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Author Topic: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)  (Read 24690 times)

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Offline martin.leese

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 12:33:50 AM »
is it correct to assume a mic like this would be great at concert with a quadraphonic system? like the pink floyd one http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140793.0

then playback on the same type of system, wow that would be cool.

Assuming you recorded B-Format, playback would be on an Ambisonic system.  The page on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonics, is a good place to start.

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 04:56:42 AM »
I have a Tetramic, as well as some decent other mics (Sennheiser, Beyer, Oktava, Avenson).

My experience with it is this:  It can really sound good.  Like, spooky realism.  But...it is going to have some of the same limitations of any coincident pair.  You cannot just place it anywhere and expect to fix it all in post.  Coincident cardioids usually don't sound very spacious, so it usually needs to be decoded to something between hypers and Blumlein to reach its potential.  As such, the distance to the source is important.  You have to try to keep the source in the 90-degree recording angle as if you were using Blumlein.  Too close gives you wierd image problems, and too far gives you too much reverb.  Yes, you can fix that in post - but the further you are from proper placement usually requires fixing that by dialing out more of the rear lobes that provide the spacious sound.  You will be left with something closer to coincident cardioids.  Most of us would prefer near-coincident cards to that, I'm sure. 

In sum - think of it as a flexible Blumlein or hyper pair that lets you tweak it in post.  If you are in a situation where you would never use Blumlein or coincident hypers, you would not like an ambisonic mic either.  If you dig Blumlein or coincident hypers and know how to use them, this mic will make you very happy.  You will have much more margin of error with this than with a pair of fig. 8's or hypers.  Just not as much as with near-coincident cards.  But if it's right, it will sound way better than near-coincident cards.  Make sense?

With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.  You will need to make no excuses.

Agreed.  I would say that when run Blumlein, close to the source, I've not heard anything sound as natural as the ST350. 
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Offline burris

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 09:27:45 AM »
As such, the distance to the source is important.  With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.
Isn't this the case any time one uses microphones?

Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 10:04:34 AM »
As such, the distance to the source is important.  With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.
Isn't this the case any time one uses microphones?

I do not believe all mics will sound equally as good as one another even in their best placement.  The question I was answering was to the effect of: does the Tetramic have the potential to sound as good as other pro mics, or will it sound like a lesser-quality mic.  Also, to dispel the possible notion some might have that an ambisonic mic can be placed anywhere and still sound good because it can be adjusted in post.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:07:38 AM by leddy »
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 11:05:11 AM »
Thank you for those very good points.   Your thoughts confirmed more or less what I had kind of suspected- that these can be incredible if used in an ideal spot (true of any mic) and give you more options depending what spot you're in.  It sounds like if you do a majority of upfront or close work, it's a great solution, and you can always run from somewhere else and decode back to hyper or something... BUT if you are normally in, say, the back of rooms, taper sections, etc., using one of these and decoding to hyper is kind of a waste - you would achieve better sound buying HQ hypers and running them in one of the more typical spaced configs like DINa or DIN. 

All that said, it is still a very intriguing option. 

Have you ever had the opportunity to compare the Tetramic to, say, the SPS200?
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 12:11:06 PM »
I agree that if the capsules are of somewhat "lower quality" than Schoeps, DPA, etc. it is potentially an issue...

My understanding is that Soundfield capsules would be equal in quality to Schoeps.  I understand they are made by MBHO in Germany for them (the same people that make the capsules fro Brauner).

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 12:36:20 PM »
I agree that if the capsules are of somewhat "lower quality" than Schoeps, DPA, etc. it is potentially an issue...

My understanding is that Soundfield capsules would be equal in quality to Schoeps.  I understand they are made by MBHO in Germany for them (the same people that make the capsules fro Brauner).
MBHO are different than Schoeps, right?  Nothing wrong with them, but they are a different capsule.  I was also more concerned about the Coresound capsules than the MBHO.  Who makes the Coresound capsules?


My main point was that if you don't need adjustable patterns, you could always buy a pair of MBHO, Neumann, Scheops, etc.


The OP above mentioned Blumlein.  This is one case where i think the Soundfield shines.  It is probably cheaper to get a Soundfield than a pair of Fig 8 mics, and it is adjustable too...


