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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: john e. bogus on October 20, 2010, 11:42:56 AM
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Ok, this is my first post here, but some of you will surely know me from elsewhere in the past. What a way to celebrate 25 years of taping....ugh. In late 2008 my D7 died, and my choice of replacement was the MTII, purchased in early 2009. Now, 3 months after the warranty ran out, the MTII is dead and I'm stuck with a $200 paperweight (and will NEVER buy another M-Audio product again). As an active taper, I need to purchase another deck (ok, I guess we're calling them recorders these days) quickly and cheaply. In years past, the choices were simple...."you need the D6" or "you need any of the Sony portable DAT decks". Now it seems there are dozens and dozens of small recorders available, but no obvious choice as to which is *the* recorder to get. The MTII seemed to be the obvious choice since it had a digital input for transferring DATs, was capable of 24/96, and the price was right....but I need something that will last, especially since $200 is a lot of money to me (I'm poor, I'll admit). What can I get for $200 or less (preferably less, since I just made this expenditure last year, and now have to make it all over again) that isn't junk? I really liked the MTII's digital input and stealthability.....but it dosen't appear that such an all-around solution is available in my price range. Is there anything out there that is a "respectable" stealth recorder that is capable of 24/96, affordable, and will actually last more than 15 months? I don't want anything with cheesy built-in mics (useless....how are you supposed to use these and keep the deck well-hidden? all they do is take up extra space and add to the cost of the deck). I want to either have a decently sized internal memory / hard drive, or be able to swap out memory cards for more recording time. Stealthability is a must, yet I want to be able to get all the performance that I can (at least to the point of it being considered a "respectable and serious" deck), since I have a pair of Nak 300's that I run in taping allowed situations. The MR-1 appeared to be an acceptable solution (stealthy, and an input stage worthy of 24/96 transfers of my old analog masters) but these no longer seem to be available at the reasonable prices they were selling for on closeout. Would I do best by looking for a used MR-1? (I have no problems with buying used if the deal is square....that was the only way I was able to afford a D7) Or is there another respectable stealth recorder available for the limited amount that I have to spend? I'm obviously not going to find anything with a digital input in my price range, so I'll need to also come up with an affordable way to transfer my DAT masters....I saw something called an ESI U24XL mentioned in another thread, and the price is right.....but is it bit-perfect, or does it resample the input? I'll admit that I'm distressed by my situation (I really can't afford to just go out and buy another deck, especially since I just did that last year) and very confused by all of the many choices in the low end of the market, with none of them being the obvious way to go (no one seems to publish meaningful specifications anymore).....I've already torn enough of my hair out over this situation, so perhaps someone here can tell me what is and what isn't....
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Sony M10 is a little over $200 at Amazon. Your search is over. Most of the decks have internal mics, but most of us that record concerts prefer to run external mics.
Sorry about your M-Audio experience. I learned so much from this board to steer away from their products.
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Why would you recommend the M-10 over a used MR-1, or any of the dozens of other recorders in that price class?
Yes, I was well aware of the mixed comments regarding the MTII....but aside from it having all the features I wanted in one product at an affordable price, another taper who I personally know and trust has one had nothing but good things to say about it (and still does), so I gambled - and lost. I suppose what upsets me so much about that experience was that I expected to get what I paid for.....I paid $300 for a D6, and it lasted me for 12 years.....I paid $300 for a used D7, and that lasted me for 8 years.....$200 for a recorder that didn't even have any moving parts and failed in 15 months just dosen't make me feel like I got my money's worth at all....not to mention several lost recordings, and several shows coming up at the end of the month that I want to tape....
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The M10 is highly fluffed on this board. I have in the past owned a R09 and R09HR and now own an M10. Best recorder yet in terms of battery power, user friendly functions, nice big screen, good meters, ADC, etc. Not a lot of negatives.
No experience with an MR-1, but there may be folks here that left an MR-1 to go to the M10.
Here's a review of the MR-1:
http://www.sonicstudios.com/mr-1revw.htm
2.5 hours of battery life?! No thanks.
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The M10 is highly fluffed on this board. I have in the past owned a R09 and R09HR and now own an M10. Best recorder yet in terms of battery power, user friendly functions, nice big screen, good meters, ADC, etc. Not a lot of negatives.
No experience with an MR-1, but there may be folks here that left an MR-1 to go to the M10.
