Topic: Recording Gigs from PA Soundboard

[jelkin]

Ok, I am a complete noob at this, granted I know my hardware (computer wise) more than quite well and I have been introduced to the hardware req'd for getting a multitrack recording, i'm also a nut about obtaining sbd's from a plethora of bands anywhere from STS9 to Tool to the Dead) so I know a small amount about transferring but little about the specific hardware used in the transfer. I've recorded a main-out SBD two time, and haven't been extremely pleased with the outcomes, I'm assuming because when running 1/4" RCAs to 1/8" TRS into my computer's line in is just capturing the feed specific for the venue's acoustics. Some friends have told me that doing a multitrack recording would yield *much* better results. Recently, I've been to a small bar-type venue with an amazing PA (they have a PreSonus StudioLive 32.4.2AI mixer), and the sound guy there says he runs a FW 800 cable from the mixer to a MacBook and records multitrack in PreSonus Capture on his laptop. Seems pretty simple.
Not all venues will have a FW 800 output, I understand this. So I've been looking into getting (eventually 2) an 8-input recorder that I can run outputs from the board into the ins on my recorder, then an out into my computer. Firewire seems to be the way to go these days (correct me if I'm wrong), so a recorder with FW outs seems to be necessary as FW will allow for multitrack separation.  In the beginning I was looking at a Zoom r16, but now I'm looking at the PreSonus FireStudio Project. Am I headed in the right direction?  How do you guys capture a (D)SBD recording? What do you guys recommend in terms of recording off a board? (Everyone I would be recording for are friends so access to the house PA wouldn't ever be a problem.)

Thanks for dumbing yourselves down for me, and I appreciate any responses/help!

[ScoobieKW]

First rule of soundboard recordings, the PA system is built to reinforce the sound coming from the stage. A soundboard recording will be heavy on the quiet sources like voice, and light or missing on gutars.

So the easiest way to do it, is two record two tracks from onstage Mics and two tracks from the pa feed. Mixed together you get an excellent blend.

[yousef]

I would say that listening back to your raw multitrack recordings can be one of the most depressing experiences in the world.

What sounded wonderfully full and natural in the room is now flat, thin, tinny and often quite unmusical. Unless you're lucky, each recording will demand several hours of hard work to knock into shape.

This is not to mention the occasions when not all the instruments are actually put through the soundboard ie most small/bar venues - so you'll need your own mics, stands, leads and possibly pre-amps for those missing instruments.

Plus with only 8 channels, how are you going to share the feeds from the stage out? You can reasonably expect 2 or 3 vocal mics, two guitars, bass, maybe a keyboard plus a minimum of bass drum, snare drum and two overhead mics. Plus you'd really want a mic or two to capture some room ambience. That's easily more than eight...

I love doing multitracks but we run a 24-channel deck, have three crates full of leads, adaptors, preamps, mics and various odds and sods, around a dozen mic stands, a mixing desk, a set of drum mics and a pair of 8-channel isolated mic spiltters. And we still end up struggling with one thing or another...

I would say - start by running a decent pair of mics to record the room. If you have access to the board, complement these with a stereo feed - excellent results can be had with careful mixing of these four channels. And then, if you like what you're doing and are up for the challenge, consider the long, slippery, expensive road to multitrack...

[jelkin]

First rule of soundboard recordings, the PA system is built to reinforce the sound coming from the stage. A soundboard recording will be heavy on the quiet sources like voice, and light or missing on gutars.

So the easiest way to do it, is two record two tracks from onstage Mics and two tracks from the pa feed. Mixed together you get an excellent blend.

Your talking about 2 condenser mics?
1. Where should they be placed? Obviously middle of room FOB?
2. What kind of mics are a good buy?
Thanks!

[F.O.Bean]

First rule of soundboard recordings, the PA system is built to reinforce the sound coming from the stage. A soundboard recording will be heavy on the quiet sources like voice, and light or missing on gutars.

So the easiest way to do it, is two record two tracks from onstage Mics and two tracks from the pa feed. Mixed together you get an excellent blend.

Your talking about 2 condenser mics?
1. Where should they be placed? Obviously middle of room FOB?
2. What kind of mics are a good buy?
Thanks!

I record stage lip/onstage with my schoeps mk21 subcards and a matrix out of the SBD and get pleasing results. Only 4 channels too

[thunderbolt]

Your talking about 2 condenser mics?
1. Where should they be placed? Obviously middle of room FOB?
2. What kind of mics are a good buy?
Thanks!

Welcome to TS!

FWIW, I would spend a few weeks (seriously!) reading the various subsections of TS and listening to audience and matrix tapes on Live Music Archives.  There are many, many options in terms of equipment and how it's used.  You can spend a couple of hundred to well into 5 figures and beyond.  I came to TS as an old throw-up-a-pair-of-Naks-into-a-Sony D5 taper from the 1980s.  It is unbelievable how sophisticated and knowledgeable the folks here are, and how digital recording has progressed.  Use the search function.  After you've had a chance to digest, dip a toe in the water.  Multitrack recording can take a lifetime to master, but a matrix with pair or room mics and a board feed is doable armed with a some knowledge.  I do matrix recordings from a particular concert venue, and the FOH is amazing.  He consistently mixes great boards and PA mixes, but the two are mutually exclusive.

