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When do you like to run your LD mics?

There's a specific type of music I like to record with them.
1 (5.3%)
There's a specific location (onstage, outdoors, etc.)
11 (57.9%)
There's no specific time; whenever I "feel like it"
4 (21.1%)
When I don't know what pattern I might want
0 (0%)
I can't remember the last time I ran mine
3 (15.8%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Author Topic: When do you run your LD mics?  (Read 5988 times)

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Offline acidjack

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When do you run your LD mics?
« on: March 17, 2013, 01:52:50 PM »
For those who own SDCs and LD mics, I'm just curious when other people run theirs.
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2013, 04:36:38 PM »
Blumlein, in theaters and other prime rooms when I can park in the sweet spot. I really want to run them omni on stage, but I haven't had a great opportunity.
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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2013, 05:31:09 PM »
I ran the Milab's NOS and the ADK TL's Blumlein at the Blind Tiger this week...Cards seemed to have a bit more bass which really surprised me...

I'll put up a sample Monday when I have some more time...
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Offline DiggerinVA

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2013, 06:22:15 PM »
My main mic's are LD's.(B-3's are the others) Someday I may get sdc, I would like a hyper cardioid then. The bottom line is they record what I hear at a show. Yes I prefer a good sounding hall to a barn, but even back when I ran ME-80's the hall had a major effect on the sound of the show.
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2013, 09:30:13 PM »
I ran the Milab's NOS and the ADK TL's Blumlein at the Blind Tiger this week...Cards seemed to have a bit more bass which really surprised me...

I'm not as surprised; figure 8s typically have a sizable roll off.
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2013, 12:33:47 AM »
I really want to run them omni on stage, but I haven't had a great opportunity.

I got a chance to tape Chris Boerner Trio at the Pour House on stage / omni TLs...  It was a random weeknight and there was hardly anyone there...  Its still one of my best tapes...

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2013, 10:03:49 AM »
I really liked my busman LD on bluegrass.
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2013, 12:20:07 PM »
on stage
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Offline acidjack

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2013, 01:11:50 PM »
on stage

Can I ask why?  (I've seen your setup).  Meaning only, obviously LDs are big (particularly, IIRC, the TL's you run), so they are inconvenient for low-profile applications.  Do you run them onstage because (a) you feel they impart a particularly good quality to sound that's up close or (b) because you can switch patterns easily to adjust to the situation?

My understanding of LDs is that the larger diaphragms are more prone to uneven off-axis response (there's an old topic on this that I started that has lots of good info: taperssection.com/index.php?topic=127310.0)  So, if you're up close, are you thinking that's less of an issue? 
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2013, 05:40:56 PM »
I do like the sound of them used up close, which is part of it.  And the ability to change patterns, which for me is more about the adjusting for the configuration I want to run (which takes the room into account), rather than adjusting to an unknown situation.


Here’s a few reasons, most of which are determined by simple practicality and what mics I have available, some fit the poll categories:

Biggest one is probably that it’s far less of a hassle for me to plop the TLs on-stage rather than fly them up in the air on a stand farther back.

I’m always running some configuration of 3 main channels (Left/Center/Right), and I have 3 ADK TLs, and multiples of the same small omnis, but only pairs of directional SDs.  The switchable patterns make it possible to play around with various 3 channel configurations using the same mics but different patterns and arrangements.  It’s not that I don’t know what pattern I will run before I get there- I know what pattern I want to run beforehand, and can use the same mics for various setups I want to try. Up close, I’ve recently been leaning towards mic arrays that leverage pattern directionality, both for sharper imaging and to allow for less necessary spacing between the mics of the array. That certainly isn’t exclusive to on stage recording, but simply applies to the situations I was experimenting with, which did not involve not taping from farther back.   Recording from farther back I’m typically outside and running wide spaced miniature omnis either as L/R mics with directional mics for center and surrounds, or using spaced miniature omnis all around.

Until recently the TLs were my only mics with a supercardioid pattern, so if I wanted to run a configuration using supercards, they were the only ones to use.  I’m primarily using the supercard pattern to get sufficient isolation between 3 main channels with the mics in relatively close proximity rather than to exclude bad room effects or audience noise.

Exception-
Now that I’ve picked up Smokin’ Joe’s Gefell M210 SD supercardioids, I’ll start substituting those in some situations where I’ve been using the TLs in supercardioid mode.

I did run the 3 TLs in supercarioid (+ surround cards) from farther back in a room a few months ago for MMW mostly because I wanted to see how well the on-stage setup I’ve homed in on with them recently would work farther back in the room.  It was a challenge flying 3 TLs and two SD cards (full 1” diameter bodies) from a single railing clamped pole with drunks all around!

I have a Peluso P-Stereo (coincident stereo LD) which is a nice mic that I simply prefer the sound of up close rather than farther away.  I do like it on stage but use it mostly for close mic’ing my acoustic guitar where it provides more flattering character than my more ‘transparent’ mics.  That one is a mostly a flavor choice that favors closer use.

I haven’t noticed much of an off-axis response problem with the Peluso or the TLs, which is not to say it they don’t have issues there, just that I haven’t noticed it.



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Offline Hypnocracy

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2013, 05:02:55 AM »
https://soundcloud.com/hypnocracy/adktlblumlein-milabnos

Have not had a chance to listen too except on Headphones...would like to hear on the playback system

Note that in this room unless I can run multiple sources (Aud plus on stage or SNB) this room has been a disappointment in the past.

Milab V44 Card NOS>Grace V2>Tascam DR680
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Offline DSatz

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 09:07:21 AM »
(I rewrote this post because some people complained that it was obscure. I hope this version is better.)

I think that two things are getting confused here. Nearly all large-diaphragm microphones have dual-diaphragm capsules, and nearly all dual-diaphragm capsules have large diaphragms. A few types of microphone have been made (and some are still) with large, single diaphragms or with small, dual diaphragms, but they are definite exceptions. As a result many people confuse the categories, and attribute sonic qualities to large-diaphragm microphones that are actually due to the dual-diaphragm capsule construction which most LDCs have.

Since so much recording is done with cardioid microphones, I'll focus on them. Dual-diaphragm cardioids all lose directivity substantially at low frequencies; their pickup patterns become more like a "wide cardioid." Please see the attached polar diagram for the leading microphone of this type, the Neumann U 87; its low frequency curves are on the left. Notice how they "bloom outward" at the sides and back as the frequency decreases. With the older, shared-backplate type of dual-diaphragm capsule such as the one in the Neumann U 47, this loss of directivity at low frequencies is even more pronounced.

This is one reason cardioid LDCs are the traditional choice for close-miking of vocal soloists in studios: Not only does proximity effect give them a bass and mid-bass boost for front-arriving sound, but the deterioration of their pattern at low frequencies causes them to pick up extra room sound at those frequencies. So they sound "rounder" and "fuller" and "warmer" than if they were true cardioids all across the spectrum. But that's not because of their diaphragm size; it's because of their dual-diaphragm construction. Small dual-diaphragm cardioids have similar low-frequency characteristics.

Here's where I may have to ruffle a few feathers, which I hate to do (cough, cough): The above-mentioned low-frequency pattern characteristic turns into a real disadvantage for recording in stereo with coincident or closely-spaced dual-diaphragm cardioids. The widening of the directional pattern reduces the difference (increases the correlation) between the channels. The low frequency part of the direct sound tends toward imaging in the center in playback--it becomes practically mono. Back in the LP era that was considered a good thing, since any difference between left and right channels translated into vertical groove modulation, and too much vertical modulation at low frequencies would lead to skipping. But difference information at low frequencies is also what gives a stereo recording a sense of spaciousness, so this is one of the areas in which digital recording is greatly superior to LPs.

To my way of thinking, coincident or closely-spaced stereo miking calls for directional patterns that are as uniform as possible across the audio frequency range--or alternatively, if the directional pattern of a cardioid could become narrower at low frequencies, that would produce more difference between the channels where it's needed. (Such patterns can be obtained with Soundfield microphones or with the Schoeps "Polarflex" system; the latter also allows for space between the left and right microphones of the pair). But using coincident, dual-diaphragm cardioids to record music in stereo is generally a rather bad idea, and it is only made worse when the capsules have large diaphragms.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 12:03:40 AM by DSatz »
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Offline DiggerinVA

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 09:33:44 AM »
D'Satz you actually explained something I like in the LD's sound. One question Define spaced? Distance, how wide? I think I am buying that bar I have wanted.
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Offline acidjack

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2013, 12:24:26 PM »
Nearly all LD microphones have a pair of diaphragms back-to-back, even if they're only single-pattern microphones, usually cardioids--and in any case the cardioid setting is most often used, whether simply from habit or from the lack of interest or opportunity to experiment.

Dual-diaphragm cardioids have a peculiar characteristic, which is that at low frequencies they lose directionality--they become more like "wide cardioids." This is one reason people like to use them on vocal soloists in studios: They not only get a bass boost from proximity effect, but they also pick up more room sound on the low end than if they maintained a true cardioid pattern at the bottom. So they tend to sound "rounder" and "fuller" and "warmer" in that type of application--their integrated response will have more low-frequency energy than the spec-sheet curves would lead you to expect, and there's more reflected, delayed sound pickup while the midrange stays "in focus."

