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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: su6oxone on October 31, 2010, 02:45:50 PM
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Anyone have one of these? Saw some old threads about the older version of this recorder, but none about this newer version. It looks great, has 4gb onboard storage (enough for a night) and records at up to 24bit/48khz. Operates on AAx2 for up to 10 hours. And best of all, this this doesn't need to be stealthed in because it really does look like a mp3 player. Only issues are the price (almost $1k) and the apparent lack of recording volume controls (seems to do auto-volume adjusting), which of course would be a deal breaker.
Edit: found a review online that states the recording level is indeed adjustable using the buttons on the front face.
http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/recorders/ares-ml/index.html (http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/recorders/ares-ml/index.html)
Sensitivity
Minimum input for 0dBFS = -65dBu (micpre gain set to BST 34dB, PGA 12dB)
Minimum input for 0dBFS = -50dBu (micpre gain set to BST 19dB, PGA 12dB)
Noise
Ein = -117dBu (unweighted, 22kHz BW, micpre gain set to BST 34dB, PGA 12dB)
Ein (A) = -120dBu (A weighted, 20kHz BW, micpre gain set to BST 34dB, PGA 12dB)
Ein = -116dBu (unweighted, 22kHz BW, micpre gain set to BST 19dB, PGA 12dB)
Ein (A) = -119dBu (A weighted, 20kHz BW, micpre gain set to BST 19dB, PGA 12dB)
The small difference in Ein between the different preamp gain settings is not significant - it is less than the margin of experimental error of about ± 2dB
Overload (Mic input, 1000Hz tone)
At a preamp gain setting of 34dB Vmax = 7mVrms
At a preamp gain setting of 19dB Vmax = 38mVrms
Dimensions
(W x H x D), 125 x 53 x 24mm (without ext mic)
Weight excl batteries 200g
Current drain
160mA recording (from battery, 2x1.2V)
PiP 2.83V (2.07 loaded with 5k6)
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images345x345/675301.jpg)
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That's a lot of money for a machine that only records 4 GB (records only to its internal memory) and doesn't record above 48 khz even if it is a Nagra.
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another disadvantage is that the mic is mono. there's a stereo line input but why even have a built in mic for mono?
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another disadvantage is that the mic is mono. there's a stereo line input but why even have a built in mic for mono?
It's mostly geared towards journalists (like the Olympus recorders) and voice recording from what I read, and hence the mono built-in mic. The mic input is stereo mono AFAIK. I think the mono built-in mic allows it to stay compact in size and not have two mics angled or whatever.
That's a lot of money for a machine that only records 4 GB (records only to its internal memory) and doesn't record above 48 khz even if it is a Nagra.
True, it is pricey for 4gb. There's also a 2gb version, so maybe they'll upgrade this with a future 8gb version, which IMO is plenty of space. Even 4gb is enough for a show + opener. It would be nice if it went up to 96 but personally I would be okay with 44.1/48 since I always tape at 44.1 anyway.
If it cost maybe $5-600 it would definitely be more attrractive.
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True, it is pricey for 4gb. There's also a 2gb version, so maybe they'll upgrade this with a future 8gb version, which IMO is plenty of space. Even 4gb is enough for a show + opener. It would be nice if it went up to 96 but personally I would be okay with 44.1/48 since I always tape at 44.1 anyway.
If it cost maybe $5-600 it would definitely be more attrractive.
I don't care about 96 myself either (I 'm happy with 24/44.1 too) but with all these limitations and the fact that it's probably designed for journalists as the rasta man said, I wouldn't be interested for $300. It seems you'd just be paying for the Nagra name. Is it really going to be better for concert taping than an M10 or R-09HR? I'd rather have one of those even for similar money unless a lot of people test it and say that it has advantages making it a worth the money.
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Full details on the NAGRA-ML are HERE (http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_ares_ml.php).
It has exceptionally good mic. pres, and despite being only up to 48kHZ is likely to give far superior results to cheaper 24/96 machines.
It *does* have a stereo mic. input as you can buy a plug-in stereo mic. for it. I think there is also a stereo remote cable available - ask Nagra.
Nice unit.
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For $700 I think only Swiss reporters would buy this unit!