The MR-1 has 1 glaring flaw and a bunch of annoyances: power management is the serious issue. It can't handle an ultra hot signal, it has a scroll wheel for volume (I can't remember if it locks or not), and it has a hard disk (which I see as a liability in vibration intensive environments). The R-09HR can't handle a super hot signal, but resolves the other two. The M-10 can handle a really hot signal, but has a rotary wheel for volume that doesn't lock. None of them are flawless, so it's a matter of what bothers you the most.
The R-09 and M-10 are essentially where the choice is currently, but the king of the hill selection changes about every 9-12 months it seems.
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I was looking at the mr-1 prior to the sony m10 and it seems nice because it has the 1 bit digital audio which (i read) is the equivalent to RAW in photos but this thing doesn't have digital in via coax or optical. Why would a 1 bit digital audio recorder not have that? I also heard and read about the short battery life of the recorder.
the m10 doesn't have digital but I don't mind that and the battery life is outstanding. I just replaced the batteries in mine and I had the unit since april/may.
let me say it another way, if you buy the m10 and are not satisfied, sell it on this board and someone will buy it.
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I was looking at the mr-1 prior to the sony m10 and it seems nice because it has the 1 bit digital audio which (i read) is the equivalent to RAW in photos but this thing doesn't have digital in via coax or optical. Why would a 1 bit digital audio recorder not have that? I also heard and read about the short battery life of the recorder.
What amp would you feed a DSD signal from? Second, if I remember correctly, DSD uses three connectors per stereo pair (L, R, WC) and the MR-1 is a tiny recorder. The entire point of the korg was DSD as far as I can tell. They weren't interested in maintaining SPDIF which was a competing transport format/standard in their mind.
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Yes, the MR-1 is not without it's flaws, but I don't see them as terribly difficult to overcome. A friend has one, and I borrowed it several times while I was in between the D7 and MTII....the internal battery lasted about 35 mins on a full charge, and the hot signal from my stealth mics brickwalled the input. I was able to find a USB battery pack that I used with the MTII, and the 4xAA pack is available for the MR-1, so I don't view the battery as too strong of a negative. The MTII brickwalled with my stealth mics as well, so I built a 15db attenuator pad into the battery box, so that wouldn't be a real issue as well. I didn't have any brickwalling problems with either the MR-1 or the MTII when running the Nak 300's. I see the strongest negative of the MR-1 as the finite space of the internal hard drive, instead of being able to just keep swapping out replaceable memory cards.....but I understand that it is possible to mod it with a larger hard drive. I got stuck in the middle of a mosh pit with the MR-1, and didn't have any problems with vibration or being knocked around. To me, the biggest reason I would consider an MR-1 is that the A/D section is supposedly "the one to beat", and would thus be extremely well suited for high quality 24/96 transfers of my old cassette masters (just as the digital input was the strongest selling point for the MTII, for transferring my DAT masters). The question is whether I can find something in my price range that has an A/D stage that is anywhere near as respectable as that of the MR-1, if I have to give up having a digital input on the deck.
The R-09 seems to be well regarded as far as it's A/D and overall performance, but it has those cheesy built in mics that do nothing but make the deck larger, and I've heard nothing but awful things about their tech support and how hard the company is to deal with if you want technical information or repair parts. So I wouldn't want to consider the R-09 for those reasons.
Unlike Edirol / Roland and M-Audio, I've had excellent dealings with Sony's tech support in the past....very willing to stand behind their products by getting a human being on the phone easily who will gladly answer technical questions and provide information, very easy to get repair parts and service manuals from. On the other hand, Sony loves using nonstandard connectors and other propriatary crap these days....haven't researched the M-10 yet, so don't know yet if this is an issue or not. I suppose as a worst case, a piece of gaffer tape can be used on the level control if it is easy to knock out of adjustment. But the bottom line would be how the A/D stage compares with the MR-1....would it be considered merely adequate enough? Or would it be considered highly regarded and respected enough to be desirable for high quality 24/96 transfers of my old cassette masters?
Yes, it seems that none of these new tapeless recorders are flawless....that's what makes the whole thing so frustrating, there dosen't seem to be an obvious and clear cut choice like there was in the old days!
What about this ESI U24XL? Is this thing known to be bit-perfect?
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What amp would you feed a DSD signal from?
