Topic: A device (or mixer) that monitors in decoded M-S but records discrete tracks

[SonoOtoSound]

Hey - I'm new to the forum and apologize if this has been asked before (i searched for it, unsuccessfully)

I do a lot of recording for film and radio and am looking to upgrade to a Sennhieser M-S setup. But I need a new recording device too (I have a Sony D-50) and really want one that allows me to MONITOR in stereo (in other words, the M-S signals decoded) but RECORD the mid and side as discrete tracks (in other words, the M-S signals un-decoded). I know the Sound Devices 702, 722, etc... all do that, but I'm hoping to find a cheaper solution that still sounds good and is reliable.

So far the only thing that seems reasonable is trying to find a Sound Devices MP-2 (this came before the SD MixPre, which came before the SD Mix-Pre-D). The MP-2 seems to be able to do this and then I could run that into my Sony D-50. The problem is they're old and I can't find any used ones anywhere. Does anyone know where I can find one? (or does anyone have a 702 or 722 they're looking to get rid of??).

If I can't find a used MP-2 or 702, can anyone recommend a good recording device that has this feature???

Thank you so much for your help!
Mark

[page]

Hey - I'm new to the forum and apologize if this has been asked before (i searched for it, unsuccessfully)

I do a lot of recording for film and radio and am looking to upgrade to a Sennhieser M-S setup. But I need a new recording device too (I have a Sony D-50) and really want one that allows me to MONITOR in stereo (in other words, the M-S signals decoded) but RECORD the mid and side as discrete tracks (in other words, the M-S signals un-decoded). I know the Sound Devices 702, 722, etc... all do that, but I'm hoping to find a cheaper solution that still sounds good and is reliable.

So far the only thing that seems reasonable is trying to find a Sound Devices MP-2 (this came before the SD MixPre, which came before the SD Mix-Pre-D). The MP-2 seems to be able to do this and then I could run that into my Sony D-50. The problem is they're old and I can't find any used ones anywhere. Does anyone know where I can find one? (or does anyone have a 702 or 722 they're looking to get rid of??).

If I can't find a used MP-2 or 702, can anyone recommend a good recording device that has this feature???

Thank you so much for your help!
Mark

I was actually going to suggest the mp2. doh.

If you need it on short notice and don't mind the price, there is someone selling a 722 in the yard sale right now (or at least they were a day or two ago).

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I'm not very familiar with the deck, but maybe someone who knows the Tascam DR-680 can chime in: does that recorder have flexible monitoring options?

[SonoOtoSound]

Hey thanks for your responses - the Tascam DR-680 *does* offer the flexible monitoring option, but I've been warned about it's cheapness. I'm going to be use this in the field for film and radio work as well, and need something that will hold up.

My latest thought is doing something like this: M/S mics -> Sound Devices MixPre-D -> Sony D-50 -> *M/S decoder for headphones* -> headphones. That could be a simple solution if a M/S decoder for headphones exists. I've found this:

http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/ds_MS38_Lite.html

which seems *perfect*, but it's been discontinued. I'm not handy enough to build one myself. Anyone know of something like this AEA MS38??? That would be perfect.

Thanks again for your thoughts!
Mark

[jbell]

I think you can get a V3 with M/S option added on! 

[udovdh]

Which mics do you intend to use with the recorder you are looking for?
(might help the audience)

[page]

I think you can get a V3 with M/S option added on!

but it won't send discrete tracks and allow for monitoring decoded tracks simultaniously.

Hey thanks for your responses - the Tascam DR-680 *does* offer the flexible monitoring option, but I've been warned about it's cheapness. I'm going to be use this in the field for film and radio work as well, and need something that will hold up.

What we think of as "cheap" is sometimes different than what someone who's employment depends on the recording thinks of as "cheap" so I'll go out on a limb and say if this is a professional application and needs to be robust due to envioronmental factors, the only other thing I could think that might fit would be the Edirol R-44. It can do MS Decoding with seperate settings for recording or playback. So you could say "no, I want to record discrete tracks, but playback decoded tracks" but I don't know if their term "playback" encompasses monitoring. If it does, that's great, but I'd want to play with it a lot before I baught one for that reason. In the Team Board section of this forum there should be a thread for Edirol that you might find someone nearby to you who has a unit you could test with.

edit: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=149224.0 I feel mildly dumb now, that took all of 10 seconds to find the answer to. (I own a 722 and not the R44 so I didn't know) Scratch that plan.

