Topic: Some onstage questions...

[acidjack]

A venue I attend frequently has completely changed its interior layout in such a way that I will need to reconsider my setup in there. I used to have a protected balcony spot to use, but now, the only good mounting option is a pole that is right in the middle of the floor and thus susceptible to drunk people, etc. 

This venue is very friendly to me and will let me do just about anything I want within reason, so I am thinking about transitioning to onstage, which would allow me to stand off to the right side of the stage with my gear out of the way and continue to get the SBD feed I always get. 

Most of the bands that play there are either indie rock type bands or electronic/DJ type bands. I'm usually recording bands with the usual combo of vox/bass/guitars/keys.  As I said, I always get a board patch and that patch usually has at least vox/keys in it as well as sometimes guitar/bass. 

I'm thinking about running my AKG 414s dead center in front of the stage.  I'm thinking about several different ideas, but the most viable would seem to be wide card or M/S.  I really don't want to go to the trouble of getting out 2 stands so I could run split omni, unless someone thinks that will be MUCH better.  I could also just tape down some 4061s and split them as far as I could. 

Primarily, I'm curious whether the recording will sound "right" being a rock band and picking up basically what is coming out of their onstage monitors.  I know this would not work without an SBD patch due to the vocal issues alone, but I am imagining, from limited past experience, that the wide cards + SBD should sound great.

I know less about M/S and exactly whether that would work for this situation. I know it is ideal for being able to select the width of image, but it is not clear to me whether it woudl be optimal in a situation where the drums would likely be right in front of the M channel... I also have never done M/S before at all, but I figure a venue like this that is pretty easy would be a good one to learn...

Any thoughts appreciated.

[page]

A venue I attend frequently has completely changed its interior layout in such a way that I will need to reconsider my setup in there. I used to have a protected balcony spot to use, but now, the only good mounting option is a pole that is right in the middle of the floor and thus susceptible to drunk people, etc. 

Got a picture of the pole and where it connects to the ceiling?

One of the things I learned from Richard (illconditioned) was to look at how structural elements play out and clamping opportunities. It might be that if you took a stripped down bag (say, just the M10 + littlebox and a single set of mics in the smallest bag you can get them in and then hang it or stand in front of the pole and have it on your shoulder).

anyway, back to your original question.

This venue is very friendly to me and will let me do just about anything I want within reason, so I am thinking about transitioning to onstage, which would allow me to stand off to the right side of the stage with my gear out of the way and continue to get the SBD feed I always get. 

Most of the bands that play there are either indie rock type bands or electronic/DJ type bands. I'm usually recording bands with the usual combo of vox/bass/guitars/keys.  As I said, I always get a board patch and that patch usually has at least vox/keys in it as well as sometimes guitar/bass. 

I'm thinking about running my AKG 414s dead center in front of the stage.  I'm thinking about several different ideas, but the most viable would seem to be wide card or M/S.  I really don't want to go to the trouble of getting out 2 stands so I could run split omni, unless someone thinks that will be MUCH better.  I could also just tape down some 4061s and split them as far as I could. 

Primarily, I'm curious whether the recording will sound "right" being a rock band and picking up basically what is coming out of their onstage monitors.  I know this would not work without an SBD patch due to the vocal issues alone, but I am imagining, from limited past experience, that the wide cards + SBD should sound great.

I know less about M/S and exactly whether that would work for this situation. I know it is ideal for being able to select the width of image, but it is not clear to me whether it woudl be optimal in a situation where the drums would likely be right in front of the M channel... I also have never done M/S before at all, but I figure a venue like this that is pretty easy would be a good one to learn...

Any thoughts appreciated.

I've done onstage or stage lip with rock bands before out of necessity, and in my experience if you get a vocal patch it can be ok. The caveat that I've learned is that you have to spread the mics fairly far otherwise you're getting lots of drums (to the tune of 20db more then anything else). If your stage is say 20' across, then spread the mics about 8-10' and put them equidistant from the drums if it's centered. Then just align the aud tracks later in post based on drum beats to try and bring them back to the center of the image. Then bring in the vocals and if it sounds too dry or out of place add a touch of reverb to place them in the room. Alternatively, you could tighten up the spacing and run figure 8s which will reject some of that drum (and give it a directional sense across the soundstage, never tried it but it's an idea).

Now, if the band curled around the mic, M/S would work, especially if the drums were recessed a bit in the back because then you can start to bring in the M channel to create a wider pattern and slimmer soundstage. But I wouldnt' try it if everyone is all in a row. Your side sounds will be too distant compared to a center drums.

If you get stuck without a sbd patch, then I know some people who have had ok luck with hypers on stage and the rear lob is spot micing the monitor. The vocals are out of phase to everything else, but you aren't really getting those vocals anywhere else so it doesn't matter as much. That's sort of a crap shoot IMHO unless you are going to do an AB setup with monitors on each side of the stage.

On a side note, what would be really awesome is if you could either have your patch sent to the stage or have your mics sent through the snake.

[acidjack]

^^ Thanks.  I took a pic of my mics on the pole, but not where the pole is in the room.  It's not the end of the world in terms of placement; the main problem is that you need a chair to get up high enough to use the clamp on this little shelf that extends out from the pole, and as you correctly point out, then the bag is sitting there exposed on the floor.  It's not the worst blocking situation in the world, but certainly not ideal because of it being so close to the stage. 

When you suggest running Fig8, are you suggesting going blumlein onstage?  That would seem to answer at least some of the issue about the drums overwhelming everything else. 

It sounds like onstage is likely not the ideal move for amplified rock.  I guess one other question would be, would using omnis solve any of those problems?

The one thing I could not do, I don't think, is run my mics through the snake.  I get the impression there aren't many free slots in theirs; the house gear is pretty crappy.

