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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: spaceman.project on March 22, 2016, 12:07:04 PM
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Hello all,
I've been recording pretty heavily for the last 4 years and have about 200 shows or so under my belt. All of these have been done with a stealth rig (Church or AT853 + UBB). I've been doing a lot more recordings in the open and want to expand my setup to something that has a bit more openness and warmth to it (now that I don't have to worry about sneaking around).
So, what is next? What should I consider?
I am still an Amateur when it comes to what options are available, but here are some of the thoughts:
- Need Mics + Pre + Cables
- Would like for it to be battery powered
- Would like to fit into small bag
- Versatality is a must. I record both indoors and outside, but most often am in smaller venues. Either small festivals or concert venues.
- Usually recording loud shows
- I prefer the sound of Cardioid, but am open to Omni with your suggestions
- Would like to keep the rig price under $600, but might open up if the right deal comes up.
- Using Sony PCM 10 and would like to continue to do so
Any thoughts? Threads I should read? Anyone have a rig they want to sell?
Thanks as always!
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Nakamichi CM300 or any of the various clones like TEAC ME-80. That's as simple a set up as you can get. Since you already have an m10, you just need to find the mics and the cables. The mics are no longer made but pairs show up on ebay all the time for between $200 and $300. Each mic is self-powered by an internal battery and sound great for that amount of money. Here's the best recording I made with my clone pair using a stereo XLR > 1/8 mini jack straight into the Line In jack on a Tascam DR2D.
https://archive.org/details/sts92012-06-29.me80_16bit
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Nakamichi CM300 or any of the various clones like TEAC ME-80. That's as simple a set up as you can get. Since you already have an m10, you just need to find the mics and the cables. The mics are no longer made but pairs show up on ebay all the time for between $200 and $300. Each mic is self-powered by an internal battery and sound great for that amount of money. Here's the best recording I made with my clone pair using a stereo XLR > 1/8 mini jack straight into the Line In jack on a Tascam DR2D.
https://archive.org/details/sts92012-06-29.me80_16bit
You can find PE-120s and ME-120s on ebay for way under 50 bucks a piece - pretty regularly...recently 2 sold for under 20 bucks each...
They do have a low output - and the stock cables are not balanced - should match nicely with the M10.
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Thank you both for the quick response! I will do some research.
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It may not be what you want to hear, but for that budget I'd strongly consider staying where you are. The mics suggested are maybe a little better than what you have, but they aren't a LOT better. If your goal is to move to a rig that really competes as an HQ open rig (but also is nice and compact) the real next budget option are AKG actives, which I think are going to push you past $600 all-in. Beyond that of course are Schoeps, DPAs, etc.
I went through the same thing in earlier years making lots of little incremental upgrades and all it caused me to do was lose money and spend a lot of time learning how to use gear that was only a little better than what I already had. If I were you, keep making great recordings with what you have, maybe invest in a nicer stand and mounts or whatever if you want a sturdier open rig, and save your coin for an AKG active rig, or at least Busman BSC2.
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I'm pretty biased being that I own these, but you should definitely check out the Line Audio mics. A single-man shop in Sweden that makes wide cardiods (CM3) and omnis (OM1). The CM3 are often difficult to distinguish against the Schoeps MK 21 in mic shootouts. Hit the Team Line Audio link in my signature for samples and full info.
If you still want to use the M10, hit eBay or the YS here for a used Sound Devices MixPre (AKA Shure FP24) for no more than $350. Or get a recorder that has phantom powered XLR inputs. Either way, that should put you right around your budget, and a huge leap forward in quality. I made that exact upgrade from Church mics. I have since gotten a set of DPAs, but the Line Audio mics continue to hold their own and I use them as much if not more often than my DPAs.
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^ That's not exactly an apples to apples comparison...
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I disagree w/some of the ideas above. Well, disagree is too strong. I just have different opinions.
I do like the line audio suggestion. those mics sound good, and the price is right.
I'd also check out the Berliner CM-33. Well within your budget leaving room for more stuff. For even less money....you
CANT GO WRONG w/the superlux s502 ORTF stereo mic. It sounds great, it's under $200 new..(ebay).
You could save a little more money and then get a nice preamp...or you could go real cheap and easy and just get a phantom power supply (to give
the mics the 48v they will require). some are battery powered, most are DC..so you can swing a battery pack to power it.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=phantom+power+supply&_osacat=180014&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xphantom+power+supply+battery+opperate.TRS1&_nkw=phantom+power+supply+battery+opperated&_sacat=180014
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It may not be what you want to hear, but for that budget I'd strongly consider staying where you are. The mics suggested are maybe a little better than what you have, but they aren't a LOT better. If your goal is to move to a rig that really competes as an HQ open rig (but also is nice and compact) the real next budget option are AKG actives, which I think are going to push you past $600 all-in. Beyond that of course are Schoeps, DPAs, etc.
