Topic: Edirol R-09HR - Part TWO

[midden]

Hello all,
     I can't tell you how happy I am to have stumbled upon this treasure trove of knowledge in such a circuitous route that only the internet can provide, taperssection is surely the dat-heads I once read for the 21st century.
     Thanks mainly to the copious reporting on the R-09HR here (although other sources too) I have decided to take the plunge and ordered one of these units. My main question here is about pairing this unit up with external microphones and possibly a pre-amp. I have studiously read the entire 26 pages of the part ONE of this post and all of the part TWO as well as googling a few terms that were driving me crazy to get an answer on so everything I'm asking I seriously have no clue on and would be quite grateful for elucidation. The simple questions first:
1. What is a nbox? ((pjp quoted this as his setup; Source: Schoeps MK4 > Nbox > Edirol R-09HR) or Nbox+? I've looked and looked and the only place I can find this term in an audio context is on torrent sites for live recordings...
2. I see alot of people mentioning Church Audio STC-11s, however even going to www.church-audio.ca's ebay store I don't see any of this model, are they now obsolete or at least discontinued?
3. Is there a difference between people saying BB (battery box) and a pre-amp or is it just a euphemism?

So now my more general question is this: What microphones are the best for recording bass? I initially chose this model over the Olympus LS-10 because the internal speakers on the R-09HR had better bass response and because I read on this forum that the LS-10 was a "dead-end" for using aftermarket pre-amps.
If you're curious as to why I ask, it is because the type of music I will be recording is metal, and not Warrant / Motley Crue "metal", I mean mostly death metal and black metal, which for those unfamiliar is quite dense/busy musically and makes significant use of double bass through the kick drum. I would like to say I'm an audiophile but unfortunately I'm not rich enough to put my money where my mouth is, however I do believe in deep bass and did manage to get a pair of speakers for my stereo that are capable of producing it accurately.

Setups that I've seen include the Nbox of course (which is why I'm dying to know what it is!), Sound Professional SP-BMC-1, SP-BMC-2, SP-BMC-3, SP-BMC-10 mics,  all save the BMC-10's have similar frequency response and SNR, the price is even the same, adding to the frustration of differentiation. The HEB's (sometimes with or without Core Sound BB or pre-amp...http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php are these the ones everyone is referring to?
Some people talk about these pre-amps, the Felmicamps: http://www.felmicamps.co.uk/products/fel3.5series.html
I have read guysonic's review of the R-09HR http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm and he recommends pairing this with the PA-3SX preamp, and the DSM mics he sells. It made me raise the proverbial eyebrow because he sells a mic that is supposedly tailor made for metal, the DSM-6S /EL.
Others have recommended the DPA 4061 (Danish Pro Audio), and Audio Technica, which is apparently used in the SP-BMC-10.

So, in the case of Sonic Studio's little kit, the PA-3SX and the DSM-6S /EL are about $1100. Considering the about $350 for the R-09HR this is altogether only $150 less than buying a Sony PCM-D1 (check froogle.com). Are all of these digital recorders' internal mics crap if you're "serious" about audio quality?
I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish, I am willing to spend some money so I don't listen to my recording later and lament that if I only spent an extra $100, or $300, or $500, it would've been inordinately better. As they say, quality is remembered long after price is forgotten...
Would it make sense to just get a Sony PCM-D50 and the DSM-6S /EL since this would be cheaper ultimately than the R-09HR w/ the extra pre-amp?
Please help me  Thank you in advance and I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.

[Dede2002]

Hello all,
     I can't tell you how happy I am to have stumbled upon this treasure trove of knowledge in such a circuitous route that only the internet can provide, taperssection is surely the dat-heads I once read for the 21st century.
     Thanks mainly to the copious reporting on the R-09HR here (although other sources too) I have decided to take the plunge and ordered one of these units. My main question here is about pairing this unit up with external microphones and possibly a pre-amp. I have studiously read the entire 26 pages of the part ONE of this post and all of the part TWO as well as googling a few terms that were driving me crazy to get an answer on so everything I'm asking I seriously have no clue on and would be quite grateful for elucidation. The simple questions first:
1. What is a nbox? ((pjp quoted this as his setup; Source: Schoeps MK4 > Nbox > Edirol R-09HR) or Nbox+? I've looked and looked and the only place I can find this term in an audio context is on torrent sites for live recordings...
2. I see alot of people mentioning Church Audio STC-11s, however even going to www.church-audio.ca's ebay store I don't see any of this model, are they now obsolete or at least discontinued?
3. Is there a difference between people saying BB (battery box) and a pre-amp or is it just a euphemism?

