Topic: DPA 4060 clipping?

[BC]

Just wondering if anyone has ever had trouble with clipping their 4060's. I wouldn't think so given their spl rating of 134 dB but just wondering.

Peace,
Ben

[Gutbucket]

Mine got really thick and bass heavy at Langerado, which was very loud.. and very bass heavy, IMO. They didn't clip outright but 4061's would have been better for that volume and probably would have sounded better, having additional head room.

I imagine that if close micing instuments 4061's would be a better choice for those high SPL's.  I have 4060's & love 'em, haven't run the 4061's so I only speak from spec's & hearsay on those.  Choice depends on what type of music you record most of the time, choose the 4061's If you mostly record stuff where more than a few people are wearing earplugs.

[edit] Short answer is no, I haven't had them clip outright, but they didn't sound so magical when pushed to high in SPL.

[divamum]

I'll tell you this, though:  last week when I used them for the first time with NO chance to test levels -a nd in a very less-than-optimum room setup - I was amazed that even when they DID clip you still get "real sounds". Unlike my CMC8s which, when they clip, are just a big ole buzz, the DPAs still have some actual music underneath the distortion.

It is, of course, still distortion, but they even seem to do that more elegantly than a lot of other mini-mics

[poorlyconditioned]

I'll tell you this, though:  last week when I used them for the first time with NO chance to test levels -a nd in a very less-than-optimum room setup - I was amazed that even when they DID clip you still get "real sounds". Unlike my CMC8s which, when they clip, are just a big ole buzz, the DPAs still have some actual music underneath the distortion.

It is, of course, still distortion, but they even seem to do that more elegantly than a lot of other mini-mics

The question is was it the mics or the recorder that clipped.  I would be surpised if it was the mics, but it is not unheard of...

  Richard

[divamum]

Hmm. Good point. That said, I had the gain WAY too high for the situation (new-gear learning curve - I guessed and got it wrong) plus it was a honkin' bigass orchestra in a WAYYYYY too small space with a weird-as-anything acoustic (cinder-block rehearsal rooms manage to be both dead and live simultaneously - it's very odd...)  I think any mics would have been taxed!!

[DSatz]

BC, I'm not a DPA user nor do I know how you are powering these microphones; if condenser microphones aren't correctly powered, they won't be able to handle their normal, rated maximum sound pressure levels.

But assuming that the 134 dB SPL limit you quoted is the actual limit, I can virtually guarantee you that you're not exceeding that if the microphones are in the same general space as human listeners. 134 dB is beyond any level that human listeners can stand to be near unless they're profoundly deaf (and if that isn't the case already, it will be soon at 134 dB SPL). You might get levels like that if you placed your microphones directly IN the bell of a trumpet or trombone--but maybe not even then.

Most often, if microphones with such high SPL capabilities are overloaded, it's either because of improper powering or because of wind or other strong moving air currents such as breath noise from a singer who's yelling. Overload doesn't happen nearly as often from sound energy as such. So one of the first things to try is a simple windscreen. If the distortion decreases noticeably or goes away, there's your problem.

The next thing to try like that is a resistive pad at the input of whatever piece of equipment the microphones are connected to. Preamp, mixer and recorder inputs have their own overload limits, and very loud sounds may cause high-output microphones to put out levels which exceed those limits. In a lot of equipment this limitation has little or nothing to do with whatever the meters or LEDs are telling you about the signal levels, because usually those meters or indicators are responding to the levels at the output of the equipment, while overload may be occurring at the input. If so, the rest of the equipment can't do much except to faithfully amplify that distortion. So even if you're watching the record levels and keeping everything well below 0 dB, you can still have a super-hi-fi recording of a lot of distortion.

--best regards

[Church-Audio]

BC, I'm not a DPA user nor do I know how you are powering these microphones; if condenser microphones aren't correctly powered, they won't be able to handle their normal, rated maximum sound pressure levels.

But assuming that the 134 dB SPL limit you quoted is the actual limit, I can virtually guarantee you that you're not exceeding that if the microphones are in the same general space as human listeners. 134 dB is beyond any level that human listeners can stand to be near unless they're profoundly deaf (and if that isn't the case already, it will be soon at 134 dB SPL). You might get levels like that if you placed your microphones directly IN the bell of a trumpet or trombone--but maybe not even then.