Well I suppose if it had coax digital input, something like a v3 could be used or the new sound devices USB 2. I don't know about the connectors DSD requires, sorry.
good luck to john to find something that meets his requirements.
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Yes, the MR-1 is not without it's flaws, but I don't see them as terribly difficult to overcome. A friend has one, and I borrowed it several times while I was in between the D7 and MTII....the internal battery lasted about 35 mins on a full charge, and the hot signal from my stealth mics brickwalled the input. I was able to find a USB battery pack that I used with the MTII, and the 4xAA pack is available for the MR-1, so I don't view the battery as too strong of a negative. The MTII brickwalled with my stealth mics as well, so I built a 15db attenuator pad into the battery box, so that wouldn't be a real issue as well. I didn't have any brickwalling problems with either the MR-1 or the MTII when running the Nak 300's. I see the strongest negative of the MR-1 as the finite space of the internal hard drive, instead of being able to just keep swapping out replaceable memory cards.....but I understand that it is possible to mod it with a larger hard drive. I got stuck in the middle of a mosh pit with the MR-1, and didn't have any problems with vibration or being knocked around. To me, the biggest reason I would consider an MR-1 is that the A/D section is supposedly "the one to beat", and would thus be extremely well suited for high quality 24/96 transfers of my old cassette masters (just as the digital input was the strongest selling point for the MTII, for transferring my DAT masters). The question is whether I can find something in my price range that has an A/D stage that is anywhere near as respectable as that of the MR-1, if I have to give up having a digital input on the deck.
The R-09 seems to be well regarded as far as it's A/D and overall performance, but it has those cheesy built in mics that do nothing but make the deck larger, and I've heard nothing but awful things about their tech support and how hard the company is to deal with if you want technical information or repair parts. So I wouldn't want to consider the R-09 for those reasons.
Unlike Edirol / Roland and M-Audio, I've had excellent dealings with Sony's tech support in the past....very willing to stand behind their products by getting a human being on the phone easily who will gladly answer technical questions and provide information, very easy to get repair parts and service manuals from. On the other hand, Sony loves using nonstandard connectors and other propriatary crap these days....haven't researched the M-10 yet, so don't know yet if this is an issue or not. I suppose as a worst case, a piece of gaffer tape can be used on the level control if it is easy to knock out of adjustment. But the bottom line would be how the A/D stage compares with the MR-1....would it be considered merely adequate enough? Or would it be considered highly regarded and respected enough to be desirable for high quality 24/96 transfers of my old cassette masters? =
1) If I remember correctly, the MR-1 doesn't take power from the USB port so you will have to hack off the end and put a new plug on it.
2) If your ma draw exceeds what the power supply can offer (either wall outlet or battery), then it switches over to the internal battery but doesn't tell you... Worse, it won't switch back until you've unplugged it and replugged the power cable. The danger is if you use a USB-spec power supply, you have to guarentee that it can provide spikes and sustained 1ma (at least, I can't remember if it tops 1ma), otherwise you run the risk. Those two combined are what make power management with it such a wench to me.
As far as the M10's A/D stage, there was (IMHO) a fairly valid comp done at a phish show earlier this year and the taper posted the files for folks to compare. It's extremely difficult to find a fault with the M10 compared to the Sound Devices' 722 which many here consider the golden standard of A/D currently (any of the 7 series, but the point stands).
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The M10 has great battery life, uses microSD, and has a proven AD. I would stick with the M10 at your price point. Also if you want to go a cheaper route you might want to consider the Tascam DR07. It is cheaper than the M10 and seems fairly popular.
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I don't know about the connectors DSD requires, sorry.
No worries, I didn't either for a long time, then I saw it on a DAC and wondered why there were three connectors and someone explained it to me.
its a format I suspect wasn't designed with a lot of things in mind, and some would argue, didn't fill a real need. :-\
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I wouldn't consider the MR-1's "power management issues" to be that big of a deal....the external 4xAA pack can always be used, and I can always make a new cable to adapt the USB rechargables that I have (I'm not afraid of a soldering iron by any means)....the USB batteries have an LED indicator that gives plenty of advance warning that they are running low (btw, these are Duracell "cell phone charger" batteries...$20 at Kmart, have a flat form factor and are small, charge quickly, and powered the MTII for 3+ hours, so are excellent for inclusion in a stealth rig....recommended product)....easy enough to figure out how much running time you get, and swap out external power sources accordingly.