Looks like a nice unit but way overpriced IMO.
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I just remembered I've got a 1Gb Ares-M with the red microphone (basic stereo mic) sleeping somewhere. I might be able to do a direct comparison with a Sony PCM-M10 soon. Apart from the internal memory size and the editing capabilities it should be technically identical to the Ares-ML and Ares-MII.
I used it only for a very short period but I know I wasn't really impressed, especially considering the price. The ergonomy is quite bad and non intuitive, and I remember I wasn't able to use my Ansmann rechargeable batteries because the housing was too small (I hope it's been corrected on the ML and MII).
It's clearly stated on the battery lid that they're made in China by Infomedia, and they also obviously look like a re-branding of their PAW-120 (http://www.infomedia.net.cn/EN/NewsView.asp?AttachID=1&NID=1) (also sold under the AEQ (http://www.aeqbroadcast.com/pr_paw120.htm) brand). Nagra might have changed a bit of electronics in their version, but it's impossible to tell without having the two units and a screwdriver.
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What reporter in their right mind would spend that much money on an interview/soundbite recorder? Hell most reporters are still using mini-cassette recorders.
I still have yet to see one current Nagra product that compares with a similarly prices product from one of their competitors in form, function and sound. This Ares-ML is at least three years behind the times when compared to similar devices. The Nagra LB is twice the price of similar two track recorders. The only features they seem to offer that differs from others is bluetooth support and hot-swapping CF cards. Certainly nice additions but worth twice as much?
Even the Nagra VI is a mystery. It sits in between the Zaxcom and Aaton boxes and the smaller Sound Devices and Sonosax boxes. Seems like its only price match is the Fostex PD606 which from looking at the specs the Fostex appears to be more feature rich by a long shot than the Nagra VI. The Fostex offers an additional two channels (AES inputs) to the mix at the same price point as just one major feature to compare.
While Nagra has been around a long time in this business I just find it hard to believe that they're not just resting on their legacy when it comes to current products. What we do here for the most part makes the Aaton's, Deva's and the like overkill I still can't help but wonder who would choose one of current Nagra products when compared to their competitors at similar price ranges and feature sets. 5 to 10 years ago maybe but in 2010? No thanks.
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But they are "Swiss" made! ;D In this case Swiss outsourced!
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What reporter in their right mind would spend that much money on an interview/soundbite recorder? Hell most reporters are still using mini-cassette recorders.
One that wants broadcast quality. I have never seen a mini-cassette used by a radio reporter - what country are you in?
I still have yet to see one current Nagra product that compares with a similarly prices product from one of their competitors in form, function and sound. This Ares-ML is at least three years behind the times when compared to similar devices. The Nagra LB is twice the price of similar two track recorders. The only features they seem to offer that differs from others is bluetooth support and hot-swapping CF cards. Certainly nice additions but worth twice as much?
The LB is about the same price as a similar SD unit.
Even the Nagra VI is a mystery. It sits in between the Zaxcom and Aaton boxes and the smaller Sound Devices and Sonosax boxes. Seems like its only price match is the Fostex PD606 which from looking at the specs the Fostex appears to be more feature rich by a long shot than the Nagra VI. The Fostex offers an additional two channels (AES inputs) to the mix at the same price point as just one major feature to compare.
The Nagra VI is cheaper than the SD 788T and is an absolute superb machine. The best mic. pres in a portable, ergonomically superb and streets ahead of the others you have mentioned. Quality wise I would say it's the best there is.
While Nagra has been around a long time in this business I just find it hard to believe that they're not just resting on their legacy when it comes to current products. What we do here for the most part makes the Aaton's, Deva's and the like overkill I still can't help but wonder who would choose one of current Nagra products when compared to their competitors at similar price ranges and feature sets. 5 to 10 years ago maybe but in 2010? No thanks.
That's your opinion.
I would say that the Nagra are still streets ahead in quality (having used both the VI and the LB. The SD is close and smaller, not quite so good mic.pres (but still excellent) and with different features.
But for recording live music with no compromise, the Nagra still beats them all.
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The LB is about the same price as a similar SD unit.
