Topic: PCM-M10 Achilles heels

[earmonger]

I got my PCM-M10 in December 2009 and I  have been using it 3-4 times a week for shows ever since. I'm lucky that way

This week I have started having trouble with the on-off switch. It takes 4 or 5 tries to get it to turn on or turn off (of course it can be turned off by removing the batteries).

The other thing that suffered from wear and tear was the remote, which I had to replace a few months ago. That does get a lot of action, because it goes in and out of a flap on a camera case and sometimes dangles and swings, even gets tugged,  if I don't tuck it in well enough.

Anyway, I have procured a replacement and bear the older one no grudge. That one is still good to go, though I don't know when the switch is going to completely stop functioning.  And with three years of very steady use, that's about $75 a year. Compare that to your smartphone bill...

[cashandkerouac]

so far no problem with my M10, which is now 2 years old.  i've got back-up provisions in case something goes bad, but the M10 has been a real workhorse. 

[F.O.Bean]

I would suggest to NOT USE THE REMOTE. Even tho the m10 is LOCKED, the stop button still works on the remote. That could really make someone sour after the check their m10 and find out that it accidentally got "stopped"

But to each his own! I personally wouldnt risk it

[anr]

I've recently noticed the same general problem.  The nature of the sliding on/off switch means the slightest bit of dust or gunge can make it sticky.  I've just squirted some switch cleaner in it and it's back to 100%. 

[bluewingolive]

I never use the on/off switch.....It just goes to sleep after 10min....

[tgos3]

When I use my remote along with pre-roll, there is an audible click at the beginning of the recording.  The click is not present using preroll without the remote.  I assume this is an inherent problem, since I have had no other probs with my unit.
I hardly ever turn mine off, since the batteries last so long.  I just put in a new set of Eneloops once in a while.  I turn it off to remove the flashcard for modification of the file structure and to add or delete files using a card reader, or when hooking up USB access.   It's probably a good idea to turn it off before plugging in or unplugging an externally powered mike or a powered up external preamp.

TG

[earmonger]

I've just squirted some switch cleaner in it and it's back to 100%.

Dunno if it's sticky so much as unresponsive, but this sounds like it's worth a try. There are a lot of  contact cleaners out there, though, and I'm reluctant to just squirt something unknown on the PCM-M10. Is there a brand (or active ingredient) that you recommend?

[F.O.Bean]

When I use my remote along with pre-roll, there is an audible click at the beginning of the recording.  The click is not present using preroll without the remote.  I assume this is an inherent problem, since I have had no other probs with my unit.
I hardly ever turn mine off, since the batteries last so long.  I just put in a new set of Eneloops once in a while.  I turn it off to remove the flashcard for modification of the file structure and to add or delete files using a card reader, or when hooking up USB access.   It's probably a good idea to turn it off before plugging in or unplugging an externally powered mike or a powered up external preamp.

TG

I would recommend formatting your microsdhc card rather than just deleting it. Also, its a good idea to format the card on the m10, not the PC, UNLESS youre formatting a 64gb card

[anr]

I've just squirted some switch cleaner in it and it's back to 100%.

Dunno if it's sticky so much as unresponsive, but this sounds like it's worth a try. There are a lot of  contact cleaners out there, though, and I'm reluctant to just squirt something unknown on the PCM-M10. Is there a brand (or active ingredient) that you recommend?

Extremely sorry, but the brand I use is intended for aircraft avionics and is not commercially available.  But it is made by Electrolube Ltd, so I think that would be a good place to start as they probably sell a commercial variant.   (We simply call it "Electrolube" - the real name is meaningless letters and numbers).    You should NOT use an organic substance as it will clog. 

[earmonger]

  But it is made by Electrolube Ltd, so I think that would be a good place to start as they probably sell a commercial variant.

Does this look right?

http://www.electrolube.com/docs/lubricantmain.asp?id=71

And actually, that seems to be UK-only...$51 on ebay here! I looked at the spec sheet, maybe I can find similar ingredients in something here in the USA.

[anr]

That's it.   Price is VERY steep, and that can would last a lifetime.  I've had my can for about 30 years!  They used to do a small bottle similar to eye-droppers.  It had a very narrow gauge pull-out tube to access tight spots.     Yes, I'm in the UK. 

[gmarinov]

This week I have started having trouble with the on-off switch. It takes 4 or 5 tries to get it to turn on or turn off (of course it can be turned off by removing the batteries).