[SmokinJoe]

On stage (or stage lip) + SBD is certainly worth trying.  It depends on how big the stage is, but it will probably work well most of the time, with occasional imbalances.

Usually when I run stage lip I get plenty of bass and electric guitar cabs, more than enough snare, toms, cymbals, high hat, and a nice wide sense of space.  If the organ has a leslie, you'll probably get a nice shot of that.  What you won't get is enough vocals (unless you happen to be picking it up from on stage monitors), not enough kick drum thump, and nothing from direct instruments... guitars on DI, keys, etc... you won't get any of that.

Interestingly enough, a lot of the SBD feeds I get are all kick drum, vocals, and keys, so it balances out.  Occasionally it won't balance out.  That's the luck of the draw sometimes.

As page says, if you are just a few feet from the drums, and the drummer is an animal, they will be overpowering.  If you can get back from the drums a little, it's not too bad.  I would try the 414 subcards in kind of a NOS setup.  If it's really thumpy music, go for cards instead, or it could be muddy (been there, done that, with those particular 414's).

Mid/side is one of those things everyone should try a few times.  It's a good learning experience and perhaps even a right of passage to battle your way through the software to find your preferred way of doing it.  If you have too much drums in the middle, you can cut back on the mid.  If you have too much reverberation on walls, you can cut back on the sides.  But, it's not going to make gold out of lead.

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If you can clamp to the pole, get a set of long XLR cables and run them down the pole, across the floor to your bag, or run them overhead if there is something to clip to.  I do both fairly often.  If you run across the floor, tape them down to the floor so no one can trip on the cables.  Don't use exotic thin silver clad cables across the floor where people are stepping on them.  Go to the local music store and get some "on stage" grade mic cables for that.  I have a $50 pair of Monster cables I've been using like that for a few years.  No breakage yet.

[acidjack]

^^^ Also great advice.

Well, the first show I am doing is one I don't really care about anyway, so I may as well try the onstage method.  I was thinking what you suggested - as much like NOS as I can get, wide cards.

I'm assuming you're saying that M/S is really not appropriate for this (even though I should teach myself how to do it at some point..)?

But you're right, I hadn't even though about just leaving the mics on the pole and using cheap long XLRs to run across the floor to somewhere out of the way.  It isn't even that much of a distance, either....

[page]

If you can clamp to the pole, get a set of long XLR cables and run them down the pole, across the floor to your bag, or run them overhead if there is something to clip to.  I do both fairly often.  If you run across the floor, tape them down to the floor so no one can trip on the cables.  Don't use exotic thin silver clad cables across the floor where people are stepping on them.  Go to the local music store and get some "on stage" grade mic cables for that.  I have a $50 pair of Monster cables I've been using like that for a few years.  No breakage yet.

1) I've actually carried extra clamps (to act as hooks) or duct/gaffer tape when there wasn't natural hooks to hang the cables from so I could string them across the ceiling.

2) I agree, get mic/stage cables if they are going to be stepped on, they will take more of a beating then our typical silver cables.

But you're right, I hadn't even though about just leaving the mics on the pole and using cheap long XLRs to run across the floor to somewhere out of the way.  It isn't even that much of a distance, either....

use wide tape and tape the entire distance to prevent/reduce tripping. Thats the only way I've ever seen a venue approve that sort of manuever. Go for the up and over if you can help it.

^^ Thanks.  I took a pic of my mics on the pole, but not where the pole is in the room.  It's not the end of the world in terms of placement; the main problem is that you need a chair to get up high enough to use the clamp on this little shelf that extends out from the pole, and as you correctly point out, then the bag is sitting there exposed on the floor.  It's not the worst blocking situation in the world, but certainly not ideal because of it being so close to the stage.

yeah, almost all ceiling clamping I've done requires getting to the venue when load in occurs or when they doors open and having a positive relationship with the manager who will let me use a chair or ladder.

If you've got a shelf, consider clamping mics up there. If I were you, I'd really investigate this and going across the ceiling if I got a patch before going across the ground, but I have a preference for it, ymmv.

When you suggest running Fig8, are you suggesting going blumlein onstage?  That would seem to answer at least some of the issue about the drums overwhelming everything else. 

It sounds like onstage is likely not the ideal move for amplified rock.  I guess one other question would be, would using omnis solve any of those problems?

in my experience, omnis work if they are away from the drums (such as AB near the monitors), while fig8s work in blumlein or as AB next to monitors.

[allan]

Ive had pretty good results taping on stage by splitting the mics and i guess the easiest way to put it is using them as distant guitar cab mics, placing them on front of stage pointed towards guitar/bass and letting drums fill in, and then adding the vox/keys from the sbd in post. I'd never put my 414s up there though, I think I was using a pair of C1000s for that at the time. The longer permanantly installed xlrs running through the ceiling is a good idea as well, just dont place the mics too high, ive taped in a similar situation, off a beam that runs across close to the stage, the mics were higher up than the mains and didn't catch enough of the vocals.

[brianp]

Do the 414's have a subcard setting? You might be surprised how well they pick up the vocals and main PA, plus all of the stage sound. It all depends on the room, but I've found with subcards that placing them onstage or stage lip will result in a very well mixed recording even if the main PA is "behind" the microphones on stage.

I like ORTF wide with my subcards onstage. I would imagine cards would work pretty well in this situation, too. Or at least it would be worth experimenting with it once or twice.

[acidjack]

The 414s do have a "wide card" setting, which is what I was thinking of using.

Running from the shelf is also fine, but it'll require floor taping if I do that.   The venue's ceiling is too high to get up there to run cables.

[johnnyrockstar]

some discussion on onstage omni recording here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=143071.15

there's also a link to some shows on the LMA that i've done onstage with good results....