Topic: mics directly into recorder question (at943 4.7k/853/ssdsm6; r-1;r09;iriverh120

[Roving Sign]

Regarding the stock mini-plug version from Sound Professionals (853/943/933)

I have had significant distortion with the AT943(bodies)/AT-ADAPT/853(capsules).   I also had significant distortion with the 943 with microline capsules.  I experienced significant improvement in my recordings when using the 4.7k modification.

Perhaps some semantic confusion here? - I think you guys might be talking about different kinds of "distortion"?

You may well have less distortion after the mod due to the level reduction (which is sort of a side-effect) - your preamp might be happier with less input - and thus distort less.  Even though the mics themselves might not be performing "better"

I think Chris is measuring the less audible harmonic distortion....

[Church-Audio]

Regarding the stock mini-plug version from Sound Professionals (853/943/933)

I have had significant distortion with the AT943(bodies)/AT-ADAPT/853(capsules).   I also had significant distortion with the 943 with microline capsules.  I experienced significant improvement in my recordings when using the 4.7k modification.

Perhaps some semantic confusion here? - I think you guys might be talking about different kinds of "distortion"?

You may well have less distortion after the mod due to the level reduction (which is sort of a side-effect) - your preamp might be happier with less input - and thus distort less.  Even though the mics themselves might not be performing "better"

I think Chris is measuring the less audible harmonic distortion....

I am measuring distortion at 1k and also wide band the full spectrum from 20hz to 20khz. And its audible. I am not measuring the output of a preamp. I use a battery box to test the mics straight into a 10k input that can handle +5 db then I apply a 1k signal to the mic via a transducer and I measure the distortion at the Mics output.
7% distortion is something you can hear. And thats only at 1k at lower frequencies the number is much higher. I use 1k because its the industry standard for distortion measurement.

Chris

Here is a graph of a AT 853 mic STOCK wired 2 wire with a 1 k signal applied at 114db notice the distortion is 10% that's very high... And you will be able to hear it. The first picture is how the mic looks after the 4.7k mod. The second picture is before the 4.7k mod notice the in band level changes by about 12 db from one to the other.
But the distortion as a percentage goes from 10% to 0.5%



This clearly shows that the stock 853 is not good at handling loud sound pressure when wired 2 wire * and NEVER should have been made and sold as a two wire mic. But my mod fixes that problem and allows you the same benefits of three wire but with only 2 wire.

[Church-Audio]

Regarding the stock mini-plug version from Sound Professionals (853/943/933)

I have had significant distortion with the AT943(bodies)/AT-ADAPT/853(capsules).   I also had significant distortion with the 943 with microline capsules.  I experienced significant improvement in my recordings when using the 4.7k modification.

I have noticed that the 853 distorts sooner, but in my experience with about 10 pairs of AT's, the 4.7k and 2.2k will help the recordings.  I think even if you are not having distortion problems the lower sensitivity that this mod provides will keep the rest of your signal chain from overloading in loud situations.  Lets face it, people are not using professional preamps like the grace or apogee boxes with these mics.  Also, having a 4k2 or 2k2 in there better mimics the 3wire powering of the typical configuration of these mics.

Now, knowing a little bit about why Sound Professionals decided to offer this 4.7k/low sensitivity/Church mod, I can agree with Church that they are not testing the distortion before and after in any scientific way.  I can say there is real world results showing the benefit in sound to either 853 or 943.

I certainly don't have the credentials that Mr. Church does and I respect his work, but I have seen the benefits from the 4.7k mod on my 943 mics, so I disagree on this topic. 

Now, I will be willing to blindly agree with Mr. Church on any topic here, if he gets the "Church Transformer Preamp" done in the next few months.....   