Since this thing has phenomenal battery life and you're using it frequently, I would suggest simply moving the on/off switch to Lock position instead of shutting the unit down. It's a workaround but for equipment this tiny you may find a spec of dust in the wrong place would give you more grief than you expect..

[dyneq]

Dunno if it's sticky so much as unresponsive, but this sounds like it's worth a try. There are a lot of  contact cleaners out there, though, and I'm reluctant to just squirt something unknown on the PCM-M10. Is there a brand (or active ingredient) that you recommend?

I've had great luck with the Caig DeoxIT stuff which is made in the USA. Here's a product sheet describing all their products. I bought a bottle of the stuff like 10 years ago and I still have 80% of it left even though I use it frequently on jacks, plugs, pots, etc.

For a switch, it might be safest to open the case up and apply the solution from the back of the switch before working the switch up and down.

[earmonger]

Which specific product are you using?

[dyneq]

I have the DeoxIT D100L Connector & Contact Treatment, which 'cleans, deoxidizes, seals & protects electrical connections'. It says, 'Use on: switches, relays, plugs, sockets, connectors, batteries, IC pins & sockets, terminals, probes, etc. Here's their product selection guide:

http://store.caig.com/s.nl/it.I/id.66/.f

[tbger]

I've been using the M10 intensively for about 2 years, used to lecture recording on a nearly daily basis.  Two things I'd like to tell you regarding the care of this unit based on my experience:

The switches do have a cheap feeling, so just avoid using them.  The M10's battery life is excellent -- I switch batteries every few weeks having it always on, recording hours of lectures every week.

I also use the remote daily.  Once plug is properly connected, you shouldn't be disconnecting it from the device whatsoever.  Simply put it in a tough case that leaves enough space for the remote's plug.  I do the same with the USB cable - I have a retractable one always connected with a cover on its other edge unless I'm using it.

As mentioned above there's always the risk of the remote 'bypassing' the lock switch allowing recording to be stopped.  But that's why you have the red indicator on it - it turns off when recording stops (and is always on when device is recording).  When used on a daily basis I prefer to use the remote's buttons other than daily pressing the buttons on the device itself.

Overall I think its important to have this recorder always stored in a closed case to minimize wear on the switches (and inputs).

By the way where did you get your remote replacement ?

[F.O.Bean]

My m10s live in lowepro cases when not being used!!!

[udovdh]

The battery door is also an Achilles heel.
The hinges are quite weak and need gentle handling.
Sony does NOT sell spare battery doors.

[adrianf74]

The two biggest issues I've encountered have already been mentioned:

1/ The switches are pretty craptastic (especially the Power / Lock one); the spring on that switch died the first or second time I used my M10 so I've had to be extra careful when taking it out of LOCK mode if I'm still recording.

2/ The battery door is very finicky.  I don't know why Sony put hinges on it that are so "weak."

Luckily, I've never had issues with the clock.

[udovdh]

W.r.t. the M10 battery door:

Can anybody here 3D-print a (better!) replacement door, please?

[earmonger]

By the way where did you get your remote replacement ?

A fellow TS member who wasn't planning to use his remote sold me mine, but Sony also sells them. Who knows, though, you might ask in the Yard Sale since there is a faction that won't use the remote with the PCM-M10.

I carried on using my first PCM-M10 for a while, either leaving it on or turning it on by connecting the USB to the computer (that works too). But now the remote jack seems to have given up, so I'm on to PCM-M10 no. 2.

The battery door does seem pretty fragile,  but in a lot of steady use, mine never broke.

It was figured out a while back that the clock issue is really not an issue. You just have to leave the unit on or sleeping long enough to recharge its little internal battery to hold the settings. If you take the batteries out and leave it off, then yes, you'll have to reset the clock.

[tbger]

Thanks for the info on the remote.

I'd say keep it always connected and keep the recorder inside some sturdy yet comfortable case.  I use a "Lowepro Navi 5.0", it fits perfectly with right-angled plugs on the top (for mic / line), remote and a USB cable connected all together.  It's best to not connect and disconnect things on these device regularly as its input sockets are clearly not of the best quality.  Same with the switches and I suppose main buttons as well, unfortunately.

[jagraham]

I would suggest to NOT USE THE REMOTE. Even tho the m10 is LOCKED, the stop button still works on the remote. That could really make someone sour after the check their m10 and find out that it accidentally got "stopped"

But to each his own! I personally wouldnt risk it

^ This is the same on the DR-2d. Others reported using the remote with success but I just don't see why I would ever need to risk it.