I went through the same thing in earlier years making lots of little incremental upgrades and all it caused me to do was lose money and spend a lot of time learning how to use gear that was only a little better than what I already had. If I were you, keep making great recordings with what you have, maybe invest in a nicer stand and mounts or whatever if you want a sturdier open rig, and save your coin for an AKG active rig, or at least Busman BSC2.
Thanks, acidjack. You haven't steered me wrong in the past. I have been pretty happy with my recordings and have even had bands use them in releases/shared them. I should have included my expectations in the upgrade... If it is incremental change that, it might not be worth it.
I will look a bit more into the CM-33/s502/line audio mics. I still have a lot to learn here.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
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Or maybe some Busman BSC1's/BSC2's
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It may not be what you want to hear, but for that budget I'd strongly consider staying where you are. The mics suggested are maybe a little better than what you have, but they aren't a LOT better. If your goal is to move to a rig that really competes as an HQ open rig (but also is nice and compact) the real next budget option are AKG actives, which I think are going to push you past $600 all-in. Beyond that of course are Schoeps, DPAs, etc.
I went through the same thing in earlier years making lots of little incremental upgrades and all it caused me to do was lose money and spend a lot of time learning how to use gear that was only a little better than what I already had. If I were you, keep making great recordings with what you have, maybe invest in a nicer stand and mounts or whatever if you want a sturdier open rig, and save your coin for an AKG active rig, or at least Busman BSC2.
Thanks, acidjack. You haven't steered me wrong in the past. I have been pretty happy with my recordings and have even had bands use them in releases/shared them. I should have included my expectations in the upgrade... If it is incremental change that, it might not be worth it.
I will look a bit more into the CM-33/s502/line audio mics. I still have a lot to learn here.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
FWIW if you're talking about mics that are a real bargain, I've owned those Berliners and I do think they sound good. They have a pretty colored sound that favors audience recording of PA systems --- somewhat rolled off bass and emphasized mids. IIRC though even those are going to push you past $600 once you add a powering option and the necessary mounts, batteries, cables, etc. They're $400/pr new; even the cheapest phantom powered deck (Tascam DR-40, I believe) is about $200, and cables and batteries and mounts will be another $100 or so.
A less extreme version of what I said would be, yes, for $600 you can improve on the sound of the mics you have, but not by that much. Here's another thought -- I'd take a 4-channel deck that allowed me to do quality matrixes (R-26s are on sale at Pro Sound; see retail section) and your AT853s any day over a better two-channel rig. A four-channel rig as offered by the R-26 or Zoom H6 is also something you can add to later by buying better mics, so it's something you can build on. Conversely, incremental upgrade mics are just going to get resold used at a loss (unless you really think that the Berliners or whatever you end up are the last mics you'll ever own).
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Tascam DR-60D has been rock solid for everyone, AFAIK. It can be had for $169.99
If you're patient, a deal will pop up on a decent recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power. I got my DR-40 for $109.99 at B&H bundled with SF Pro 11. Sold the SF for $50, so I essentially got the DR-40 for $59.99.
If you upgrade to mics with XLR connectors, one of these recorders makes more sense than spending more on another device so the mics can interface with the M10, IMO.
The Berliner CM-33s do sound nice. I picked up a minty pair in the YS for $300.
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Tascam DR-60D has been rock solid for everyone, AFAIK. It can be had for $169.99
If you're patient, a deal will pop up on a decent recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power. I got my DR-40 for $109.99 at B&H bundled with SF Pro 11. Sold the SF for $50, so I essentially got the DR-40 for $59.99.
If you upgrade to mics with XLR connectors, one of these recorders makes more sense than spending more on another device so the mics can interface with the M10, IMO.
The Berliner CM-33s do sound nice. I picked up a minty pair in the YS for $300.
I am checking out the DR-60D. It doesn't sound like you have it, but have there been reports of noise? I would love to keep it simple and have the pre built in to the recording device, but probably want something that I can grow into. If I ran simply to one device, that would be amazing. It looks like I can use two stereo 1/8" inputs at once in Dual Stereo mode? (3/4 and Camera In)? I could ditch my UBB and SPSB-1?
I will be recording next weekend with both sets of mics to an iRiver and M10. I was going to try it out and see how it goes.