Search terms I'd suggest include:
mic configurations
matrix
inexpensive good sounding mics
inexpensive good recorders
finding the sweet spot

Mics are available from Busman Audio, Church Audio, Naiant, (our peeps here), as well as Audio Technica, then upwards through Neumann, Gefell, Schoeps, Telekunken, Sennheiser, etc..  A good two-track recorder can range from about $250 for a Sony M10 to $6500 for a Sound Devices 788T or a Nagra VI, with a wide range in between.  Mics can run from a hundred dollars a pair to many thousands.  Buy used; there are incredible deals here.  Tapers generally want to keep it in the family, so keep your eyes open.

You can make really nice tapes without spending a ton of $$.  As you will find, a tape made in the sweet spot with budget gear will kill a tape made with the best gear in a crappy location.

Welcome--and have fun!

[jelkin]

Wow, thanks everyone for the excellent information, you all have given me many more avenues to wander down (I don't know whether or not to thank you or curse you hah!). I'm definitely going to try the two mics FOH along with the stereo outs from the board. I think that's a nice transition from what I have been doing already into a multitrack recording environment on my DAW. However if I do this, I'm still going to need a 4 input recorder (I'm reluctant to say 4 *track* recorder as I've seen a few 8 input recorders that say "16 or 32 track" recorder), which I don't have. I have access to my buddy's Fostex VF160ex (has 8 inputs), so I can use that temporarily, but will need to make a purchase on a multitrack recorder anyways. Despite the fact that I will only need 4 inputs for this matrix configuration, I can always go 8 now, and have another 8 later. Does anyone have suggestions on a 8 input recorder in about the $300-500 range?

Oh my god, please be gentle with this; I know I'm about to sound *really* fresh to sound here: what is a preamp? What does it do, why would I need one? I know I'm probably getting ahead of myself here with this inquiry but keep hearing about it... Again, thanks everyone for the in depth responses, like I said, I've been given a lot to ponder as is. I feel like a sponge right now! And thanks for the welcome too!

[jelkin]

And I guess I should elaborate a little on what I'm recording, I have friends that play in bands that play music that range from your run of the mill jam variety and a couple that play in *loud* death/doom metal bands. Usually for all of them, yes Yousef you are correct, its 2 vocal mics, drums (ranging from 3-8 mics for the entire set), one or two guitars, a bass guitar, and occasionally a percussionist (I haven't run into a keyboard/piano -yet); I also have a bluegrass band I record for that has an acoustic guitar, stand up bass, fiddle, and a slide guitar/dobro.
So, when considering a couple of condenser mics to get, does what I'm recording play into my choices? I'm guessing, yes absolutely, but can someone kinda gimme a run down of how and why?
During my first attempt at recording from the PA, I was at a small bar with an elevated stage, I went direct stereo out with 1/4" RCA's into my 1/8" DAW (y-cord). Things sounded *much* better than just recording from the built in mic on a camcorder as the band had originally done, but the lows were way to low and the tom drum is out of range most of the show. Here http://youtu.be/gYLaBaLrerk is an example of the audio I caught. I totally agree that mixing in 70% sbd and 30% FOH mic matrix would have made this much better, but simply did not have the knowledge or equipment to make that happen. Anyways looking up mics now on google, checking out my options. Thanks again!

[ScoobieKW]

Simply put a preamp takes a microphone level signal and boosts it to appropriate levels for recording. Most portable recorders have built in preamps, but in many applications an external preamp will be of higher quality and yield better results.

I totally agree that mixing in 70% sbd and 30% FOH mic matrix would have made this much better, but simply did not have the knowledge or equipment to make that happen.

Since you have access to the stage, let me strongly recommend that you place your two microphones on the front lip of the stage. I'd suggest a cardioid pair in x-y configuration.

The reason for this, over recording with mics at FOH is that the FOH position is getting a mix of stage and PA.  Adding in SBD will still have the sbd mix heavier in the final. Using onstage + sbd gives you two complementing sources, the drums that aren't in the board mix, are coming the stage.

FOH recording is a good option when you only want to record two tracks. Capture what is happening in the room. Get the mics up high above the crowd and have fun.

[achalsey]

Tascam DR 680 is a nice 8 channel recorder and can be found for close to $500.  Two of the channels are digital in though, so you do need an external analog to digital converter for those.

[jelkin]

How high should the mics be once they on the lip of the stage?

[F.O.Bean]

I run mine about 2' high

[Chimney Top]

I run mine about 2' high

Depending on the setup/venue, the stage monitors may be a problem for running mic's stage lip/on stage...