Lets just say I am working on it lol...
Ok I am not saying that there are not some 943 mics that could benefit. There are some factors to this like for example the mics sensitivity * this changes from mic to mic so this could account for the differences between some 943 mics also when you put a 853 cap on your going to get more distortion because of the diaphragm not being as tolerant to high SPL as the 943 diaphragm is.. So what I would say is this.. if anyone wants to get the mod done send the mics to me I will measure them for FREE... if you need it I will tell you if you dont then you dont. If the mod is needed I charge $15.00 per mic set. But that includes me measuring your mics. The other advantage is I can also at the same time tell you exactly how far off your  "matched pair"  is Most are off by at least 3 db when you know how far they are off you can apply the appropriate amount of boost the the weaker side and restore your stereo image. That makes a huge different to the quality of your recordings.

Chris

[Javier Cinakowski]

T+ there Chris, that response make sense to me and a great offer to test peoples mics...

[Alchemy]

I think it really depends on how loud the show is going to be. I think that the 853 is a great mic but when wired two wire with out any mods distorts rather easily. The 943 mics DO not require this mod.. If you have done it to these mics you have actually degraded the performance. The 853 on the other hand would benefit. From my mod but again you should use your 943 once you unmod them for quiet stuff direct in. And your modified 853 mics for loud shows. So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.

Chris

Thanks for the answers.  I thought all of the ATs (831; 853; and 943) benefit from the 4.7k mod?  Why does it degrade the performance of the 943s?  I pretty much only tape loud rock shows (and also have a pair of trustworthy 831s that I intend to keep unmodded). 

Most of the 943 mics I have measured actually have a very similar performance to a modified mic. So by adding the resistors to a mic that already has good overload performance you are actually downgrading the mics. I know there are a few places doing my mod to mics and they really have no idea what they are doing because they have no way of actually measuring the distortion performance of the mic in the first place. I have invested a time and money into making sure that I could accurately measure distortion of a microphone * not an easy task * and all of the 943s I have measured never needed the mod. The 831 and the 853 will both benefit from it thought.

Chris

But yet the AT943s definitely benefit from a 3 wire battery box. There are several samples available as evidence of this.
So for 943s, you are better off with 3 wire powering instead of the mod.

[Church-Audio]

I think it really depends on how loud the show is going to be. I think that the 853 is a great mic but when wired two wire with out any mods distorts rather easily. The 943 mics DO not require this mod.. If you have done it to these mics you have actually degraded the performance. The 853 on the other hand would benefit. From my mod but again you should use your 943 once you unmod them for quiet stuff direct in. And your modified 853 mics for loud shows. So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.

Chris

Thanks for the answers.  I thought all of the ATs (831; 853; and 943) benefit from the 4.7k mod?  Why does it degrade the performance of the 943s?  I pretty much only tape loud rock shows (and also have a pair of trustworthy 831s that I intend to keep unmodded). 

Most of the 943 mics I have measured actually have a very similar performance to a modified mic. So by adding the resistors to a mic that already has good overload performance you are actually downgrading the mics. I know there are a few places doing my mod to mics and they really have no idea what they are doing because they have no way of actually measuring the distortion performance of the mic in the first place. I have invested a time and money into making sure that I could accurately measure distortion of a microphone * not an easy task * and all of the 943s I have measured never needed the mod. The 831 and the 853 will both benefit from it thought.

Chris

But yet the AT943s definitely benefit from a 3 wire battery box. There are several samples available as evidence of this.
So for 943s, you are better off with 3 wire powering instead of the mod.

Most people that run the 943 run it three wire. But all of the ones I have played with maybe 10  pairs when wired two wire had the same exact distortion figures as my modifyed mics. I would be willing to check out another pair if anyone wants to send me one. I am really curious now. My offer still stands I will test anyones mic for free just pay for return shipping..

Chris

[Alchemy]

I would actually do this as I have the AT943s now. But I have the miniXLR connectors at the end of mine (they are seperated) so I'm not much of a help. And I really don't want to go back to two wire. Chris, though, your mod works great for the 853s! (according to Will's samples anyway in post #2...) It sucks that Sound Pro stole it.

