Topic: does this sound F***'d up?

[Nick's Picks]

wondering about this recording I made.
check this file out.

this is the new Peluso P2, in Mid-Side mode (omni M).
the apogee is also in M-S mode, and I am mixing on the fly.

the cable I made to peluso spec (my first suspect), ...5pin with pins 1+,2-(upper/right) 3g 4+,5-(lower/left).
everything is pined out correct...I just triple checked it.  Apparently this is some standard ??
any way, the recording sounds like  its out of phase.......and it shouldn't be.
my stereo is all wired correctly, and everything else is fine.
the recording just sounds like it has too much depth and width.

way too much side info in addition to the omni MID info and an empty room ?  The stage was really deep.  It seems to reproduce on playback the size/depth of the stage and musicians..but its like in real scale...and my living room isn't that wide.
what' are your thoughts? (please)
www.nickspicks.com/MUSIC/p2.flac
something just doesn't sound right to me.

uploading now (68mb)
give it 30min or so.

I've got to do some more testing w/this sucker.

[JasonR]

Can you run a test recording of the raw Mid and Side components?  That will help establish where the problem is.

For reference, Mid should end up on Channel 1, and Side on Channel 2.  The Side channel should have a positive phase for sounds arriving from the *left* of the microphone.  With a separate figure 8 mic, there's usually an indicator that shows which part of the mic should be on the left side of the soundstage.  On Schoeps mics, this is a red dot, but I can't speak to others... or how this would apply to your P2.

- Jason

[JasonR]

BTW - I would begin any M-S tests with a directional mid.

[BWolf]

are you sure having both in M/S mode is correct.  aren't you undoing the M/S encoding by putting it through 2 MS processes?

[Nick's Picks]

the side info is always the right channel, on all of my software decoding apps any way.
so that is how I have always run it (and understand it to be).

the apogee, in m-s mode is not only controlling the mid gain and side width, it is mixing it and outputting stereo xy.

I've run mics like the lsd2 w/this method and been very happy w/the results...many times over.
this one just sounds fishy to me.

[BWolf]

does the peluso have a decoding/controller box? 

[Nick's Picks]

no.
its the raw MS info going in, the XY coming out.
i'm not thinking the problem is in the process....

i'm still leaning towards the cable.  but...maybe this is just the way the recording came out and nothings wrong at all.
thats why I wanted some folks to hear it and report back.

I took this very file, opened it in wavlab, inverted the phase (to see if it "snapped" into place)..., and it sounded worse after this.
didn't even sound like it put it out of phase...or back into phase.  just sort of fucked up.
weird stuff.

[George2]

I've wired up an AKG C-33 stereo mic once and have made various 5 pin cables.
I always remembered it as having pin 1 ground, or shield. Double check your pin-out against the factor cable  with a multi-meter.
If wired wrong, it's still gonna work though.
Only process MS one time. If you have done it during the recording, pan the 2 channels more toward mon/center to reduce the stereo width or hole in the center.
And. how is the Peluso compared to the Studio Projects?

[JasonR]

The only good test you're going to get is by recording the raw mid and side components... as you said, mid on channel 1 (aka Left) and side on channel 2 (right), with the + phase of the figure-8 pointed to the left of the soundstage.  Just record yourself speaking or something.  Take a look at the results in the software - should be more gain on the mid typically.  Test a quick M-S decode in the software and it should be clear if the mic and cables are working as intended.  A phase reversal at any point would certainly cause the problems you describe... just gotta narrow it down to mics, cables, pre or recorder.

- Jason

[Nick's Picks]

unfortunately, the factory cable is 5 > 5 > power supply (AC power) > 2x 3pin output, and I can't "ping" them out w/the multimeeter (first thing I tried)

[SmokinJoe]

Yes, it doesn't seem quite right.  Listening to my tape as a comparison, mine sounds "wide", and your's sounds "deep".   I recorded raw MID/Side (as Left/Right) and mixed them to XY at home.

Some uneducated musings...
1) If you mixed MS mode on the fly with the Apogee, that creates XY type output, and you're done, right?  No special decoding on the computer required.
2) If you had the cable +/-'s right, but mixed up the L/R cables=bottom/top=M/S, the M/S would be swapped into the Apogee, so instead of the apogee mixing "M-S=RightChannel", you would have "S-M=RightChannel".  That would definitely be wierd, and would probably be like an XY with a phase swap.
3) Another possibility would be a mix up of the pattern switches on the body compared to the top and bottom caps.  I know I get confused on the LSD2.  i.e. you somehow had figure 8 front-to-back on the bottom cap instead of side-to-side on the top cap.  It sounds awfully mono, which that would tend to do.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 15 minutes later ~~~~~~~~~~
I don't think my idea #2 is correct.  I just swapped my mid/side=L/R channels before running it through the MS decoder and it doesn't come out sounding like yours at all.  In theory anyway, that would be a representation of that idea.

[Nick's Picks]

to answer:
1:  yes  output of the apogee is the final product
2. right...
3. I thought of that too, but checked it on stage *before* the real drinking started.

[Nick's Picks]

is there a 5pin stereo "standard" pinout ?
I see other cables offered in this config (5pin female > 2x 3pin male).  I need to call those companies and see how they are making them.
I found a standard for 5pin video XLR related stuff.

[SmokinJoe]

How are the 5 pin cables for an AT-825 wired?  I'm not saying that should be held up as a gold standard of excellence, just that it's been around for a long time, and is probably a stock item for some cable manufacturers.  I would think Mr. Peluso would just use some existing pinout instead of reinventing the wheel.

[J.Maye]

just gotta narrow it down to mics, cables, pre or recorder.

- Jason

Is that all?