Thanks again
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I own the DR-60D. It is my main recorder. Here are a couple of examples of recordings made without an external pre:
VM-44 Links: https://archive.org/details/isd2014-05-24.VM-44.flac24
AKG 391: https://archive.org/details/DonnaTheBuffalo2015-11-21.akgCK91.flac24
I've never had any noise issues. I mainly use the dual recording function to record a second stereo track at -6db to avoid clipping. I have used the 3/4 1/8" input for board feeds, but I have never tried recording two separate stereo sources by using 3/4 and camera in. Not even sure that is possible.
As far as plug-in power, I don't know the exact voltage from the DR-60D, but you'd be better off with the power from the UBB if you are recording anything of significant volume. Most recorders provide around 3V PIP. Your M10 actually provides around 5V, IIRC.
I would only buy a new recorder if you are upgrading mics. The M10 is great for CA gear. I picked up my AKGs in the Yard Sale for $280 and the seller threw in omni caps for $140 more: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168650.msg2097119#msg2097119
Keep an eye on the YS for good deals!
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Tascam DR-60D has been rock solid for everyone, AFAIK. It can be had for $169.99
If you're patient, a deal will pop up on a decent recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power. I got my DR-40 for $109.99 at B&H bundled with SF Pro 11. Sold the SF for $50, so I essentially got the DR-40 for $59.99.
If you upgrade to mics with XLR connectors, one of these recorders makes more sense than spending more on another device so the mics can interface with the M10, IMO.
The Berliner CM-33s do sound nice. I picked up a minty pair in the YS for $300.
Agree w/ this. And I had forgotten about the DR-60D. Unlike the hilarious DR-70D, the DR-60D hasn't had reports of problems.
To the OP, yes, with the DR-60D you can plug two mics into the XLR inputs (even if you stick with the ATs, you can just get PFAs for those inputs) and then you can plug in the SBD (or something else that doesn't require phantom power) into the miniplug input using a miniplug>stereo XLR PFA adapter. Again, an inexpensive component.
I don't think the DR-60D is a bad move at all. I'd just get that and some PFAs and continue running what you have mic-wise, saving up for the rest of the upgrade, IMHO.
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I own the DR-60D. It is my main recorder. Here are a couple of examples of recordings made without an external pre:
VM-44 Links: https://archive.org/details/isd2014-05-24.VM-44.flac24
AKG 391: https://archive.org/details/DonnaTheBuffalo2015-11-21.akgCK91.flac24
I've never had any noise issues. I mainly use the dual recording function to record a second stereo track at -6db to avoid clipping. I have used the 3/4 1/8" input for board feeds, but I have never tried recording two separate stereo sources by using 3/4 and camera in. Not even sure that is possible.
As far as plug-in power, I don't know the exact voltage from the DR-60D, but you'd be better off with the power from the UBB if you are recording anything of significant volume. Most recorders provide around 3V PIP. Your M10 actually provides around 5V, IIRC.
I would only buy a new recorder if you are upgrading mics. The M10 is great for CA gear. I picked up my AKGs in the Yard Sale for $280 and the seller threw in omni caps for $140 more: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168650.msg2097119#msg2097119
Keep an eye on the YS for good deals!
Whoops, should have read your gear sig. Those are both crazy clean recordings! Something to aspire to. Thanks for sharing.
Most of what I record is Post Rock / Metal / Drone, so I would say that I definitely need additional power. If I go the PFA route (researching as we speak), the PIP probably would not cover either sets of Mics, correct?
I will be monitoring the YS as I tend to do. I am an estate/ garage-saler at heart, so prefer to go that route. I am also an over researcher, so I tend to miss out on the good deals as I do my due diligence.
Thanks
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I own the DR-60D. It is my main recorder. Here are a couple of examples of recordings made without an external pre:
VM-44 Links: https://archive.org/details/isd2014-05-24.VM-44.flac24
AKG 391: https://archive.org/details/DonnaTheBuffalo2015-11-21.akgCK91.flac24
I've never had any noise issues. I mainly use the dual recording function to record a second stereo track at -6db to avoid clipping. I have used the 3/4 1/8" input for board feeds, but I have never tried recording two separate stereo sources by using 3/4 and camera in. Not even sure that is possible.
As far as plug-in power, I don't know the exact voltage from the DR-60D, but you'd be better off with the power from the UBB if you are recording anything of significant volume. Most recorders provide around 3V PIP. Your M10 actually provides around 5V, IIRC.
I would only buy a new recorder if you are upgrading mics. The M10 is great for CA gear. I picked up my AKGs in the Yard Sale for $280 and the seller threw in omni caps for $140 more: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168650.msg2097119#msg2097119
Keep an eye on the YS for good deals!