Most often, if microphones with such high SPL capabilities are overloaded, it's either because of improper powering or because of wind or other strong moving air currents such as breath noise from a singer who's yelling. Overload doesn't happen nearly as often from sound energy as such. So one of the first things to try is a simple windscreen. If the distortion decreases noticeably or goes away, there's your problem.

The next thing to try like that is a resistive pad at the input of whatever piece of equipment the microphones are connected to. Preamp, mixer and recorder inputs have their own overload limits, and very loud sounds may cause high-output microphones to put out levels which exceed those limits. In a lot of equipment this limitation has little or nothing to do with whatever the meters or LEDs are telling you about the signal levels, because usually those meters or indicators are responding to the levels at the output of the equipment, while overload may be occurring at the input. If so, the rest of the equipment can't do much except to faithfully amplify that distortion. So even if you're watching the record levels and keeping everything well below 0 dB, you can still have a super-hi-fi recording of a lot of distortion.

--best regards

Well people used to say that about AT 853 mics I have measured the distortion of them at 114 db and found them to be at 10% THD or more when wired 2 wire. I think in order to say that one mic can not distort you have to know if the max spl of a mic is broadband or at 1k.. If its at 1k it can easily distort at lower frequencies much more earlier then 134 db for example.. The other factors are how is the mic being loaded down? I have found power to not be a huge factor. For example AT 853 Mics at 5 volts were only about .05% lower distortion then the same mic at 10 volts bias power. But termination can determine if a mic distorts earlier then claimed in the spec sheet.

[DSatz]

Church-Audio, of course you're right--some people in this forum run some rather unorthodox arrangements, and I gather that you're in a good position to know a lot about them! What someone here calls their "microphone" may actually be a "boughten" capsule with a homebrew impedance converter attached, and such arrangements may have special requirements.

By all means, if a microphone's impedance converter is saddled with too low a load impedance, that will limit its maximum undistorted SPL. But do you see any particular clue that that's an issue in this case?

--best regards

[Church-Audio]

Church-Audio, of course you're right--some people in this forum run some rather unorthodox arrangements, and I gather that you're in a good position to know a lot about them! What someone here calls their "microphone" may actually be a "boughten" capsule with a homebrew impedance converter attached, and such arrangements may have special requirements.

By all means, if a microphone's impedance converter is saddled with too low a load impedance, that will limit its maximum undistorted SPL. But do you see any particular clue that that's an issue in this case?

--best regards

Not in this case.. But it might be that DPA is only doing there distortion test at 1k.. and not broad spectrum if that's the case then distortion could be happening at a lower frequency. If that's the case then the spec of 135 db goes out the window. Its a tricky business distortion measurements for microphones.. Very few companies can measure distortion at more then one frequency because finding a test transducer with good distortion characteristics at a broad range of frequencies is very difficult to say the least. Of course if anyone had access to that technology it would be DPA.. But again no one really states how they do there distortion tests so we are left guessing what the real bottom line is. The other huge factor is how was the mic terminated for the test.. Did they use there own interface circuit? did they use a 9 volt battery and a 10k resistor with a simple dc cap? who knows. But one thing is for sure its very hard to duplicate the signal path of a test if no one ever publishes it so again we are left guessing when there is distortion present where did it come from the mic? or the preamp?


Chris

[poorlyconditioned]

Church-Audio, of course you're right--some people in this forum run some rather unorthodox arrangements, and I gather that you're in a good position to know a lot about them! What someone here calls their "microphone" may actually be a "boughten" capsule with a homebrew impedance converter attached, and such arrangements may have special requirements.

By all means, if a microphone's impedance converter is saddled with too low a load impedance, that will limit its maximum undistorted SPL. But do you see any particular clue that that's an issue in this case?

