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Author Topic: 24 bit > 16 bit  (Read 26405 times)

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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2007, 10:04:00 PM »
I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample.  In other words, instead of graphing a curve using only (for example) 16 dots or points, now we have significantly more data points along the same curve, making it a much more accurate representation of the original analog soundwave.  If this is not really the case, then I understand the argument for sticking with 16 bits, but as mentioned above, while most people today (including me) do not have 24 bit playback systems, the difference is akin to that between old TV and HDTV.  What we may be doing now is archiving for the future, when 24 bit playback will be the norm.  It would have been nice to just have had DATs at Dead shows from the beginning, but imagine if we had today's equipment available back then.  If we really are not capturing more information and resolution, then I would like to know it, and would appreciate further responses from those of you out there who clearly have superior technical knowledge.
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2007, 11:43:11 PM »
I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample. 

<snip>


So, too, do I believe.  It is pretty simple mathematics.  I am not sure that I could hear the difference in a true double blind test.  I have not tried it yet.  But better ears should be able to hear it.  FWIW, a pro forum has recommended I record bluegrass in 24/96 rather than 24/48 to capture the complex overtones of bluegrass.  If bluegrass has complex overtones, a symphonic orchestra has to be off the charts.  I have the ability to do that with my hardware.  But I do wonder if it is overkill.  The same forum has argued that 24/96 is just a waste of bandwidth.  Well, when I have normalized and dithered I can save it resampled as 16/44.1 and see what I have.  No A-B test will be possible.

Oh, well.  Life in the tape lane.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2007, 12:17:26 AM »
IMO, in this case, the bigger the better...  More data equals better sound...

T

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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2007, 12:59:44 AM »
IMO, in this case, the bigger the better...  More data equals better sound...

T



No person, other than Ohm, has caused more debate in audio than Nyquist.  I think I have seen some debates here about whether 44.1 is enough, or 48, or 96 KHz sampling, and that 96, which is an 48KHz upper limit is useless and so on.  My name is been it and I'm not in it.

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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2007, 02:07:30 AM »
Yes, bigger is better, but when we get past the hearing limits of humans (20000 Hz for youngsters, maybe 16kHz for me...) the improvement can not be heard (sampling rates over 44.1 kHz). Some argue that music has overtones which cause lower frequency interference signals and it is true, but by recording up to the hearing limits we do catch all those signals we can hear! Using 96kHz might, might be usefull with heavy editing, specially with slow down effects. 24 bits is usefull from levels setting point of view, but for the final product 16 bits is good enough. Like I said before, hardly anybody has listening systems or spaces to utilize even that. It is not the 16 bits that set the limits, analog systems, microphones and loudspeaker/room systems are the bottlenecks. It just so much easier and cheaper to use 24 bits and "hear" the difference than use $100000 to refurbish the living room to state of the art studio level.
----------

One more observation about the bit depth and dynamic range/"resolution" connection. The A/D converter is a linear device; double the voltage = double the sample value, which simply means one more bit in binary system. That gives the 6 dB/bit result. If we would like to use this 16 -> 24 bit depth improvement for more "accuracy" or something, we would have to compress the analog signal before digitizing, then expand it in analog domain again. This would cause much more damage to the waveform than just digitizing it raw like we do.

And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2007, 02:31:17 AM »

And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

Frequencies over 50KHz have been verified on analog recordings.  16/44.1 is arguably the worst invention in the history of recorded music, completely short-sighted and profit-driven.  I'm not saying 24/96 is the answer either, but saying there's no people can't discern the difference between analog and 16/44.1 couldn't be further from the truth.

BTW, welcome to TS.com.

Chris
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 03:02:23 AM by cshepherd »

Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2007, 04:20:59 AM »

And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

Frequencies over 50KHz have been verified on analog recordings.  16/44.1 is arguably the worst invention in the history of recorded music, completely short-sighted and profit-driven.  I'm not saying 24/96 is the answer either, but saying there's no people can't discern the difference between analog and 16/44.1 couldn't be further from the truth.

BTW, welcome to TS.com.

Chris

To clarify: discern between analog form mic/turntable and the same signal that has gone thorough AD/DA conversion at 16/44.1 quality.

I can tell analog recording from 16/44.1 digital any day... Hiss, wobble, harmonic distortion...

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BTW ,thanks...

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2007, 02:29:38 PM »
thats close, but you really should be thinking of sample rate, not bit depth as 'more points on the line'. In addition to providing higher top frequency, more points more closely approximates a true analog waveform.

bit depth is all about headroom and dynamic range, and the elimination of low-level artifacts.



I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample.  In other words, instead of graphing a curve using only (for example) 16 dots or points, now we have significantly more data points along the same curve, making it a much more accurate representation of the original analog soundwave.  If this is not really the case, then I understand the argument for sticking with 16 bits, but as mentioned above, while most people today (including me) do not have 24 bit playback systems, the difference is akin to that between old TV and HDTV.  What we may be doing now is archiving for the future, when 24 bit playback will be the norm.  It would have been nice to just have had DATs at Dead shows from the beginning, but imagine if we had today's equipment available back then.  If we really are not capturing more information and resolution, then I would like to know it, and would appreciate further responses from those of you out there who clearly have superior technical knowledge.
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Offline BC

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2007, 03:02:23 PM »
And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

I would think that some people would be able to distinguish between analog/16-44.1 and between 16-44.1/24-96. Just because some people cannot distinguish does not mean that they are indistinguishable for everyone.