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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 01:35:09 PM »
I have a Tetramic, as well as some decent other mics (Sennheiser, Beyer, Oktava, Avenson).

My experience with it is this:  It can really sound good.  Like, spooky realism.  But...it is going to have some of the same limitations of any coincident pair.  You cannot just place it anywhere and expect to fix it all in post.  Coincident cardioids usually don't sound very spacious, so it usually needs to be decoded to something between hypers and Blumlein to reach its potential.  As such, the distance to the source is important.  You have to try to keep the source in the 90-degree recording angle as if you were using Blumlein.  Too close gives you wierd image problems, and too far gives you too much reverb.  Yes, you can fix that in post - but the further you are from proper placement usually requires fixing that by dialing out more of the rear lobes that provide the spacious sound.  You will be left with something closer to coincident cardioids.  Most of us would prefer near-coincident cards to that, I'm sure. 

In sum - think of it as a flexible Blumlein or hyper pair that lets you tweak it in post.  If you are in a situation where you would never use Blumlein or coincident hypers, you would not like an ambisonic mic either.  If you dig Blumlein or coincident hypers and know how to use them, this mic will make you very happy.  You will have much more margin of error with this than with a pair of fig. 8's or hypers.  Just not as much as with near-coincident cards.  But if it's right, it will sound way better than near-coincident cards.  Make sense?

With regard to the quality - it's all about placement.  If the mic is in the right spot, it will sound outstanding.  You will need to make no excuses.

I also have a Tetramic and this description is spot on.  I hesitate to say anything else but I will, simply in an attempt to help fully explain what its real world values are for me, and also what it isn’t.  Now it seems I've typed way too much..


First the ‘in the field side’-

Like leddy, I find it useful to think of it primarily as a very good, compact, coincident hyper/blumlien pair with fine-tuning.  If a coincident hyper or bumlein pair works for the situation, then this mic can do the job very well.  Both the Tetramic and it's associated cabling (mini-xlr based) is amazingly small, lightweight and compact.  With the foam windscreen on it looks like a simple single point stereo mic with one thin mic cable.  It is pretty discrete appearing.. a visual sleeper.  It is very easy to use when recording, and hides the complexity of decoding and file management until after you get home. I’ve configured it for my girlfriend and she has taken it to a show without me and run it without any problems. She simply clamped to a rail, attached the mic with its single cable, powered up the recorder and rolled.  Microphone location is as important as ever, but pointing it accurately is not at all, since that can be completely adjusted for later.  Pretty simple to setup one mic and cable, then press record.

Understand that I’m primarily a spaced/baffled omni guy and like time-based information, especially in my surround recordings.  The limitation to coincident patterns is a pretty big constraint for me, and the primary constraint of any ambisonic mic.  If and when I can, I often try to run additional spaced omni outriggers, but if the situation is perfect for Blumlein, they aren’t really needed. I think this thing would work quite nicely with the Tascam DR-680 now that the most recent firmware apparently allows linking of input gain controls, but also because of the possibility of running an additional pair of spaced mics, synced on the same recorder. 
 
I’m running it into an R-44 which powers the mic via four phantom powering adaptors.  The need for the bulk of the phantom adapters in the recording bag, the additional steps to assure matching channel gains on the R-44 and the post processing are somewhat of a PITA, but if the quality of the recording is more important to you than making those extra efforts, that may be a worthwhile tradeoff.  It is for me. Honestly it’s amazing that the rig is as small as it is, but still, I’d really like to be able to ditch the phantom adapters.


The ‘back at home side’-

Much is said about the decoding and virtual mic aspects of an ambsonic recording system.  I’m focusing solely on stereo playback here.  I have yet to explore the surround decoding options (it’s decodable to standard 5.1, 7.1, etc. type configurations, as well as true 3-D ambisonic playback systems which I and most others have never seen or heard), even though I do significant surround recording using other, time based mic arrays.  I’ll explain why that is some other time if anyone is interested.