[Gutbucket]

I would suggest to NOT USE THE REMOTE. Even tho the m10 is LOCKED, the stop button still works on the remote. That could really make someone sour after the check their m10 and find out that it accidentally got "stopped"

But to each his own! I personally wouldnt risk it

^ This is the same on the DR-2d. Others reported using the remote with success but I just don't see why I would ever need to risk it.

The DR2d remote is infared not wired.  That's the key difference that makes using the remote both safe and more convenient.  It only functions if it has a clear and direct line of sight to the recorder.  Stashing either the remote or the recorder is equivalent to locking out the remote so that it will not stop the recording even if you push the stop button.   I find the safest way to run the DR2d to avoid accidental button presses is to turn on the recorder and imediately lock it, then only use the remote.  Even when open recording.

[OMA]

I just bought a Sony PCM-M10, and I'm disappointed to read it doesn't last more than a few years.

I have a Sharp MT-88 MiniDisc recorder bought back in 2002 (already second hand, mind you!), and I've been using it throughout all these years to tape hundreds of shows without any problem at all. 11 years!

I bought the M10 because I was tired of having to re-record all my shows into the PC using analogue connection, which led to me slacking in transferring all my MDs to PC, and I ended always looking for empty minidiscs for the next show, and sometimes having to transfer them at the last moment (which as you know takes several hours, which is a pain).

So this new Sony recorder seems to be good, but without anything near the same build quality as the old MD recorders. If anything, these new recorders should last MORE, since they have no moving parts, no motor, no lens... A lot less things can go wrong! But it seems it's much more cheaply made than the old MD units, which leads to stupid failures such as switch and connector problems.

[earmonger]

I just bought a Sony PCM-M10, and I'm disappointed to read it doesn't last more than a few years.

You needn't have such low expectations.

I got my first PCM-M10 late in 2009 and it was battle-ready until 2013. Except for the remote jack, it would still be going strong--it'll still record anything, just has to be controlled on the unit.

I record about 100 shows per year, punctuated by some marathon weekend-long fests, so the unit and particularly the remote get jostled a lot. If you've kept an MD going that long--which has a lot of intricate mechanical moving parts--your PCM-M10 will probably last just as long.

Hold it in your hand, the thing is like a brick. I never had any trouble with switches, the battery door, or other vulnerabilities different users have cited.  Everybody puts different stresses on their toys.

And the sound you'll get, and the uploading convenience, are so vastly superior to MD that you will be kicking yourself that you didn't get it sooner.

Meanwhile, if you want to buy some blank minidiscs, like dozens or hundreds, please PM me. 

[OMA]

Thanks for your reassuring answer

I don't record nearly as much shows a year, maybe less than half. Well, I'll try to be careful with it anyway, so hopefully it will last a few more years

And the sound you'll get, and the uploading convenience, are so vastly superior to MD that you will be kicking yourself that you didn't get it sooner.

Well, the uploading convenience is there, but the sound, though I suppose it's superior, since it's uncompressed linear PCM, instead of ATRAC, and the preamp is supposed to be good, I still haven't been able to experience it. I recorded a folk jam session a few days ago just to test it out, and the recording resulted with slight clipping. I used manual recording, low sensitivity, no limiter nor low-cut, and the level dial on 5, using built in mics. I suppose I should have used a lower setting, but this was a small group of people playing acoustic instruments in a pub, not a loud rock concert! I'll try on 2.5 next time.

I remember that with my Sharp MT-88 (+ Sony ECM-DS70P mic) I could record just about anything without caring about settings, be it folk or heavy metal. It could even record with no problem some inhumanly loud concert a few years back

Meanwhile, if you want to buy some blank minidiscs, like dozens or hundreds, please PM me.

Minidiscs? Where we're going we don't need minidiscs! (hopefully)

[F.O.Bean]

I've had great success with the m10 so far. I've had my black one since 2011 and my red one since 2012 and they are rock solid still! I never use the remote, and even tho I record a LOT of shows with them, I baby my gear. Just take good care of it and it will last a long time

[DSatz]

The one possibly adverse thing that I've found about the M10 is that its 24-bit recording mode doesn't seem to offer any wider dynamic range than its 16-bit mode, or at most just a dB or two. Somewhere in another thread I posted spectrum analyzer photos of the unit in both settings, using the line inputs, with the recording level knobs set to low-ish settings.