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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2007, 03:30:36 PM »
I would say the jump from 16 to 24 bit has been the 2/nd greatest improvement to my lineage so far with new mics being number one. I heard the difference right away and still think my shows are better even after I dither to 16bit. One thing I have not been able to tell the difference is the sample rate from 48khz to 96khz but I have not done a A-B test so I am not 100% sure. I have done 24 bit 96 one time so far and I was running MS and noticed it makes the files real large and hard to work with so I decided to change to 48 instead. I am a believer of preserving the show the best one can archive but I think 24 48 is about right for my preference.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2007, 03:33:15 PM »
thats close, but you really should be thinking of sample rate, not bit depth as 'more points on the line'. In addition to providing higher top frequency, more points more closely approximates a true analog waveform.

bit depth is all about headroom and dynamic range, and the elimination of low-level artifacts.



I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample.  In other words, instead of graphing a curve using only (for example) 16 dots or points, now we have significantly more data points along the same curve, making it a much more accurate representation of the original analog soundwave.  If this is not really the case, then I understand the argument for sticking with 16 bits, but as mentioned above, while most people today (including me) do not have 24 bit playback systems, the difference is akin to that between old TV and HDTV.  What we may be doing now is archiving for the future, when 24 bit playback will be the norm.  It would have been nice to just have had DATs at Dead shows from the beginning, but imagine if we had today's equipment available back then.  If we really are not capturing more information and resolution, then I would like to know it, and would appreciate further responses from those of you out there who clearly have superior technical knowledge.

I'm with jerryfreak on this one.  From what gratefulphish is desribing -- more data points to better describe the curve of the analog waveform -- sounds to me like he is taking about sampling frequency.  More bits of data means a better ability to transcribe analog audio is true, but there are two different ways to get more bits, and each one effects a different aspect of the analog audio.  The bit depth, going to 24bits, only addresses the amplitude of the audio -- so how loud or soft the music is.  Thus, just as has been said -- more bit depth allows for greater dynamic range.

Bit depth has nothing to do with describing the frequency of the analog signal, which is a time function.  Greater resolution in bit depth has nothing to do with increased frequency resolution -- that increased resolution is the result of a higher sampling frequency like 96khz.

This document is pretty helpful:

http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/pdfs/audaudioprimer.pdf

Also, I haven't thoroughly read through this thread so I might have missed it.  As people have said, recording at 24bits is better if you want to do any post-processing.  But another reason to record at 24bits rather than at 16bits even if you will be dithering to 16bits is the quality of the dithering available to you in your field recording equipment.  At this point, much of the available ICs used internally in our recorders/ADs will be 24bit.  To record at 16bits, the recorder will need to dither down the 24bit data to 16bit data. 

The quality of these dither routines varies, and different equipment mfgs and software vendors use different routines -- Sony's SBM process, Apogee's UVHR process, Grace's ANSR method, etc.  The quality of say the UA-5's on-board dither process might not be as good (or as good sounding to any particular individual's ears) as a dither process available via s/w.  Wavelab in particular has licensed Apogee's UVHR dither process, so dithering from 24>16 in post using Wavelab might sound noticably better than whatever dither routine your AD or recorder uses.
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Offline live2496

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2007, 05:13:40 PM »
The bit depth helps with the dynamic range.

If we think of each bit being about 6db, you have more levels to represent the signal strength and polarity at any instant in time.

It doesn't give you extra loudness, but it does the opposite in that it gives you greater detail of sounds you wouldn't normally hear (that would be otherwise masked by noise.) Things to listen for are decay of sounds and reverb tails.
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2007, 05:20:19 PM »
The bit depth helps with the dynamic range.

If we think of each bit being about 6db, you have more levels to represent the signal strength and polarity at any instant in time.

It doesn't give you extra loudness, but it does the opposite in that it gives you greater detail of sounds you wouldn't normally hear (that would be otherwise masked by noise.) Things to listen for are decay of sounds and reverb tails.

Yeah, but good is more "detail" if at the same time you add more "noise"?  You add eight extra bits going from 16->24 bit, but what if those extra eight bits are just random?  The equipment has to have a noise floor lower than -96dB to take advantage of those extra bits.  What is the best rated ADC out there?  They rate the SNR, that is, what is the ratio of converter noise to the maximum input (0dB FS).  The highest ones are, what, 108dB?  That is something like 18 bits, right?

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Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2007, 05:27:35 PM »
<<< just go record >>>

Exactly.  I'm just trying to dispell some myths out there.  Everyone thinks more bits/higher sampling rate/etc are better, when in reality there are lots of other things in the signal chain that are limiting us...

Back to recording from my hat...

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Offline Todd R

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2007, 05:42:31 PM »
<<< just go record >>>

:lol:  Yep, good advice there.  Though if I could just record when I wanted, I'd probably skip my time at ts.com and spend it recording.  But I can be at work and check ts.com, even when I can't sneak away to do some recording. ;) 

For now anyway -- just got a notice that our firm is starting the process of blocking sites that are not appropriate to our business function.  Sure hope that doesn't mean ts.com is going bye-bye. :o
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