So now my more general question is this: What microphones are the best for recording bass? I initially chose this model over the Olympus LS-10 because the internal speakers on the R-09HR had better bass response and because I read on this forum that the LS-10 was a "dead-end" for using aftermarket pre-amps.
If you're curious as to why I ask, it is because the type of music I will be recording is metal, and not Warrant / Motley Crue "metal", I mean mostly death metal and black metal, which for those unfamiliar is quite dense/busy musically and makes significant use of double bass through the kick drum. I would like to say I'm an audiophile but unfortunately I'm not rich enough to put my money where my mouth is, however I do believe in deep bass and did manage to get a pair of speakers for my stereo that are capable of producing it accurately.

Setups that I've seen include the Nbox of course (which is why I'm dying to know what it is!), Sound Professional SP-BMC-1, SP-BMC-2, SP-BMC-3, SP-BMC-10 mics,  all save the BMC-10's have similar frequency response and SNR, the price is even the same, adding to the frustration of differentiation. The HEB's (sometimes with or without Core Sound BB or pre-amp...http://www.core-sound.com/bk/1.php are these the ones everyone is referring to?
Some people talk about these pre-amps, the Felmicamps: http://www.felmicamps.co.uk/products/fel3.5series.html
I have read guysonic's review of the R-09HR http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm and he recommends pairing this with the PA-3SX preamp, and the DSM mics he sells. It made me raise the proverbial eyebrow because he sells a mic that is supposedly tailor made for metal, the DSM-6S /EL.
Others have recommended the DPA 4061 (Danish Pro Audio), and Audio Technica, which is apparently used in the SP-BMC-10.

So, in the case of Sonic Studio's little kit, the PA-3SX and the DSM-6S /EL are about $1100. Considering the about $350 for the R-09HR this is altogether only $150 less than buying a Sony PCM-D1 (check froogle.com). Are all of these digital recorders' internal mics crap if you're "serious" about audio quality?
I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish, I am willing to spend some money so I don't listen to my recording later and lament that if I only spent an extra $100, or $300, or $500, it would've been inordinately better. As they say, quality is remembered long after price is forgotten...
Would it make sense to just get a Sony PCM-D50 and the DSM-6S /EL since this would be cheaper ultimately than the R-09HR w/ the extra pre-amp?
Please help me  Thank you in advance and I apologize if this is the wrong place to post this.

I'm the first one to jump in. Unfortunatelly, I'm not the one with more knowledge, but I'll try to give you my impressions. If that helps, I'd be happy.
The Church "11s" mics are the same: Church cardioids. Right now there is a new model ( CA-14) which is said to be nice too. For a better understanding about Church audio line of products, please check TS Retail link.
A BB is a battery, the one device that powers your mics before the signal goes to your recorder ( if you are running Line In with loud music or don't want to use the recorder own plug in power). The preamp also powers the mics, but - no suprise - also amplifies the signal coming from your mics. Simply put: a BB is perfect in loud music situations - seems to be your case. A preamp is great when the original signal is not loud enough.
Regarding the NBox, I'm not sure, but I' too want to know details about it's purpose . My guess: it's a preamp, but  I'm not 100% sure.
Regarding gear, I can only talk about my gear. I'm quite happy with the R9HR, Microphone Madness mics ( HLSO-1 cards and HLSO omni, both Sennheiser based) and my 9100 Church preamp. BTW, the HLSC-1 is amazing with loud music.
Microphone Madness, Soundprofessionals and Church Audio are great and worth checking. Regarding being "serious" about sound quality, well, I wouldn't consider any recorder internal mics for live music taping.
Just my 0.00000002 cents. Hope that helps. Keep your cool: in a few minutes the more educated members will help you out.
Take care

[Craig T]

An NBox is a power supply and preamp designed specifically to work with Schoeps Colette mk_ capsules.  It allows you to run just the Schoeps caps - no need for bodies/amplifiers (cmc5, cmc6, etc).  It provides 60V power to the capsules and about +18 to 20 db fixed gain with unbalanced rca outs.  The NBox+ is the same thing with upgraded capacitors.  Visit 'Team NBox' for more info.