[Will_S]

So under the right circumstances BOTH your mics could be used with your R-09 for super stealth. The iriver is not a great choice only because of its low plug in power voltage. The r09 puts out 5 volts which is plenty.

Hmm, again I think you should know better than me but I could swear I've seen posts measuring the iRiver's plug-in-power unloaded as 3.7V (and you have a post somewhere calling it 4) and illconditioned has measured the R09 unloaded at 2.5V.  Does the iRiver really do poorly with a load, or could you be thinking of another recorder?

FWIW I don't notice much difference between R09 and iRiver used with the same mics in post #2.  Maybe these shows weren't loud enough for the difference to be apparent...I've certainly been to louder rock shows (eg Springsteen in a hockey arena) but I was definitely glad to have my earplugs for both shows.

[paulbaptiste]

very informative thread, i have modded 853's (granted never heard them otherwise) and an iriver so am thankfull, and intersted in this thread continuing.  +T

[Javier Cinakowski]

But yet the AT943s definitely benefit from a 3 wire battery box. There are several samples available as evidence of this.
So for 943s, you are better off with 3 wire powering instead of the mod.

The 4.7k mod creates a similar powering situation to running three wire, this is the magic of the 4.7k mod.  It allows you to get the benefits of running 3-wire, in a  1/8" plug..  I havn't seen any difference in sound using a 3-wire or 4.7k mod, in either 853 or 943.  It does seem that the 943 is less likely to distort, but that doesn't sugest that 3-wire is any better than 4.7k...  I am just a hobbiest, so someone with some technical knowledge might want to chime in with some thoughts...

[Church-Audio]

But yet the AT943s definitely benefit from a 3 wire battery box. There are several samples available as evidence of this.
So for 943s, you are better off with 3 wire powering instead of the mod.

The 4.7k mod creates a similar powering situation to running three wire, this is the magic of the 4.7k mod.  It allows you to get the benefits of running 3-wire, in a  1/8" plug..  I havn't seen any difference in sound using a 3-wire or 4.7k mod, in either 853 or 943.  It does seem that the 943 is less likely to distort, but that doesn't sugest that 3-wire is any better than 4.7k...  I am just a hobbiest, so someone with some technical knowledge might want to chime in with some thoughts...

The only advantage of 2 wire with my mod over three wire is the cost of the connectors and the fact that you can now use your mic directly with a recorder like a r-09 WITH NO other boxes for really loud situations. And pretty much anyone with some basic skills with a soldering iron can do it. You get 1.5 db more gain over three wire as well.

[red]

Thanks again everyone for the responses.  Chris, once things calm down a little for me I may take you up on your offer, and send you my 853s and 943s, along with their various caps, for some testing.

For me, one huge advantage of the 4.7k mod, as opposed to 3-wire mod, is the interchangeability of gear.  As I already owned a few SP battery boxes and 1/8"plug 831s, I wanted to keep my options and versatility open, hence my interest in the 4.7k mod. 

It seems like there's consensus that some modification is needed for the 853s; and there's hot debate on whether it's necessary for (all) 943s, and whether it might actually somehow "degrade" the performance of the 943s.  If I weren't already overloaded on mics I'd definitely try out some Church mics!

[bbernardini]

Please forgive my newbie-like intrusion into this thread...being a budget-minded sort, would CoreSound Low Cost Binaurals work with the plug power of the R-09?

[Church-Audio]

Please forgive my newbie-like intrusion into this thread...being a budget-minded sort, would CoreSound Low Cost Binaurals work with the plug power of the R-09?

You should ask Len at Core sound I am sure he will be happy to answer that one. I am pretty sure any well made microphone plug in power mic will work with the edirols mic input.

Chris

[red]

I continue to hunt around for some more insight on the 4.7k mod and at943's and I came across this thread:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,78509

I'm still interested in anyone's further thoughts on whether the 4.7k mod actually "degrades" the performance of at943's in any way.  I'm still trying to learn stuff myself and I appreciate all of the effort and ideas people share on this site (even if people don't always agree totally on things).