If anyone here has determined any differently, I would certainly like to know about it (different settings or approaches might yield different results for all I know), but otherwise, it seems to me that we could all spare ourselves 1/3 of the storage-space hassles and just use the recorder in its 16-bit mode.

--best regards

[rastasean]

The one possibly adverse thing that I've found about the M10 is that its 24-bit recording mode doesn't seem to offer any wider dynamic range than its 16-bit mode, or at most just a dB or two. Somewhere in another thread I posted spectrum analyzer photos of the unit in both settings, using the line inputs, with the recording level knobs set to low-ish settings.

If anyone here has determined any differently, I would certainly like to know about it (different settings or approaches might yield different results for all I know), but otherwise, it seems to me that we could all spare ourselves 1/3 of the storage-space hassles and just use the recorder in its 16-bit mode.

--best regards

I remember reading this as well. What exactly do you think the 24 bit mode does, then?

[earmonger]

I recorded a folk jam session a few days ago just to test it out, and the recording resulted with slight clipping. I used manual recording, low sensitivity, no limiter nor low-cut, and the level dial on 5, using built in mics. I suppose I should have used a lower setting, but this was a small group of people playing acoustic instruments in a pub, not a loud rock concert! I'll try on 2.5 next time.

I remember that with my Sharp MT-88 (+ Sony ECM-DS70P mic) I could record just about anything without caring about settings, be it folk or heavy metal. It could even record with no problem some inhumanly loud concert a few years back

I would suggest using the limiter. That's different from auto level control--it will only kick in if you're about to overload. It's like an airbag, there for emergencies.  Other people will say oh no no, but I just have to disagree. It will do no harm whatsoever and could save you.

Meanwhile, when recording, if you can see the recorder you should see green lights for optimum levels and red if you're overloading. You can even see them if  you have the recorder stashed in a pouch at your waist--glance down and adjust the volume accordingly. I like mine to be where the green light is blinking occasionally,  so the green-light range is at the peak of the music's volume.

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare the built-ins with the DSP-70. The DSP-70 is a very, VERY low-sensitivity mic with a built-in low-cut--the lower end of its frequency response is 100 Hz. The built-ins also taper off the bass but not that much, and they are probably more sensitive. You could always just plug the DSP-70 into Mic-In and see what you get. Or...sorry about your wallet...upgrade your mics and get a battery box...

[F.O.Bean]

I recorded a folk jam session a few days ago just to test it out, and the recording resulted with slight clipping. I used manual recording, low sensitivity, no limiter nor low-cut, and the level dial on 5, using built in mics. I suppose I should have used a lower setting, but this was a small group of people playing acoustic instruments in a pub, not a loud rock concert! I'll try on 2.5 next time.

I remember that with my Sharp MT-88 (+ Sony ECM-DS70P mic) I could record just about anything without caring about settings, be it folk or heavy metal. It could even record with no problem some inhumanly loud concert a few years back

I would suggest using the limiter. That's different from auto level control--it will only kick in if you're about to overload. It's like an airbag, there for emergencies.  Other people will say oh no no, but I just have to disagree. It will do no harm whatsoever and could save you.

Meanwhile, when recording, if you can see the recorder you should see green lights for optimum levels and red if you're overloading. You can even see them if  you have the recorder stashed in a pouch at your waist--glance down and adjust the volume accordingly. I like mine to be where the green light is blinking occasionally,  so the green-light range is at the peak of the music's volume.

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare the built-ins with the DSP-70. The DSP-70 is a very, VERY low-sensitivity mic with a built-in low-cut--the lower end of its frequency response is 100 Hz. The built-ins also taper off the bass but not that much, and they are probably more sensitive. You could always just plug the DSP-70 into Mic-In and see what you get. Or...sorry about your wallet...upgrade your mics and get a battery box...

I agree it could save your ass, but with 24bit recording, why not just run lower levels

[fguidry]

The one possibly adverse thing that I've found about the M10 is that its 24-bit recording mode doesn't seem to offer any wider dynamic range than its 16-bit mode, or at most just a dB or two. Somewhere in another thread I posted spectrum analyzer photos of the unit in both settings, using the line inputs, with the recording level knobs set to low-ish settings.

If anyone here has determined any differently, I would certainly like to know about it (different settings or approaches might yield different results for all I know), but otherwise, it seems to me that we could all spare ourselves 1/3 of the storage-space hassles and just use the recorder in its 16-bit mode.

