Topic: New Mics for Outdoor Open Taping

[mge]

Hello All.

Later in the summer I'm going to be going to see Dave Matthews Band in Phoenix.  I'd like to tape the show.

My current setup is as follows:  SP-CMC-2 (AT831s) -> SB-SPSB-1 -> SP-PREAMP-4 -> Archos Gmini 402.  This has been producing, tapes that sound good enough for me in smaller indoor venues.  However at these places I haven't run a stand or anything, I've just clipped the mics to my hat and had a go.

For the Dave Show I'm going to be much further back that normal.  The Seating Chart for the Venue is: http://static2.livenation.com/akamai/V0001/img/VENUE_MAP_L/113_21996_1.jpg.  I'll be in the front row of section 303, in the middle.  I've been thinking about spending some money (around $500, but could go as high as $600) for some new mics and a stand and all that jazz.

Here's where I need the help.  I'm still very much a newbie when it comes to this stuff.

I've been looking at the AKG c1000s and also the Studio Projects C4 mics.  The AKG's are interesting to me because of the hyper carido caps, which I think might be a better pick for something at this distance?  The Studio Project C4 mics don't seem to come with hypers, nor could I find hypers to buy for them.  OTOH they do come with some shockmounts, windscreens and a case which is nice for the budget.  With the AKGs I'd have to buy all that stuff seperately.

With either of these mics I'd have to run Phantom power, and this is where I get really confused.  I am guessing what I would have to do is get a phantom power box and run the XLR cabels from the mics to the box.  At this point I think all I'd have to do is somehow get the output to the preamp which runs to the Archos Mini?  The line in to the preamp just takes a normal 1/8th mini jack cable, so I think I would need some sort of 2 XLR -> 1/8th mini jack cable, or am I off base here?

Also I'd like to get a stand to put these things on, but I have no idea where to start for that.

Any insights on the Hypers vs Cards, Phantom Power, Stands or anything else would be really helpful.  Thanks in advance all.

[jeromejello]

i would go sp c-4 over akg 1000s any day.

if you insist on hypers, look into a little more loot and get the akg 390's and ck93 caps.

as far as powering goes... anything that provides phantom... the cheapest would be something like the ps-2 or other equivilant.  personally, i think you should look for a digimoded (or stock and do the mod) edirol ua-5.

the sp, ua-5, xlr cables plus an "air cushioned light stand" from ebay should get you right around 6 bills, give or take.  that set up will be a legit rig until you are ready for dropping in the g's for upgrades.

[china_rider]

I'd say grab the C4s and see if you can find a modded UA-5 our there.  Probably won't get a w/t/p mod, but for the price you mentioned you should be able to get a digi mod and the C4. 

FYI... For where you are going to be in the venue make sure you are going to run you stand pretty high.  You are directly behind the main walkway everyone uses to enter and exit the reserved seating area.  You are also going to be about 5 rows from the start of the lawn.  Cards might be a better bet then hypers since they will reject the sound from the rear lawn.

FYI... I'm taping for a friend.  Will be in the box area behind 103.  Not a big DMB fan but heck... I'll tape just about anything for free.  However, if he sings that damn grave digger song I may just have to pack up leave.

[mge]

as far as powering goes... anything that provides phantom... the cheapest would be something like the ps-2 or other equivilant.  personally, i think you should look for a digimoded (or stock and do the mod) edirol ua-5.

I've been looking around and it doesn't look like the UA-5's are sold anywhere new anymore?  There is a UA-25 but that looks like it requires USB which is something I don't have.  A glance on ebay doesn't show any to be purchased.  Assuming I go with just a phantom power supply how do I get the two XLR connectors back to 1/8th MiniJack?

Edit:  I also don't fully understand the point of the digimod.  From one page I read it says that it just allows the digital outputs to work without having to be hooked up to a USB port.  If that is true is it not really needed right now in my case, since I could just use the audio outputs?  My recorder doesn't have digital in.

[jeromejello]

before the pounce... i would suggest reading a bunch of the FAQ...

to answer the specific questions,
you cannot use a ua-5 without a computer attached to it in the field unless you have the digi mod done.  the digimod allows the ua-5 to output a digital signal (optical or coax) with having a computer plugged into the usb port at the back of the box.

the ua-5 is out of production, only available as used... the ua-25 is not suitable for standalone operation.

xlr > stereo mini interconnections are available on line and possibly at your local radio shack you can figure out how to make the xlr go to a stereo mini with plugs and cords...