The Nagra VI is cheaper than the SD 788T
It must be a currency/tariff thing because the LB in the US costs about $3,200 while the 702 (the comprable SD unit) is about $1,875. The VI on the other hand, is more than $2,000 higher than the 788T ($8,200 vs $5,995).
I would like to try either a LB or VI someday, although my next upgrade is probably to either a 744T or 788T.
In any case, what I like most about the ARES ML4 is that it doesn't have obvious internal mics and can really be passed off as a mp3 player for those tough security gate venues.
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Ahh John I should have expected a response from you. You certainly do or die with the Nagra and Rycote products. Do you get a commission from them?
I'm going to respond to your post by number instead of quoting each one in this post but you should get the jist of it.
1. I am in the US. I see quite a good number of reporters using cassette recorders still. Lots and lots of reporters, bloggers and the like still making shit for money so a Nagra for an interview isn't happening. Heck in last night's post World Series interviews I saw two reporters using the built-in mics of an iPhone.
2. The LB is at least 20% - 40% higher than any comparible SD unit. That statement from you is just wrong.
3. Yes the Nagra VI is cheaper than the 788 but with four less usable channels. Best mic pres in a portable? I'm thinking the Zaxcom and Aaton folks will have a slight disagreement with you on that one. Quality wise I think the Fostex and the aforementioned Zaxcom boxes would very much beg to differ.
4. 100% my opinion no doubt. Since I don't have the strong attachment that you do to the Nagra gear I tend to think my opinion is based on looking at the facts of the matter without prejudice towards any one brand. While I own a SD box I certainly don't think they are the only or best tree in the forest. For the price of the Nagra VI I don't think there is much of a competition when compared to the Fostex PD606. Not one spec of the Nagra appears to be more favorable than the comparably priced Fostex. I was able to fiddle with a PD606 a couple of months ago and came away very impressed with it as an example.
As for my last statement John:
While Nagra has been around a long time in this business I just find it hard to believe that they're not just resting on their legacy when it comes to current products. What we do here for the most part makes the Aaton's, Deva's and the like overkill I still can't help but wonder who would choose one of current Nagra products when compared to their competitors at similar price ranges and feature sets. 5 to 10 years ago maybe but in 2010? No thanks.
Other than being on the Nagra payroll :) where do you see the current Nagra lineup beating the competition? If you want to compare by price points the Nagra's seem to lack comparible features to others at the same price point. If you want to compare feature sets then again Nagra is behind to similar competition. Then the ergonomics? Well again there i'm having trouble finding Nagra above the competition. I don't think Nagra makes junk or are a bad company I just think that currently the competition from the lower, same and higher price points are ahead of the Nagra product line. If you set the Kool-Aid down for a second and looks at the specs, reviews and experiences of all of these products I can't fathom how you think the Nagra's are the clear winners but I am certainly willing to be convinced if possible.
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OFOTD.
Basically your argument falls short as Nagra is foremost targeting a professional market.
There are a number of radio organisations in Europe that stems back to the old national radio monopolys. One example is the BBC of England, in my part of the world it is the Swedish Radio. These typically used to have quite hefty budgets and worked with a technical department selecting and maintaing equipment used by the "field" people. For these people, one really important aspect of the pricing issue is that equipment that stops working far from home is extremely expensive. So reliability is a very large point of the price parameter. Add to this that discount pricing typically shaves quite a bit of the list prices for these organisations. And add to that the ratios between prices between different manufacturers when it comes to the list prices in Europe for Nagra is different from in the US.
Now, a professional organisation generally never buys things from specs only. The organisation takes home a number of copies of the machine and tests them several weeks in real world situations before committing to upgrading the whole fleet of machines. I believe several of the Nagra offerings are made to fit this situation.
Next exemple: I had the pleasure of taking a very, very small part in making a commercial ad for one or another coffee brand (or whatever). It featured one of our countries best known opera singers. Filmed on location as well as sound recorded in a studio. About 35 professionals in the crew (add some 20 amateurs including me pressing buttons on a Bassoon). The mobile power supply for lighting came on a full size lorry, they had several lamps each on 5kW each (think garbage bin size) (not directly seen in the movie). Now, the lone sound guy would never get another job if for some reason his equipment would fail due to him taking short-cuts. In this case he did run a SD 744T on location.
one version can be seen on this page a bit down
http://www.resume.se/nyheter/2010/10/06/fler-ovantade-besok/
Next example: John Willett has a long history of making commercial CD recordings of classical music. After very careful listening and actual testing of machines he has choosen the Nagra VI as his standard machine. Your choice will probably be different as your requirements differ.