--best regards

I remember reading this as well. What exactly do you think the 24 bit mode does, then?

Do you understand what 24 bit recording does? Folks talk about "resolution" and "headroom" but the real difference is the level of quantization noise - the noise that is generated as part of the sampling process. Quantization noise in 16 bit is at -96 dB, theoretically in 24 bit about -144 dB but since thermal noise is around -120 dB that is the real bottom limit which computes to about 20 bits.

So in the case of the M10 or other recorder that offers 24 bit recording but generates self-noise above -96 dB, the extra bits simply takes up room to contain noise. This is a common situation with inexpensive portable recorders.

I invite you to consider those cases where ambient noise is way above -96 dB, which is almost certainly the case for all live taping situations.

Fran

[voltronic]

The one possibly adverse thing that I've found about the M10 is that its 24-bit recording mode doesn't seem to offer any wider dynamic range than its 16-bit mode, or at most just a dB or two. Somewhere in another thread I posted spectrum analyzer photos of the unit in both settings, using the line inputs, with the recording level knobs set to low-ish settings.

If anyone here has determined any differently, I would certainly like to know about it (different settings or approaches might yield different results for all I know), but otherwise, it seems to me that we could all spare ourselves 1/3 of the storage-space hassles and just use the recorder in its 16-bit mode.

--best regards

I remember reading this as well. What exactly do you think the 24 bit mode does, then?

Do you understand what 24 bit recording does? Folks talk about "resolution" and "headroom" but the real difference is the level of quantization noise - the noise that is generated as part of the sampling process. Quantization noise in 16 bit is at -96 dB, theoretically in 24 bit about -144 dB but since thermal noise is around -120 dB that is the real bottom limit which computes to about 20 bits.

So in the case of the M10 or other recorder that offers 24 bit recording but generates self-noise above -96 dB, the extra bits simply takes up room to contain noise. This is a common situation with inexpensive portable recorders.

I invite you to consider those cases where ambient noise is way above -96 dB, which is almost certainly the case for all live taping situations.

Fran

Good point about the ambient noise in live taping.  I think it's worth mentioning that the M10 does measure better than other recorders though.  Guysonic's measurements seem to show that the M10's self-noise is around -120 dB for MIC IN through most of its range: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123

DSatz, I'd be very interested to see the spectrum plots you did to compare...

[OMA]

I would suggest using the limiter. That's different from auto level control--it will only kick in if you're about to overload. It's like an airbag, there for emergencies.  Other people will say oh no no, but I just have to disagree. It will do no harm whatsoever and could save you.

Won't I get noticeable volume drop downs when an incidental loud noise kicks in? (maybe even some clapping from the audience).

Meanwhile, when recording, if you can see the recorder you should see green lights for optimum levels and red if you're overloading. You can even see them if  you have the recorder stashed in a pouch at your waist--glance down and adjust the volume accordingly. I like mine to be where the green light is blinking occasionally,  so the green-light range is at the peak of the music's volume.

Well, I like to forget about my recorder after I've started "rolling the tape", be it because I might be playing in a session myself or just because I want to enjoy a concert I'm attending without being concerned about levels and whatnot. That I could do with my old Sharp MD. I always put it in recording level L9 out of 30 (if you ever had one, you might remember it had L and H in addition to the number), and recordings always came up sounding quite good, with no distortions at all.

You're comparing apples and oranges to compare the built-ins with the DSP-70. The DSP-70 is a very, VERY low-sensitivity mic with a built-in low-cut--the lower end of its frequency response is 100 Hz. The built-ins also taper off the bass but not that much, and they are probably more sensitive.

I suppose you mean DS70P. Well, yes, I understand they're different mics. I just wanted to test the internal mics for my first recording, but was surprised that I could get clipping with something that was just moderately loud.

I know that the DS70P doesn't go all the way down to 20 Hz, but I've read that might be a good thing for concerts, as you don't overload the input with excessive bass, is that true?

You could always just plug the DSP-70 into Mic-In and see what you get.

Well, yes, that will be my next test, mostly because the DS70P is the only mic I have . And it also passed the test of time. I've been using it since the beginning of the year 2000. So 13 years and a half already! . Another great Sony product

Or...sorry about your wallet...upgrade your mics and get a battery box...

I've sometimes considered that option, but I don't like having to carry yet another device (battery box) and with so many mic options, I'm not sure what to choose.