Interesting that the M10's A/D stage is generally considered to be a "next best thing" to the SD 722....that right there certainly says a lot, and would make me think it to be every bit of a valid and respectable alternative to the MR-1, especially considering the ability to swap out memory cards. I'll certainly have to investigate this unit. Sony is pretty good (or at least used to be) with publishing specs, so my biggest question at this point would be what the s/n ratio of the input stage is like (is it quiet enough to make all 24 bits in a recording useful?).....the MTII was questionable at best in this regard, so almost anything else is probably bound to be an improvement and thus this is probably a moot point.
There seems to be a general consensus on the M10 among those who responded here, which is certainly promising. Is there anything else in the same league that would be even cheaper? The DR07 was mentioned, but I believe that it also has those cheesy internal mics, and if I remember correctly it dosen't do 24/96, so I wouldn't consider it to be in the running.
The comment about an external A/D that provided a DSD output was interesting....what on earth could you possibly connect it to? I imagine this is some piece of studio equipment. I would argue that DSD couldn't be considered an actual format (just as LPCM is not a format, both are simply a data stream), that the format would be SACD....I own a few SACD's, and while they certainly sound great and compare favorably with high-res LPCM, unfortunately there is no way for the noncommercial user to create discs in this format and that is extremely unlikely to ever happen (Sony and their propriatary stuff again).
So now I go on to research the M10 and see if I can find reason to consider something else, and my questions at this point become:
Is there a cheaper alternative to the M10 that is in the same league, or is the M10 a clear cut choice as the way to go in this price range?
Would the ESI U24XL provide for a bit perfect transfer of my old DAT masters?
Many thanks to all of those who have responded so far.....
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Sony M10 is a little over $200 at Amazon. Your search is over. Most of the decks have internal mics, but most of us that record concerts prefer to run external mics.
Agreed.
Forget the MR-1. It will make fine recordings but would be a pain in the ass to stealth with, especially because you need an external battery pack if you are going to be recording over 2 hours or so. I liked mine when I had one, but wouldn't have dreamed of stealthing with it (though it would have been possible).
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I had no problems stealthing several times with my friend's MR-1 (even when my 2nd row position at one show turned into a mosh pit), except that my stealth mics brickwalled the input.....worked find running an external battery pack.
Ok....after reading the multiple 26-page threads on the M10 and reviewing the specs, I'll admit that I'm pretty well sold on the M10. At this point I'm rationalizing, asking myself if I really want to eat spaghetti for the next month or so in order to have one of these things in time for a show at the end of the month. The internal mics don't seem quite as obnoxious (sticking out of the end of the unit) as they are on most other models. Biggest disadvantage (other than lack of a digital input) seems to be the 1/8" stereo mic input, but at least it isn't on the side of the unit....that proved to be a big problem in the D6 (didn't hold up under years of stealthing), and to a lesser extent (due to being on the top, rather than on the side) in the D7 as well....those little 1/8" jacks just don't hold up very well, having 1/4" jacks for the line input (I almost never have need to use mic input, have always been able to get enough levels driving the line input even when running the Nak 300's) was one of the things I really liked with the MTII. Anything else I should consider before I pull the trigger on an M10?
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Go with the M10 if you can afford it.
I don't see why the extra weight/size of the internals should be an issue, if you used to schlepping an extra 4AA enclosure, which you can forget with the M10!?
And try to be rational about the DAT transfers. Skip the requirement for an all-in-one unit that does everything. Get a separate sound card or DDS drive, they can be had for dirt cheap apparently:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5329
http://web.ncf.ca/aa571/datfaq.htm
http://computers.shop.ebay.com/Tape-Drives-/39976/i.html?_nkw=%284320NT%2C4330%2CCTD-8000%2C4326NT%2C4530%2CSDT-9000%29&_dmpt=PCC_Drives_Storage_Internal&_fln=1&_sop=3&_ssov=1&_stpos=&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282&gbr=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=20
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Sony stuff tends to last...
(other than the D6C's!!) I got my first Sony MD portable in '95 for £360 and it's still going!!
My Marantz PMD-650 (£750 in 2001) lasted a month.
I wouldn't think about it too much- the M10 is a standard now...
I would live off spaghetti for a month to own it- it'll last for years...