I ran another test of the 16GB A-Data class 6 SDHC card.  Fresh format, recording at 24/96... I got the "slow card" error at 1 hr 55 min.  I started recording again (I didn't reformat) and I got the "slow card" error in 11 min.    I think I'm done wasting batteries on these tests.  With the v1.04 firmware, I think it's safe to say you're limited to 24/48 with this card.

[andol123]

Those spikes showing up in 88.2kHz and 96kHz, do they appear when using the internal mics too or mic-in only?

[digifish_music]

Those spikes showing up in 88.2kHz and 96kHz, do they appear when using the internal mics too or mic-in only?

Only on the mic in, not the internal or the line-in.

digifish

[gmm6797]

in case anyone missed it, like I did, the official guysonic review: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106364.msg1420097.html#msg1420097

[midden]

I'm the first one to jump in. Unfortunatelly, I'm not the one with more knowledge, but I'll try to give you my impressions. If that helps, I'd be happy.
The Church "11s" mics are the same: Church cardioids. Right now there is a new model ( CA-14) which is said to be nice too. For a better understanding about Church audio line of products, please check TS Retail link.
A BB is a battery, the one device that powers your mics before the signal goes to your recorder ( if you are running Line In with loud music or don't want to use the recorder own plug in power). The preamp also powers the mics, but - no suprise - also amplifies the signal coming from your mics. Simply put: a BB is perfect in loud music situations - seems to be your case. A preamp is great when the original signal is not loud enough.
Regarding the NBox, I'm not sure, but I' too want to know details about it's purpose . My guess: it's a preamp, but  I'm not 100% sure.
Regarding gear, I can only talk about my gear. I'm quite happy with the R9HR, Microphone Madness mics ( HLSO-1 cards and HLSO omni, both Sennheiser based) and my 9100 Church preamp. BTW, the HLSC-1 is amazing with loud music.

Thanks for the reply, just to clarify what you said, if I were to get HLSC-1's, I wouldn't need a 9100 Church preamp? Also, I looked at the specs on them and they only go down to 30hz on the low end, I couldn't find any specs on the HLSO-1 (maybe they don't sell them anymore?), just wondering if you recommended them over the CA-11, or CA-14s which do go down to 20hz for a reason?

Visit 'Team NBox' for more info.

I searched taperssection for this and only came up with one hit, google had nothing, do you have a webpage?

[jamroom]

Visit 'Team NBox' for more info.

I searched taperssection for this and only came up with one hit, google had nothing, do you have a webpage?

Try the forum index then Miscellaneous -> Team Boards -> Team NBox

Chris Church advertises all of his products in the Retail Space, as do others.

[Craig T]

Team NBox:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,57958.0.html

Ran yet another test last night w/ the 16GB A-Data "Turbo" (Class 6) SDHC card.  v1.04 firmware, 24/48, Kirkland Signature (Costco) alkalines.  Everything looks good, no errors, and it ran for 4 hrs 40 min before saving and shutting down.

Testing a 16GB PNY Class 4 SDHC card now @ 24/96...
[Update]  Success!  It ran for 4 hrs 37 min before saving and shutting down.  No "slow card" errors.   

[Chris K]

curious....for those of you who used to own the original r-09 version and now own the HR version.....does it make a difference to you that the line input is on the SIDE of the HR unit vs the top of the R-09?  the level adjustment buttons are still on the side for each, correct? does this pose a problem on the HR version?

I may be in the market for an r-09...and just trying to get some additional info before taking the plunge. I have run the original r-09 with no problems, and not sure the extra sample rates is worth it for me

[Craig T]

curious....for those of you who used to own the original r-09 version and now own the HR version.....does it make a difference to you that the line input is on the SIDE of the HR unit vs the top of the R-09?  the level adjustment buttons are still on the side for each, correct? does this pose a problem on the HR version?

It's not a problem for me.  Yes, level adjustment is on the same side.  Level buttons near the center and line input near the bottom.

[JD]

curious....for those of you who used to own the original r-09 version and now own the HR version.....does it make a difference to you that the line input is on the SIDE of the HR unit vs the top of the R-09?  the level adjustment buttons are still on the side for each, correct? does this pose a problem on the HR version?