Similar advantages occur when you record in stereo with a spaced pair of dual-diaphragm cardioids--you get an increase in "difference information" between the two channels at low frequencies, as compared to what you'd get from cardioids having a more uniform pattern across the frequency range--and that's almost always a good thing for the "feel" (spaciousness) of a stereo recording.

But that advantage doesn't apply to coincident or closely-spaced stereo recording with cardioids. On the contrary. In that application, the spreading out of the pattern at low frequencies means that the bass in the recording becomes less spacious and more like mono, since at any one point in space the bass energy of the direct sound picked up by the two channels is "highly correlated"--tending to be equal in amplitude and phase, or nearly so. Thus in the stereo image in playback, the low frequencies in the direct sound tend to localize toward the center.

Despite the bad effect on the sound, that characteristic offered a big practical advantage in the early stereo LP era, since it reduced the vertical modulation of the record groove (vertical modulation is proportional to the difference between L and R at a given moment, and is weighted heavily toward low frequencies by the RIAA curve). So coincident stereo greatly reduced the risk of needle "skipping," and also allowed more music to be cut onto one side of an LP. There's also a benefit for FM radio broadcasting, because mono compatibility (for direct sound, anyway) is practically guaranteed automatically when a stereo microphone is used rather than spaced or multi-mike configurations.

And historically, the early stereo LP era (mid-late 1950s) and the age when FM radio was used for live broadcasting of music is right about when stereo microphones and purist, coincident stereo recording had their heyday among professionals. Over the past few decades, though, those techniques have been used less and less even in classical recording, and the major manufacturers have been withdrawing from this category of microphone production more than they've been introducing new models. Many of the newer stereo microphones from the leading manufacturers are designed for TV sound more than for studio or live applications.

What this all leads to, for me, is the conclusion that dual-diaphragm stereo microphones set as cardioids, or coincident placement of dual-diaphragm cardioids in general, is rarely an optimal choice for the usual "semi-distant" type of stereo recording as compared with spaced placement of similar microphones, or the use of single-diaphragm cardioids for coincident or near-coincident "semi-distant" recording.

(All this before breakfast.)

--best regards

Fascinating post.  Thanks as always.
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 01:05:43 PM »
I like LD's at a particular local club (The Stone Church).  We hang mics on a low center beam which means they are maybe 3' over people's heads.  The mics pick up chatter.  At one point I ran Earthworks, which have almost zero off axis coloration, and they pick up the chatter an magnificent detail, and therefore you can almost understand the conversations, and it's extra annoying.  Then I switched to 414's and TL's. Hanging in that same location the chatter seems to be more muddled, and even if it's just as loud, it's less annoying because it's less clear.  I should say "I notice with LD's the chatter is less annoying", that part is true, and I've run a few different LDs and a few different SD's in that location.  Why it's less annoying?  I'm not positive.  I speculate it's because of the off axis coloration, but I may be all wrong.
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2013, 10:14:06 PM »
What this all leads to, for me, is the conclusion that dual-diaphragm stereo microphones set as cardioids, or coincident placement of dual-diaphragm cardioids in general, is rarely an optimal choice for the usual "semi-distant" type of stereo recording as compared with spaced placement of similar microphones, or the use of single-diaphragm cardioids for coincident or near-coincident "semi-distant" recording.

How much of a problem is there when using figure-8 patterns e.g. Blumlein or mid/side?

Is there an advantage (or disadvantage) to using a small-diaphragm cardioid as the Mid mic and a large-diaphgragm Side mic?
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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2013, 07:30:44 AM »

What this all leads to, for me, is the conclusion that dual-diaphragm stereo microphones set as cardioids, or coincident placement of dual-diaphragm cardioids in general, is rarely an optimal choice for the usual "semi-distant" type of stereo recording as compared with spaced placement of similar microphones, or the use of single-diaphragm cardioids for coincident or near-coincident "semi-distant" recording.


Although I have found that when matrixing this type of pattern with a soundboard feed, the results are usually better, "as compared with spaced placement of similar microphones, or the use of single-diaphragm cardioids for coincident or near-coincident "semi-distant" recording."

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 04:36:50 PM »
The LDC's greater volume of air inside the grilles makes it a lot easier to get rid of wind noise in my outside recordings. Simple foams plus a layer of fur and I'm fine until the wind gets so strong that it almost threatens to knock over the mic stands.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: When do you run your LD mics?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2013, 11:24:39 PM »
fotoralf, that is the first new claim in favor of LDCs that I've heard in many years, and what you say is certainly true in many cases. Thank you for surprising me, and good luck with all your recordings.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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