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I would live off spaghetti for a month to own it- it'll last for years...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks about food AFTER having the perfect recorder/microphone. ;)
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PCM-M10 has up to 45 hours of battery life out of 2 xAA's. It's a kick ass recorder, intuitive, and extremely affordable. I imagine there are a few people on this list who are like me and have a mountain of old gear that they will never use again because of this recorder. The only one I'm not planning to unload is the PCM-D1, and if I had a PCM-D50, I'd keep that too.
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It seems like Sony came to its senses with the PCM-M10 after all the sins of minidisc. Standard connector (mini-USB). Standard storage (microSD). Standard formats (.wav, .mp3). And battery life like a beautiful dream. Even the built-in mics are musical sounding. And every security guy who's ever looked at it thinks it's a point-and-shoot or a smartphone.
Wait a year and there may be something even better, but I'm finally satisfied with a stealth recorder that doesn't take workarounds.
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Hey John...
Long Time No See and all that...
Looks like you already have your eyes on an MR-1.
I'm currently using 2 of them at shows, so I'm probably your best consumer advocate.
I wish the battery issue weren't an issue, but it is. My firs MR-1 holds a charge for about 20 mins now. That's it. So you can get ready, get set, then dig around for that adapter from the battery pack and make sure the switch is on-- taped on, if its in your pocket. I can't really get more than 2.5 hours out of it now before I have to power down, switch battery packs and power up again. I can do this in about 1 minute, but still, it is a pain. I'd love for Korg to sell me about 6 batteries so I can replace them myself, but Korg doesn't even want to believe that MR-1 exists now.
That said, I still love it, even if i have to have proprietary adapters made for the inputs.
The other thing that's a pain is that invariably, I record DSDIFF, which is huge. A 2-hour show can no longer be archived to a DVD. The files are just that big.
So while they are great, especially if you can get one with a 2 hr+ battery life, you will spend the money saved pretty fast on hard drives & storage for your giant files.
Oh!
And the cord to plug them in? HUGE and inconvenient. Taking 2 of those to NYC tomorrow and that is 1/2 of my audio gear bag.
But like I said, if you can get one for about $200 with a decent charge left in the battery, grab a few extra battery packs with solid batteries in them and you have a great unit. I love the interface and I can work that thing in the dark or in my pocket with no problem.
If I didn't already have one, I would not have just gotten another, and now that I have 2, if I could get one more, I would.
But since you are starting from scratch, I'd say go a different route. Korg discontinued these for a reason.
Right now the only unit I'm looking at to compete with the M10 is a Tascam DR-2D.
I don't think it really competes, but the price is the same.
I really want a PMD620. for $200, but that doesn't seem to exist.
Let us know what you decide!
jb
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Way back when the m10 was released, someone on this board was wondering why DSD wasn't incorporated with this (then) brand new recorder.
here's a reply: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1661131#msg1661131
desertsky, just to answer your question, DSD has been "dead in the water" in the professional audio market for some time now--maybe two, three years already?--and as far as I'm aware, Sony has stopped promoting it.
In carefully controlled listening tests it failed to live up to the extravagant claims that were made for its sonic qualities; it turned out not to offer any detectable audible difference from linear PCM. It was far more cumbersome for studios to edit and process, and really just didn't offer any benefit other than to the coffers of certain manufacturers.
So it's gone--not altogether forgotten yet, but not widely mourned, either, I must say.
--best regards
Sound quality of DSD vs. (24-bit/176.4 kHz) PCM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital
When comparing a DSD and PCM recording of the same origin, the same number of channels and similar bandwidth/SNR, some still think that there are differences. A study conducted at the Erik-Thienhaus Institute in Detmold, Germany, seems to contradict this, concluding that "hardly any of the subjects could make a reproducible distinction between the two encoding systems. Hence it may be concluded that no significant differences are audible."
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well that's pretty interesting...
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I've got to tell you I've never heard of DSD.
Perhaps not the right thread to ask in, but can someone give me a small paragraph crash course in what was/is involved? Connectors and Abreviations and such.
Thankyou
JimP
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Shameless plug...I have a Tascam dr2d for sale in the yard sale for 185. Nice recorder I just don't need two decks right now. I'm sticking with my pmd620.
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I've got to tell you I've never heard of DSD.
Perhaps not the right thread to ask in, but can someone give me a small paragraph crash course in what was/is involved? Connectors and Abreviations and such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital