Topic: JB3 levels

[Todd R]

...you said you don't run it hot on the MP-2 cuz it will ruin a recording.  I agree, and it wouldn't sound better if you used the limiter (running it too hot, as the limiter would be kicking in all the time, remember I said set the levels right, then add the limiter, this assumes that the limiter is set to max just before clipping).  HOWEVER, if you had a single spike that sent it over, that part would sound bad, the limiter would keep that from happening. 

I think you're overstating the case here.  Clipping means you are trying to go over 0dbFS which can't be done in the digital realm, so all samples are set to the highest level--0dbFS (zero decibels full scale).  So if you look at the waveform it will be flattened at the top.  Theoretically, this will not sound good.  But in a practical sense, if you have a short duration clipping event, say less than a fraction of a second, you will not hear it.  If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, will it make a sound?  If you clip for such a short duration (and only need say 1 db more headroom to not clip at all) does it sound bad if no human being has near the aural accuity to hear it?

Certainly clipping should be avoided and more serious clipping events will not sound good.  But a single drum hit that sends a spike in your levels resulting in a mild clip will not be detectable to human ears, so I have a hard time saying it sounds bad.  Contrast with the fact that I like to have my overall recording levels of my CDs about at the same level (-2 or -3db to 0db), and if they are too low, I will boost my levels in post-production to normalize them closer to 0db.  I can hear this, since the normalization process very (very, very, very) subtly changes the soundstaging cues, and the amazing soundstaging I get from recording on the V3 is lost to a degree (though admittedly a very small degree).  So for me personally, I do not hear any clipping sound effects when I have the occasional mild clipping, and I do hear a degradation of the sound of the original tapes when I run the signal through some sound processing software (even to just normalize).  Thus for me, I am willing to have the occasional very mild clip to get the best signal onto tape (for my way of listening) without the need to do post production processing.

Bottom line, this really isn't a right and wrong thing.  There are tradeoffs in how we record and listen and different people will have different ideas on what they prefer.  Clearly, you and I differ in that, but I'm not willing to concede that the tapes I've made that have had very mild clipping (and remember, my V3 lights the clip indicators up after three 0db samples in a row) sound bad.

All that said, I think the limiter function of the mp2 is an _extremely_ useful function to have when you stealth tape, and I often miss not having mine still.

[AT853rxwh]

I think you're overstating the case here.  Clipping means you are trying to go over 0dbFS which can't be done in the digital realm, so all samples are set to the highest level--0dbFS (zero decibels full scale).  So if you look at the waveform it will be flattened at the top.  Theoretically, this will not sound good.  But in a practical sense, if you have a short duration clipping event, say less than a fraction of a second, you will not hear it.  If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, will it make a sound?  If you clip for such a short duration (and only need say 1 db more headroom to not clip at all) does it sound bad if no human being has near the aural accuity to hear it?

Certainly clipping should be avoided and more serious clipping events will not sound good.  But a single drum hit that sends a spike in your levels resulting in a mild clip will not be detectable to human ears, so I have a hard time saying it sounds bad.  Contrast with the fact that I like to have my overall recording levels of my CDs about at the same level (-2 or -3db to 0db), and if they are too low, I will boost my levels in post-production to normalize them closer to 0db.  I can hear this, since the normalization process very (very, very, very) subtly changes the soundstaging cues, and the amazing soundstaging I get from recording on the V3 is lost to a degree (though admittedly a very small degree).  So for me personally, I do not hear any clipping sound effects when I have the occasional mild clipping, and I do hear a degradation of the sound of the original tapes when I run the signal through some sound processing software (even to just normalize).  Thus for me, I am willing to have the occasional very mild clip to get the best signal onto tape (for my way of listening) without the need to do post production processing.

Bottom line, this really isn't a right and wrong thing.  There are tradeoffs in how we record and listen and different people will have different ideas on what they prefer.  Clearly, you and I differ in that, but I'm not willing to concede that the tapes I've made that have had very mild clipping (and remember, my V3 lights the clip indicators up after three 0db samples in a row) sound bad.

All that said, I think the limiter function of the mp2 is an _extremely_ useful function to have when you stealth tape, and I often miss not having mine still.

1db I would agree you aren't going to hear, having a peak at 3db would prolly sound crunchy.  For your situation setting the mp-2 to allow up to 1db would work well, and anything past that would start to get nasty sounding so it is a trade off, have clipped peaks that are not recoverable (I know that there is software that tries, but it never makes it as if it didn't happen to begin with) or lose a bit of soundstaging and have an unclipped recording.
 
For recording situations where the dynamic range is fairly limited (i.e. a loud concert) a limiter is not going to help you, agreed.  For situations where you have a very wide dynamic range (i.e. vocals) you can think you set the level correctly and find that the singer just went from a whisper to 120+ spl, a limiter is almost a required, or at least the ability to ride the levels (which basically is what a good limiter SHOULD be doing)

Would I run it all the time?  No, but there are situations that without it, you would have to constantly ride the gain just to get a usuable recording and in doing that it might not sound any better than if you had used a limiter... 

All that said, it is a good idea to have the limiter preset on the MP-2 so that if and when you decide you might need it, it would be there.  Without setting it up for your recording device, you won't have that option. 

[F.O.Bean]

hehehe, use a v3, clipping isnt really audible

sorry, its my bday and im drunk!