So in the case of the M10 or other recorder that offers 24 bit recording but generates self-noise above -96 dB, the extra bits simply takes up room to contain noise. This is a common situation with inexpensive portable recorders.

So you mean there's not any benefit in recording in 24 bit with the M10 and we should record at 16 bit instead?

[Ozpeter]

Use 24 bits only to avoid digital clipping.  You won't hear any other benefit.  In practical use, this is the case for ALL 24 bit recorders, regardless of cost and type.

[OMA]

Use 24 bits only to avoid digital clipping.  You won't hear any other benefit.  In practical use, this is the case for ALL 24 bit recorders, regardless of cost and type.

Well, yes, avoiding clipping is the only reason I'd use 24 bits, since I know that for an ambient recording no one will notice any quality difference between 16 and 24 bits.

But, since DSatz said that 24 bits didn't help with clipping either... Check his quoted message below:

The one possibly adverse thing that I've found about the M10 is that its 24-bit recording mode doesn't seem to offer any wider dynamic range than its 16-bit mode, or at most just a dB or two. Somewhere in another thread I posted spectrum analyzer photos of the unit in both settings, using the line inputs, with the recording level knobs set to low-ish settings.

If anyone here has determined any differently, I would certainly like to know about it (different settings or approaches might yield different results for all I know), but otherwise, it seems to me that we could all spare ourselves 1/3 of the storage-space hassles and just use the recorder in its 16-bit mode.

--best regards

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Far too much speculation and armchair talk.  Far too little actual testing of what sounds best.

[Gutbucket]

I agree it could save your ass, but with 24bit recording, why not just run lower levels

Because if you set the signal level too low it can encroach on, or slip below the recorder’s noise floor in the quiet parts.  If the analog input portion of the recorder is only capable of 17 maybe 18 bits of actual bandwidth between the recorder’s noise floor and full scale digital at the analog to digital converter, then setting it to record 24 bit files will at best provide the capability to capture one or two bits more dynamic range than setting it to record 16bit files.  The remaining bits at the ‘bottom’ of the 24 bit file are simply random numbers corresponding to noise.

Each additional bit provides approximately 6dB of additional dynamic range, so one or two bits more is significant.  That’s worth the additional file size to me just for peace of mind. Probably the best we could hope for in a machine of this type with excellent specs would be a real range of 20bits anyway (4 additional bits over 16), you’ll never going to see all 8 bits additional bits of usable signal switching to 24 bit files from 16 bit files.  The bottom bits will always be noise.  17 or 18 bits is plenty for my purposes anyway.

Do you understand what 24 bit recording does? Folks talk about "resolution" and "headroom" but the real difference is the level of quantization noise - the noise that is generated as part of the sampling process. Quantization noise in 16 bit is at -96 dB, theoretically in 24 bit about -144 dB but since thermal noise is around -120 dB that is the real bottom limit which computes to about 20 bits.

So in the case of the M10 or other recorder that offers 24 bit recording but generates self-noise above -96 dB, the extra bits simply takes up room to contain noise. This is a common situation with inexpensive portable recorders.

Yes, but quantization noise is completely taken care of by the analog to digital converter chip in the recorder which dithers the last bit of information, allowing sounds to degrade gracefully below the noise floor instead of degrading into quantization noise.  Assuming both the room's noise floor and the recording systems analog noise floor are lower than the dither level (which is a big assumption!) if you really crank it up on playback you can hear the dither hiss, but can still detect signals dropping lower in level below the hiss.  So in reality it’s the dither noise, not quantization noise that becomes the ultimate bottom limit of the usable dynamic range.  However, both the recording chain's analog noise floor and the recording environment’s noise floor may be higher than that.

I invite you to consider those cases where ambient noise is way above -96 dB, which is almost certainly the case for all live taping situations.

This is misleading.  It’s adjustable.  -96dB is the lower limit of a16bit file relative to 0dBFS, but that’s the range of the file not of the sound levels in the room.  That 96dB of usable range is adjustable up or down depending on the sensitivity of your microphones and how you set your input gains.  You can set things so that the noise floor of the room is either above or below the -96dB level of the file.