For stereo, I think it helps to think of this as simply a more tweakable Mid/Side technique, like a more advanced mid/side plugin.  Like Mid/Side, there is usually a relatively small range of settings where things actually sound best.  That usually means hypercardioid/fig-8’ish patterns, plus making slight adjustments to mic angle, rotation and elevation.  Unlike standard stereo Mid/Side, the mic pattern and angle are independently adjustable, which helps in optimizing the settings, but again the key is dialing it in an optimizing it, rather than some ability to point a virtual mic of any 1st order pattern in any direction. Tweaking the overall mic rotation and elevation (point up toward stacks or more straight at stage from farther back, horizontal at floor level amps or up at the the musicians holding the instruments themselves from stagelip) is quite useful in that optimization as well.

The only gross-level adjustment that is really applicable for stereo is the rotation/elevation control. If there is a rather narrow practical range of settings for dialing in the specifics of the virtual stereo mic array itself, that array itself can be pointed in any direction at all. The first time I ran the mic I had it pointed 90 degrees to the side instead of ahead and simply rotated everything 90 degrees when decoding. As mentioned this is the exception to the ‘mostly useful for fine-tuning, but that fine-tuning is important ’ aspect of the thing.


Why I went with it-

I looked at it cost wise and usage wise similarly to Brian. His analysis is right on.
 
I record multichannel already, but I’ve been moving to more compact and easy to run rigs.  This is compact and very easy to run and I can use it in conjunction with my spaced techniques. I like the technical stuff, experimentation with different techniques, surround recording and options and it certainly fits those descriptions.  I like playing around with different ways of using my multi-channel recordings and don’t feel pressure to track and upload swiftly so the post work isn’t an issue for me. I’ve read a lot about ambisonics and this it a relatively inexpensive way of getting into it and exploring it.  I also feel like using this mic has helped deepen my real world understanding of  how 1st order microphones actually behave acoustically, as well as the limitations of coincident and spaced techniques.

I like the approach of using specific measurement corrections to match the capsules in each individual Tetramic and see that as one of the real technical strong points of the system, leveraging the use of software in addition to doing the A to B format conversion and specific stereo mic decoding.  I feel that helps offset many of the potential drawbacks of using less than premium grade mic capsules and may be an advantage of the Core approach over Soundfield’s in maxizing performance vs cost.

I talked with both Soundfield’s US reps and with Len at Core.  Soundfield couldn’t answer many of my questions or point me to anyone who could, they assured me they could order a mic from England, but that was about the extent of their support.  Len was quite helpful and went out of his way to get the mic to me very quickly before a recording opportunity.  I realize this might not reflect the experience of others here, but it’s my experience.

Why don’t more tapers use it? Compared to typical mid grade stereo rigs it’s not inexpensive, it’s conceptually complex and not well understood by most people, and it requires more post work.  Ambisonic mics are only available from a few manufacturers, and relatively afforable examples have only recently become available, plus it’s a bit of  a leading edge technology, even if it has a 35+ year history behind it.  For me it's a great way to explore my interests in sound and its reproduction as well as a simply being tool for making great recordings.
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Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 03:43:03 PM »
It sounds like if you do a majority of upfront or close work, it's a great solution

Just want to reiterate - In my experiences with the Tetramic, too close is no good either (like Blumlein).  Keep the recording angle around 90 degrees for optimal results.  You can often salvage recordings not done at the right distance, but you will not get the same satisfaction.
Jazz musician - String bass. 
Gear:  Edirol R44(2), Sytek Pres, Byer MC930's, Oktava MC012's, Avenson STO's, & Beyer M160/130's.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 04:24:42 PM »
Wise and true words.  I'll note that there is always an exception to the rule.  The last few years over Thanksgiving I've recorded an annual family Monopoly game at my parent's house, to document family interaction as my nieces and nephew grow up.  This year I plopped the Tetramic down in the center of the board, recorded the game with players encircling the table, then let them each take turns with the headphones listening to portions of the Blumlein decode off my laptop.  Sounded great, even the direct sounds from the out of phase regions.. I haven't listened to it on speakers though, and actual soundstage accuracy wasn't important in this case, only good upfront clarity, a nice sense of space and a differing placement of each voice.  Not a typical music gig.