--best regards

Not in this case.. But it might be that DPA is only doing there distortion test at 1k.. and not broad spectrum if that's the case then distortion could be happening at a lower frequency. If that's the case then the spec of 135 db goes out the window. Its a tricky business distortion measurements for microphones.. Very few companies can measure distortion at more then one frequency because finding a test transducer with good distortion characteristics at a broad range of frequencies is very difficult to say the least. Of course if anyone had access to that technology it would be DPA.. But again no one really states how they do there distortion tests so we are left guessing what the real bottom line is. The other huge factor is how was the mic terminated for the test.. Did they use there own interface circuit? did they use a 9 volt battery and a 10k resistor with a simple dc cap? who knows. But one thing is for sure its very hard to duplicate the signal path of a test if no one ever publishes it so again we are left guessing when there is distortion present where did it come from the mic? or the preamp?


Chris

As far as I can tell, DPA (406x) mics are *not* just an electret with a resistor or something.  The element inside is powered correctly, and there is a transistor buffer right inside the mic. It will drive a regular (unbalanced) low impedance mic input.  I'm still guessing just overloading the input.

  Richard

[Gutbucket]

Mine got really thick and bass heavy at Langerado, which was very loud.. and very bass heavy, IMO. They didn't clip outright but 4061's would have been better for that volume and probably would have sounded better, having additional head room.

that's the nature of the beast with the 406x series; these little suckers will bring the bass in a big way.  if your 4060s weren't overloading then they were doing fine and ime the 4061s wouldn't of done "better" in that situation.  the reason i sold my 61s and moved to the 60s is b/c i was unhappy with the self noise of the 61s which was apparent when recording quieter acts.

Thanks for you input, raoulduke. Not having used both sensitivities, I was wondering if I was getting out on a limb there.  I went back to take a look at the waveforms at the loudest portions of those shows and there was certainly no evidence of the 4060's clipping.  It appears they recorded all of that very heavy, exaggerated bass rather accurately.   I chose the 4060's for the lower self noise as well and have been quite pleased with the low noise floor for quiet acts and non-music recording.  Not having used the 4061's personally I don't really know how much quieter the 4060's are in actual use (I can look-up the spec of course).  Do you find them quiet enough for you?  Was the difference between 4061 & 4060 pretty significant?

[BC]

i've previously owned 4061s and currently own 4060s and haven't experienced distortion running either 406x > mma6000 or 406x > diy 9v battery box.  however with that said, i'm not running them at super loud shows, just rock n roll gigs (mule, ratdog, electric jazz, bluegrass, etc). 

Thanks Tim, that's good to know. Mule is about as loud as I would be taking these babies, I have mostly classical/jazz/acoustic in mind if I pull the trigger on some mini DPA's, and maybe some 4 mic mixes with the 4022's at open taping shows. Damn that 744 is pricey!

[grider]

i've previously owned 4061s and currently own 4060s and haven't experienced distortion running either 406x > mma6000 or 406x > diy 9v battery box.  however with that said, i'm not running them at super loud shows, just rock n roll gigs (mule, ratdog, electric jazz, bluegrass, etc). 

Thanks Tim, that's good to know. Mule is about as loud as I would be taking these babies, I have mostly classical/jazz/acoustic in mind if I pull the trigger on some mini DPA's, and maybe some 4 mic mixes with the 4022's at open taping shows. Damn that 744 is pricey!

Ben I can send you a recording of music somewhere in between rock and classical/folk, its a Herbie Hancock jazz set recorded outdoors with 4061>mma6000, it might give you an idea of how the 4061's sound with that music, pm me if you want a copy

[BC]

...if I pull the trigger on some mini DPA's, and maybe some 4 mic mixes with the 4022's at open taping shows. Damn that 744 is pricey!

keep your v3>mt rig and buy an oade acm hdp2 for $1200+media.  sync the p2 to the v3 and your 4 channel rig is done .  it'll sound better and cost less than a 744.  plus you'd have four channels phantom, instead of the two the 744 offers.  you lose build quality when comparing the tascam to the sound devices, as well as the hard drive/compact flash storage differential.  something to think about at least if you're debating about going to 4 channels and you already have the v3.

hmm, good idea, I'll have to keep in mind the idea of using the WC out of the V3 for a lower-cost 4 channel setup. +