For instance, say your recorder is capable of recording 16 bit files and its analog portion is capable of passing that full 96dB of dynamic range, and let’s say you are recording a rock concert that has peaks up to115dB SPL.  You decide to leave 10dB of headroom in case it peaks louder than that at some point, so you set your input gain so that 0dBFS on the recorder = a 125dB SPL peak in room.  96dB below that, the dither noise in the recorded file then corresponds with an analog input of 29dB.  That’s probably far lower than the noise floor of the room. 

But if you set things so that 0dBFS = 150dB SPL, then your file’s noise floor would be at 54dB which might be higher than that of room.

[fguidry]

...

I invite you to consider those cases where ambient noise is way above -96 dB, which is almost certainly the case for all live taping situations.

This is misleading.  It’s adjustable.  -96dB is the lower limit of a16bit file relative to 0dBFS, but that’s the range of the file not of the sound levels in the room.  That 96dB of usable range is adjustable up or down depending on the sensitivity of your microphones and how you set your input gains.  You can set things so that the noise floor of the room is either above or below the -96dB level of the file.

For instance, say your recorder is capable of recording 16 bit files and its analog portion is capable of passing that full 96dB of dynamic range, and let’s say you are recording a rock concert that has peaks up to115dB SPL.  You decide to leave 10dB of headroom in case it peaks louder than that at some point, so you set your input gain so that 0dBFS on the recorder = a 125dB SPL peak in room.  96dB below that, the dither noise in the recorded file then corresponds with an analog input of 29dB.  That’s probably far lower than the noise floor of the room. 

But if you set things so that 0dBFS = 150dB SPL, then your file’s noise floor would be at 54dB which might be higher than that of room.

To my mind you've inverted my position. Let's take your example - 115 dB peak, 10 dB headroom, 96 dB dynamic range. Already the theoretical and practical noise floor of the recorder is well below the ambient noise and therefore "wasted." Switch to 24 bit, get actual 20 bit 120 dB dynamic range - your recording now has extra bits containing the ambient noise with no improvement in the quality of the recording.

Fran

[Church-Audio]

The one possibly adverse thing that I've found about the M10 is that its 24-bit recording mode doesn't seem to offer any wider dynamic range than its 16-bit mode, or at most just a dB or two. Somewhere in another thread I posted spectrum analyzer photos of the unit in both settings, using the line inputs, with the recording level knobs set to low-ish settings.

If anyone here has determined any differently, I would certainly like to know about it (different settings or approaches might yield different results for all I know), but otherwise, it seems to me that we could all spare ourselves 1/3 of the storage-space hassles and just use the recorder in its 16-bit mode.

--best regards

I remember reading this as well. What exactly do you think the 24 bit mode does, then?

Do you understand what 24 bit recording does? Folks talk about "resolution" and "headroom" but the real difference is the level of quantization noise - the noise that is generated as part of the sampling process. Quantization noise in 16 bit is at -96 dB, theoretically in 24 bit about -144 dB but since thermal noise is around -120 dB that is the real bottom limit which computes to about 20 bits.

So in the case of the M10 or other recorder that offers 24 bit recording but generates self-noise above -96 dB, the extra bits simply takes up room to contain noise. This is a common situation with inexpensive portable recorders.

I invite you to consider those cases where ambient noise is way above -96 dB, which is almost certainly the case for all live taping situations.

Fran

Good point about the ambient noise in live taping.  I think it's worth mentioning that the M10 does measure better than other recorders though.  Guysonic's measurements seem to show that the M10's self-noise is around -120 dB for MIC IN through most of its range: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124639.msg1722123#msg1722123

DSatz, I'd be very interested to see the spectrum plots you did to compare...

You can't look at spectral noise graphs without taking into consideration the average RMS level. Looking at the graph alone and saying the noise floor is -120 because the graph is at -120 is misleading.

Chris

[Gutbucket]

To my mind you've inverted my position. Let's take your example - 115 dB peak, 10 dB headroom, 96 dB dynamic range. Already the theoretical and practical noise floor of the recorder is well below the ambient noise and therefore "wasted." Switch to 24 bit, get actual 20 bit 120 dB dynamic range - your recording now has extra bits containing the ambient noise with no improvement in the quality of the recording.

Fran

Yes, if you switch bit rates and do not change your input signal gain, that is correct.

It's somewhat semantic, but the point I was trying to make is the -96dB point is variable depending on how you set things.  In the second example, those extra 4 extra bits would be useful, lowering the noise floor of the recorder to 30dB SPL which stands a good chance of being below the ambient noise floor.

I was mostly trying to clarify this for others reading the thread.  Appologies for any confusion!