**edit to add** if you dont have digital in on your recorder, you can get away with any preamp that just provides p48 power, since you dont need (or cant currently use, an outboard adc)... there is a huge list in the FAQ... and then run that line in to the archos... ps-2, rolls, sd mp-2, aerco mp-2, mv-100, sonosax, psp-2, psp-3 to name a few p48 sources of various prices

[Sanjay]

First off, taping DMB from that distance will likely be a disaster because the fans are just too loud to get a decent non stack tape normally.  Try it because its fun, but don't expect perfect results, I just enjoy the show if i'm out of the 100 level seats.   That said.

A.  For DMB especially, i'd run hypers.  A good hyper mic is the AKG 393, found used they can be had for $375-400.  The studio projects C4's are good mics but don't offer the hyper pattern yet.  However you can pick these up anywhere from $175-300 depending on used or new.  The c1000's don't require shockmounts, they are internally shockmounted. 

B. The UA-5 is a good choice, you'd have to find one used, either do the digimod yourself or buy a digimoded one from someone here.  I'd look at about $200-$250 for a regular digimod, not performance modded by busman or oade. 

C. The archos mini doesn't accept a digital signal in, which means you could run the UA-5 but the signal goes through the A/D back to a D/A, an unnecessary step.  I would look into a nomad jukebox 3, or an iriver ihp-120 with rockbox and ditch the archos.  Alternatively you can run the UA-5 (or many other USB pre's into a laptop if you have it)

D.  If I were you this is what i'd do.  I'd get rid of everything you have and buy a pair of SP-CMC-4 or 8's.  Basically AT853's or A943's (you have the AT831's), with the phantom power option, and run them into a Denecke PS-2 > AD-20 combo > jb3, or if you really want to keep your archos use a Sound devices mixpre/mp-2/shure fp-24.  This combo is nice because you can get Card, Omni, Hyper, Shotgun, and Subcard caps for the mics, when phantom powered they sound really nice, and are stealthable, so you can use your rig for both.  Many nice DMB tapes are made with these mics.

Also you can run these mics into a Church audio 3 wire pre, which I highly highly recommend if the gear is too big for you to stealth.

Any questions ask!

[china_rider]

UA-5 is not made new anymore.  The UA-5 was designed to be used with a computer and the digital outs would not work unless the unit was connected to a PC/Laptop.  The digimod allows the unit to be used standalone without a PC in the field.  There are also w/m/p/busman mods that upgrade the internals of the unit and make them sound better/different.  I would guess you could find a used digi mod ua-5 and buy new C-4s for the price you mentioned.  You would still need to buy a battery for the UA-5.  Go a little higher and you can find an oade mod unit.  The ua-5 will also do 24bit if you ever decide to upgrade your recorder.

There have been a few units on sale here in the yardsale in the last few weeks.  I think some are still available.  There is a very good chance I will be selling my w-mod UA-5 before the DMB show (probably in about 3-4 weeks.)  I just want to run the R-4 a few more times without it before I sell.

I've never run mics of a phantom box so can't help you there, but would suggest that if you think you are going to record more than DMB look for a decent pre that will drive the mics.  In the end you will probably be happier.

EDIT: The only reason I suggest cards instead of hypers is that the recording location is going to be in a place with alot of drunk crowd noise coming from about 4 rows back from the lawn, also if they have the lawn speakers turned on you will pick up some of that.  You may loose a bit of detail with the cards but at least you will reject what is behind you better.  Personally from 103 I'll be doing hypers.

[mge]

Thanks all for your help!

[jlykos]

If you are taping outdoors in a shed, think about using cards instead of hypers.  Hypercardioid caps can sound thin from a distance and also accentuate wind effects more than cards, even in a shed.  For a budget of around $500 - $800, you may want to look at something like AKG 391 mics > battery boxes > Hosa transformers > recording device.  You can get excellent results when using just mics, a battery box, and transformers into a recording device.  The AKG 300 series of mics also has interchangeable caps so you can add the ck93 hypercardioid caps later if you would like.  The ADK 51tl mics also sound excellent and can be had for a price within your budget.

[VA_TAPER]

an unconventional suggestion but it has worked good for me...

the direct to reverb sound ratio that far back in the shed is jacked.  No inexpensive hyper has a decently good off-axis response leading to strange hollow recordings.  Get a crazy high stand APIC 20ft or something and run omnis from the front of the lawn taping off the delay stacks.  In my experience that will come out very nice sounding if you can get your mics above the level of the main stacks to avoid comb filtering.  Almost as good as being up front, just without the need to run bass roll off.


my $.02,
peace, chris

p.s. - when I get home I can upload a clip of a P+F show taped this way with 4060s it is great.