I may be in the market for an r-09...and just trying to get some additional info before taking the plunge. I have run the original r-09 with no problems, and not sure the extra sample rates is worth it for me

I find that using a RA plug with the jacks on the side makes adjusting the levels a little cumbersome.
But, once I have the levels figured out a little better, I plan setting the R09hr's levels once per outing and making all the adjustments via the pre amp.

To me the R09hr is the way to go just because of the larger display and the better quality build(no more break away input jacks).

[midden]

Could anyone please tell me if the line in power would be sufficient to power a pair of DPA 4061s wired together to a 1/8" plug, or if it they would have to be plugged into the mic in, or will I need a bbox (battery box, right?) for high volume (90+ db) recording, and if so, could you please make a recommendation? Thanks.

[Dede2002]

I'm the first one to jump in. Unfortunatelly, I'm not the one with more knowledge, but I'll try to give you my impressions. If that helps, I'd be happy.
The Church "11s" mics are the same: Church cardioids. Right now there is a new model ( CA-14) which is said to be nice too. For a better understanding about Church audio line of products, please check TS Retail link.
A BB is a battery, the one device that powers your mics before the signal goes to your recorder ( if you are running Line In with loud music or don't want to use the recorder own plug in power). The preamp also powers the mics, but - no suprise - also amplifies the signal coming from your mics. Simply put: a BB is perfect in loud music situations - seems to be your case. A preamp is great when the original signal is not loud enough.
Regarding the NBox, I'm not sure, but I' too want to know details about it's purpose . My guess: it's a preamp, but  I'm not 100% sure.
Regarding gear, I can only talk about my gear. I'm quite happy with the R9HR, Microphone Madness mics ( HLSO-1 cards and HLSO omni, both Sennheiser based) and my 9100 Church preamp. BTW, the HLSC-1 is amazing with loud music.

Thanks for the reply, just to clarify what you said, if I were to get HLSC-1's, I wouldn't need a 9100 Church preamp? Also, I looked at the specs on them and they only go down to 30hz on the low end, I couldn't find any specs on the HLSO-1 (maybe they don't sell them anymore?), just wondering if you recommended them over the CA-11, or CA-14s which do go down to 20hz for a reason?

Visit 'Team NBox' for more info.

I searched taperssection for this and only came up with one hit, google had nothing, do you have a webpage?

Friend,

Metal type music? I'm sure you won't need a preamp. A battery box is all you're going to need. In this case, use the Line In input, quiter than the Mic input.
About comparing different mics, well, like I said, I just can't do that . It wouldn't be ethic for a very simple reason: I don't have any Church mics. I'm sure they are great  products. Lots of folks around here use and love them. I can talk about the HLSC-1: terrific mics.  Yes, they are available at Microphone Madness site. Give Mike a call.
About the NBox, I think you can find the info you need in a recent post on this very thread.
Hope that helps,

[midden]

Thanks for the reply, just to clarify what you said, if I were to get HLSC-1's, I wouldn't need a 9100 Church preamp? Also, I looked at the specs on them and they only go down to 30hz on the low end, I couldn't find any specs on the HLSO-1 (maybe they don't sell them anymore?), just wondering if you recommended them over the CA-11, or CA-14s which do go down to 20hz for a reason?

Friend,

Metal type music? I'm sure you won't need a preamp. A battery box is all you're going to need. In this case, use the Line In input, quiter than the Mic input.
About comparing different mics, well, like I said, I just can't do that . It wouldn't be ethic for a very simple reason: I don't have any Church mics. I'm sure they are great  products. Lots of folks around here use and love them. I can talk about the HLSC-1: terrific mics.  Yes, they are available at Microphone Madness site. Give Mike a call.
About the NBox, I think you can find the info you need in a recent post on this very thread.
Hope that helps,

Thanks again for helping me out with your knowledge, I like the Church Audio ST-9100 and would probably just order this and be done with it if not for my time constraints, as there's a show that I *MUST* tape next Wednesday and thus can't wait the 2-3week build time + shipping time, so I need a bbox or something that I can just order and have shipped. The HLSC-1s I'm a little hesitant of because I previously mentioned they go down to 30hz on the low end as opposed to alot of other mics that do the whole audio range (20hz-20khz), I was referring to not being able to find the ones that you said you have already, the HLSO-1s.