[earmonger]

Won't I get noticeable volume drop downs when an incidental loud noise kicks in? (maybe even some clapping from the audience).

Good levels are obviously the best approach.  But I'd rather have a volume drop down than the distortion of clipping.

Well, I like to forget about my recorder after I've started "rolling the tape", be it because I might be playing in a session myself or just because I want to enjoy a concert I'm attending without being concerned about levels and whatnot. That I could do with my old Sharp MD. I always put it in recording level L9 out of 30 (if you ever had one, you might remember it had L and H in addition to the number), and recordings always came up sounding quite good, with no distortions at all.

You'll learn the set-it-and-forget-it levels on the PCM-M10, too. They'll just be different.

I suppose you mean DS70P. Well, yes, I understand they're different mics. I just wanted to test the internal mics for my first recording, but was surprised that I could get clipping with something that was just moderately loud.

I know that the DS70P doesn't go all the way down to 20 Hz, but I've read that might be a good thing for concerts, as you don't overload the input with excessive bass, is that true?

To me it's better to get an accurate recording--even with the bass-heavy mixes that are all too common at concerts now--than to have a one-size-fits-all filter applied to every recording. What saved your recordings with the DS70P (yes, sorry) was the combination of its low sensitivity, the Sharp's low sensitivity setting and the lack of bass, not just the bass cut-off. The internal mics are more sensitive than the DS70P because Sony probably intended them to be used for interviews and other relatively quiet sources.

I'd suggest you do a fairly low-volume test, with a home stereo, with the DS70P and then the internal mics recording the same source--matching, just by eyeballing, the incoming recording level. Then play them back and see how you like the sound quality.

Better inexpensive mics than the DS70P include the tiny Sound Professionals BMC-2 or, more expensively, the slightly larger Church Audio mics; either way, add a battery box.  (Church Audios often show up in the Yard Sale here.) If you try them, sorry to say, your old recordings may sound squashed or claustrophobic.

Battery boxes aren't big: 9V ones are barely larger than the 9V battery, and Sound Professionals and Microphone Madness both make 12V versions that are even smaller.  The MM Classic Mini, really small, has  a lifetime warranty, but the batteries are expensive and I've had to get mine repeatedly repaired.

 I've had better luck, and the battery is cheaper, with the SPSB-10 with short detachable cables.

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-10

I use a belt pouch, LowePro Ridge 30, that holds the PCM-M10, battery box and remote quite neatly.

[Ozpeter]

What is almost never mentioned when dynamic range of recorders is discussed is that even using a cheap 16 bit recorder with modest mics, it's not practically possible to reproduce the dynamic range available, in a normal domestic environment. 

I don't know whether this sample is still online, but at https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByTVNpxnwA3DdHI0UGpkUEVCZW8/edit?usp=sharing there's a recording which to me makes the whole discussion one of theory rather than practice.

The first part is an excerpt from a binaural street recording I made recently (using Roland in-ears into a Sony SX750 - somewhat downmarket compared to the M10). It starts with me descending some car park steps, then you're in the street (with a street musician conveniently at the foot of the steps). At 1'09" traffic moves off as traffic lights turn green (including a Melbourne tram). At about 2' 15" I turn towards the musician and at about 2'26" you hear the chink of a coin I tossed in his hat. He was of course quite unaware he was being recorded but none the less he was entitled to his fee! In the original wave file the chink was actually the biggest peak.

Then at 2'47" I've spliced on some ambience recorded in a bedroom at home. The recording level was the same as for the street recording - in preparing the file I haven't messed with the levels at all, just converted to mp3. Right at the start of this quiet section you hear a bit of my tummy rumble (!!) and later you hear a phone ring elsewhere in the house. However, throughout this section you should be able to just hear a clock tick (every second) which, in this bedroom, is just about audible.

What's interesting to me about this sample is that if you set your playback level comfortably for the first part in the street, it's impossible to hear the clock tick in the second part in the bedroom, unless you turn up the playback volume somewhat. Or, having turned up the playback volume so you can just hear the clock tick, then play back the street section, you'll probably get complaints from the neighbours. At least that's how it seems to me.

So what practical benefit in terms of usable dynamic range you'd get from using a higher-end recorder and 24 bits escapes me.

Edit - at http://www.audiomastersforum.net/amforum/index.php/topic,8668.0.html there's a discussion along similar lines based on another such dynamic range sample I posted elsewhere.