I recorded Bobby Lee Rodgers in a small room doing Coltrane in a jazz trio setting before Thanksgiving, essentially stage-lip directly in front of the band with the mic on a short stand beneath our table.  In that case the included angle from the mic's perspective was just under 90 degrees.  If there is interest, I might post a B-format sample for anyone interested in playing around with the stereo decoding using the available free B-format applications.. once I get the tracks sorted and the time to do it.  I might be able to also put up my spaced/baffled omni surround version up for comparison, or a stereo down-mix of it (or just the L/R pair) which is probably more practical.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline leddy

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2010, 04:48:14 PM »
Wise and true words.  I'll note that there is always an exception to the rule.  The last few years over Thanksgiving I've recorded an annual family Monopoly game at my parent's house, to document family interaction as my nieces and nephew grow up.  This year I plopped the Tetramic down in the center of the board, recorded the game with players encircling the table, then let them each take turns with the headphones listening to portions of the Blumlein decode off my laptop.  Sounded great, even the direct sounds from the out of phase regions.. I haven't listened to it on speakers though, and actual soundstage accuracy wasn't important in this case, only good upfront clarity, a nice sense of space and a differing placement of each voice.  Not a typical music gig.

I recorded Bobby Lee Rodgers in a small room doing Coltrane in a jazz trio setting before Thanksgiving, essentially stage-lip directly in front of the band with the mic on a short stand beneath our table.  In that case the included angle from the mic's perspective was just under 90 degrees.  If there is interest, I might post a B-format sample for anyone interested in playing around with the stereo decoding using the available free B-format applications.. once I get the tracks sorted and the time to do it.  I might be able to also put up my spaced/baffled omni surround version up for comparison, or a stereo down-mix of it (or just the L/R pair) which is probably more practical.

I would love to hear the b-format files.  I also love baffled omnis, so the comparison would be awesome.  I actually built a sphere mic I'm quite proud of when I need baffled omnis up close to the music. 
Jazz musician - String bass. 
Gear:  Edirol R44(2), Sytek Pres, Byer MC930's, Oktava MC012's, Avenson STO's, & Beyer M160/130's.

Offline linv5800

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2010, 05:45:22 PM »
Since ive been here , Ive learned a valuble , valuble lesson .
I have a ton to learn . Im just greatful that theres a place
like this to wet my appitite .
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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2010, 05:59:50 PM »
Since ive been here , Ive learned a valuble , valuble lesson .
I have a ton to learn . Im just greatful that theres a place
like this to wet my appitite .


12 years later I still havn't scratched the surface... 

As far as this ambisonics stuff goes, i really like the concept.  I have been using a M/S stereo mic recently (AT4050ST).  The biggest problem with M/S is that the polar pattern is linked to width.  As you narrow the image the mic become more cardioid in polar pattern.  Thats counterproductive for many of the sources I record.  An ambisonic mic would give me controll of all of those variables in post.  I've been looking at picking up a single AT4050 to run double M/S, that seems fairly similar to this ambisonic stuff... 

Cool thread!
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Re: Soundfield and Coresound Tetramic (and ambisonic mics generally)
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2010, 09:36:15 AM »
Rubbin' elbows with the tuxedo clad & defining an entire category along with Aspen, eh?
 ;D

Quote
SoundField Opera Houses and Concert Halls Using the SoundField Microphones
Opera/Concert Halls/Orchestras/Live Music

Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, London, UK
London Symphony Orchestra at LSO St Luke's, London, UK (MKV)
Sage Gateshead, Newcastle, UK
Concertgebouw, Brugge, Belgium
Athens Concert Hall, Athens, Greece
Gothenborg Opera, Gothenborg, Sweden
Finnish National Opera, Helsinki, Finland
Palais des beaux arts, Brussels, Belgium
Royal Exchange Theatre, Manchester, UK
Turku City Theatre, Turku, Finland
Glyndebourne Opera House, U
The Royal Opera House, Stockholm, Sweden
Opera de Paris (Opera Garnier) Paris, France
Aspen Music Festival, Colorado, USA
Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, USA (SPS422B)
Gran Teatre Del Liceu Opera House, Barcelona, Spain (ST350)
La Scala Opera House, Milan, Italy (DSF-2)
Team Dirty South Tapers, USA (ST250, SPS200 x 2)
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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