Of course, most of us are not in the same category. And maybe the ML4 is made to a completely different market, it might be something one large customer has requested. Good marketing in its larger sense is to know your customer and produce what the customer is willing to pay for. And our part of it as customers is to carefully choose exactly what fits our situation.
Given all this, I did buy a 722 for my own private money several years ago and use it quite often.
// Gunnar
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My argument referenced Nagra's immediate competitors in the Professional market. Aaton and Zaxcom at the higher price point. Fostex for a similar price point. Then as mentioned before me the SD boxes at a lower price point. So in that sense I fail to see where my argument falls short as I was responding to the Professional market?
The intent is not to discredit Nagra or their history. Instead i'm just offering an opinion on the current lineup of equipment when compared to competitors current equipment.
The number of organization in Europe that use Nagra i'm sure is traditionally very high but how many organizations are choosing the current Nagra's over current comparable competitors? To your point of reliability > price parameter take the SD boxes out of the discussion entirely and I still struggle to find where the current Nagra boxes are superior to their direct competition?
As to your second example I am not sure as to the point you're making other than reliability but at the end of this example you say he ran a SD box. Am I missing the point to that example?
I have no issue with John whatsoever and in no way am trying to discredit or question him or his expansive resume. What I do know about John is that he appears to be heavily biased towards Nagra and Rycote products exclusively and is unabashedly open about that in his posts. We all have our own allegiances to specific things in life myself included.
I said in my previous post I can't fathom how the Nagra's are the clear winners but I am certainly willing and open to be convinced.
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460's damn it! ;D
oops wrong thread.
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460's damn it! ;D
oops wrong thread.
Well at least in this thread you aren't biased one way or another like in the 460/390 thread. Nor has anyone asked for a recommendation for something within a budget.
Just sayin' ;D
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Stubborn like you.
Just sayin' ;)
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I don't understand why the Aaton Cantar-X is never brought up when we discuss professional equipment. its European so it should at least be as good as the Nagra.
http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php
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I don't understand why the Aaton Cantar-X is never brought up when we discuss professional equipment. its European so it should at least be as good as the Nagra.
http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/index.php
It's been brought up many times when the higher end pro gear is discussed. It's $14k price tag limits the number of owners around these parts though.
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I've seen it brought up a couple times. good to know its not being neglected. ;)
Yeah, the high price will limit the number of us tapers who own it considering for that price, you could get A FEW sound devices units. I was bringing it up because its 'professional'. surly the european market uses it to record radio programs, eh?
and I have seen anything from cell phones, $60 recorders, mini disc recorders, Marantz 660, etc used by news reporters to do their story.
I think the tech staff of radio shows/news programs has to keep the technology relatively simple so the reporters will actually know how to use it.
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The Cantar-X is mostly aimed at movie and TV markets (10.000 BC, Harry Potter V, Desperate Housewives, Broken Flowers to name a few), and is quite out of topic for taping or radio work. It is also heavy, 4.6 Kg with his two batteries (10 lbs 6 oz.). That's even heavier than a PD606 or a Deva.
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not sure how the weight makes a difference as almost all the photos show people wearing it in a harness. they are able to carry it, wear headphones, and use a boom. most people here don't have their sound devices, dr680, r44 in harnesses while recording music.
since the cantar-x is a SOUND RECORDER, it still applies to a site/forum dedicated to audio recording.
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As you said, for the price of a single Cantar you could buy a few SD unit, or SD with mics, pres, AD, power, booms, clamps, headphones etc. Most of this stuff will be more usefull for taping than a single, "naked", Cantar. Anyway if you got the money and want to own one of those recording jewels, do not hesitate ! Even just operating it is a pleasure, a bit like older Nagra units. It's incredibly well thought and well designed from A to Z.
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Emailed a Nagra dealer today and was quoted $7872 for a Nagra VI.