After that, the most robust products (e.g. built like a tank and intended for professional situations) I can think of that are remotely economical and do the desired function are used machines from Sound Devices. Stuff that can compete with that like Sonosax or Nagra just isn't available at a competitive price.

[kirk97132]

The 680 isn't any "cheaper built" than the Sony D50 and I'd say it is as well built as the r-44 having owned an R-44.  I have a 680 that has over a year on it with no issues.    It's not tank like ala the 7xx series but then again not much else is.

[DigiGal]

Sound Devices 302 Mixer is designed for film/video applications and will do what you're looking for, however, they're not cheap.

[SonoOtoSound]

Hey everyone - thanks for all your responses. udovdh - to answer your question: I'm going to get a Sennheiser MKH 30 and 50. DigiGal - thanks for pointing out the 302 mixer.. I didn't realize that was an option. However, at that price ($1300) I think I would just rather get a 702 instead and have a more compact setup with only one set of batteries, etc. But it's good to know the 302 can do this too. So assuming there isn't a better solution - what do you guys think would be a better setup (and by better I mean sound quality, ease of use, reliable, etc... - obviously this is all super subjective but again, I'll be using this in the field a lot to record ambiences, nature sounds, sound effects, radio interviews, as well as musical performances):

a SD mp-2 -> Sony d50    OR      the Tascam 680? (This is assuming I can even find an MP-2)

Again, thanks for all your thoughts - I'm really grateful for everyone's generosity and helping me out!
-Mark

[jbell]

I use to run a MP-2>D50 and it is a small and durable setup(smaller than the DR680).  The MP-2 is bulletproof and I think the D50 is the most well built hand held currently out there.  I haven't heard of any reports of people having issues with their D50's, but even though people have had solid experiences with the 680 there have been reports of problems.  That being said I have no experience with the DR680.  You missed my MP-2 by a few weeks I sold it very recently.  If you keep your ISO in the YS an MP-2 will surface and since you already have a D50 I would hold out for an MP-2 for a bit. 

[hi and lo]

The 680 isn't any "cheaper built" than the Sony D50 and I'd say it is as well built as the r-44 having owned an R-44.  I have a 680 that has over a year on it with no issues.    It's not tank like ala the 7xx series but then again not much else is.

Couldn't disagree more. I am happy our 680 is finally working, but would never recommend it to a non-hobbiest.

[kirk97132]

hi and Lo I know you've had issues but to counter that I have two 680's and have had no issues at all.  I sold my R-44 for the first 680 and the build quality meaning what they are built with and their functionality is equivalent.  I love my 680 and would buy another in a heartbeat.  As for durability I have rode the first 680 pretty hard.  used it a ton and have not had a lick of any kind of issue.  at a $1000 price point I think it's the best bang for the buck.  I run an Mp-2 a USBPre2 and V3 with it. Yet when run alone it delivers a great sound. 

As for Mp-2 used....an ISO here and troll E-bay they show up every so often. 

[Nick's Picks]

question...
why is it important to "monitor" a L/R signal if you are recording discrete M-S tracks ?  I dont understand the point.  You still have to mix the two tracks in post, and listen / adjust while doing it.
wouldn't it be prudent to do that in a nice quiet controlled setting vs. a concert where the db is so loud you can't hear shit any way ?

If you're trying to nail it on the fly, then just let the deck/preamp do the mixing and record the L/R channels.  Monitor that in real time.

[runonce]

question...
why is it important to "monitor" a L/R signal if you are recording discrete M-S tracks ?  I dont understand the point.  You still have to mix the two tracks in post, and listen / adjust while doing it.
wouldn't it be prudent to do that in a nice quiet controlled setting vs. a concert where the db is so loud you can't hear shit any way ?

If you're trying to nail it on the fly, then just let the deck/preamp do the mixing and record the L/R channels.  Monitor that in real time.

I would think one reason might be - that it would be slightly annoying to have a raw M/S channels fed into headphones...a figure 8 in one ear and a card in the other...not a great setup if you are doing location stuff...plus I could see it helping you keep "spot on" in you are in motion or have to track a moving sound source.