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Ahh John I should have expected a response from you. You certainly do or die with the Nagra and Rycote products. Do you get a commission from them?
No, I just like them.
I know sometimes I go a bit OTT on the Rycote, but that's because I'm so knocked out by the engineering that makes a far better shockmount at a far lower price.
1. I am in the US. I see quite a good number of reporters using cassette recorders still. Lots and lots of reporters, bloggers and the like still making shit for money so a Nagra for an interview isn't happening. Heck in last night's post World Series interviews I saw two reporters using the built-in mics of an iPhone.
I am in the UK - mostly here cassette went years ago. If the money is tight, then they tend to use the small inexpensive hand-held flash recorders with built-in mics..
2. The LB is at least 20% - 40% higher than any comparable SD unit. That statement from you is just wrong.
No, I am not wrong - In the UK the LB is £1,600 and the 702 is about £1,800.
3. Yes the Nagra VI is cheaper than the 788 but with four less usable channels. Best mic pres in a portable? I'm thinking the Zaxcom and Aaton folks will have a slight disagreement with you on that one. Quality wise I think the Fostex and the aforementioned Zaxcom boxes would very much beg to differ.
I didn't say the others were bad, just that I consider the Nagra he best. From what I have seen of the Zaxcom, I would never use one, whatever the price. The Aaton Cantar and Sound Devices I like very much; but the Cantar is double the price of the Nagra VI and the 788T, although it does have lots of great things about it, was not quite the machine for me.
4. 100% my opinion no doubt. Since I don't have the strong attachment that you do to the Nagra gear I tend to think my opinion is based on looking at the facts of the matter without prejudice towards any one brand. While I own a SD box I certainly don't think they are the only or best tree in the forest. For the price of the Nagra VI I don't think there is much of a competition when compared to the Fostex PD606. Not one spec of the Nagra appears to be more favorable than the comparably priced Fostex. I was able to fiddle with a PD606 a couple of months ago and came away very impressed with it as an example.
I looked at several machines before buying the Nagra. What won me over was the ergonomics and sound quality and I put that ahead of other things. When I bought the Nagra, the SD was way behind, though upgrades have improved it vastly since I made my decision. The Fostex was not the machine for me, not out when I bought the Nagra and I have not looked closely at that one. I am the sort of person that, if I really like something I tend to talk about it. That's all, you are reading too much into it.
As for my last statement John:
While Nagra has been around a long time in this business I just find it hard to believe that they're not just resting on their legacy when it comes to current products. What we do here for the most part makes the Aaton's, Deva's and the like overkill I still can't help but wonder who would choose one of current Nagra products when compared to their competitors at similar price ranges and feature sets. 5 to 10 years ago maybe but in 2010? No thanks.
Other than being on the Nagra payroll :) where do you see the current Nagra lineup beating the competition? If you want to compare by price points the Nagra's seem to lack comparible features to others at the same price point. If you want to compare feature sets then again Nagra is behind to similar competition. Then the ergonomics? Well again there i'm having trouble finding Nagra above the competition. I don't think Nagra makes junk or are a bad company I just think that currently the competition from the lower, same and higher price points are ahead of the Nagra product line. If you set the Kool-Aid down for a second and looks at the specs, reviews and experiences of all of these products I can't fathom how you think the Nagra's are the clear winners but I am certainly willing to be convinced if possible.
For my purposes the Nagra clearly beats the competition, or I would have bought one of them. For film use on the run the 788T seems to be the winner, for other purposes some people choose the Cantar. I am recording classical music and want a machine without any compromise in the sound quality and the Nagra does that for me better than the others. And others agree, there are quite a few people doing the same sort of recording that I do and have chosen the Nagra VI above all the others. And I'm *not* on Nagra's payroll at all!
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Thanks for the response John. Much appreciated.
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2. The LB is at least 20% - 40% higher than any comparable SD unit. That statement from you is just wrong.
No, I am not wrong - In the UK the LB is £1,600 and the 702 is about £1,800.
You both are correct, from what I have always thought on this subject; it boils down to where you are. Folks in the US get SD boxes cheaper, while Nagra boxes have been comparable or cheaper in the Europe. I'm guessing it's import duties and stuff like that.