Whoops, should have read your gear sig. Those are both crazy clean recordings! Something to aspire to. Thanks for sharing.
Most of what I record is Post Rock / Metal / Drone, so I would say that I definitely need additional power. If I go the PFA route (researching as we speak), the PIP probably would not cover either sets of Mics, correct?
I will be monitoring the YS as I tend to do. I am an estate/ garage-saler at heart, so prefer to go that route. I am also an over researcher, so I tend to miss out on the good deals as I do my due diligence.
Thanks
99% sure you can't record anything from the camera in; that's just for monitoring. Also, the DR60 does not provide PIP through the channel 3-4 1/8" input. I power my AT853's with the AT8531 power modules and use a 2 XLR>1/8" male to the channel 3-4 input, no problems. Also, I believe the AT8505's will allow you to run phantom to the 853's.
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99% sure you can't record anything from the camera in; that's just for monitoring. Also, the DR60 does not provide PIP through the channel 3-4 1/8" input. I power my AT853's with the AT8531 power modules and use a 2 XLR>1/8" male to the channel 3-4 input, no problems. Also, I believe the AT8505's will allow you to run phantom to the 853's.
DR-60D supplies PIP through the 3/4 1/8" jack: http://tascam.com/product/dr-60d/specifications/
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99% sure you can't record anything from the camera in; that's just for monitoring. Also, the DR60 does not provide PIP through the channel 3-4 1/8" input. I power my AT853's with the AT8531 power modules and use a 2 XLR>1/8" male to the channel 3-4 input, no problems. Also, I believe the AT8505's will allow you to run phantom to the 853's.
DR-60D supplies PIP through the 3/4 1/8" jack: http://tascam.com/product/dr-60d/specifications/
Summabitch. How do you turn it on and off? I don't recall seeing that in the menu anywhere.......
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Summabitch. How do you turn it on and off? I don't recall seeing that in the menu anywhere.......
According to page 46 of the owner's manual: MENU>OTHERS>SYSTEM>PLUGIN PWR
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99% sure you can't record anything from the camera in; that's just for monitoring. Also, the DR60 does not provide PIP through the channel 3-4 1/8" input. I power my AT853's with the AT8531 power modules and use a 2 XLR>1/8" male to the channel 3-4 input, no problems. Also, I believe the AT8505's will allow you to run phantom to the 853's.
DR-60D supplies PIP through the 3/4 1/8" jack: http://tascam.com/product/dr-60d/specifications/
Thanks for the clarification. I assume that I should still use a BB?
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I'm pretty biased being that I own these, but you should definitely check out the Line Audio mics. A single-man shop in Switzerland that makes wide cardiods (CM3) and omnis (OM1). The CM3 are often difficult to distinguish against the Schoeps MK 21 in mic shootouts. Hit the Team Line Audio link in my signature for samples and full info.
CORRECTION:
Line Audio is not placed in Switzerland bus is made in SWEDEN Scandinavien. :facepalm:
http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html :facepalm: (http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html :facepalm:)
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I'm pretty biased being that I own these, but you should definitely check out the Line Audio mics. A single-man shop in Switzerland that makes wide cardiods (CM3) and omnis (OM1). The CM3 are often difficult to distinguish against the Schoeps MK 21 in mic shootouts. Hit the Team Line Audio link in my signature for samples and full info.
CORRECTION:
Line Audio is not placed in Switzerland bus is made in SWEDEN Scandinavien. :facepalm:
http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html :facepalm: (http://www.lineaudio.se/CM3.html :facepalm:)
Yes, sorry about that - mobile typing fail.
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Thanks for the clarification. I assume that I should still use a BB?
Yes. If you are taping metal, you should provide the CA mics with ~9V of power. PIP would work for quiet stuff, but not worth risking overloading/under powering the mics at a loud show.
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I know I'm biased, but I bet you could get a good pair of used mics (maybe AKG, AT, or Busman), and a used dr-680 for $600, then you would be able to snag a board feed, run a second pair of mics if you wanted.
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Thanks for the clarification. I assume that I should still use a BB?
Yes. If you are taping metal, you should provide the CA mics with ~9V of power. PIP would work for quiet stuff, but not worth risking overloading/under powering the mics at a loud show.
I can confirm this. I've run sets of mini/micro mics into the 1/8-inch stereo input of the DR-60D, using a 9v battery box for power. Works just fine. You'll only require PFAs if you want to plug your Church/AT mics into the XLR inputs and use the phantom to power them.
I know I'm biased, but I bet you could get a good pair of used mics (maybe AKG, AT, or Busman), and a used dr-680 for $600, then you would be able to snag a board feed, run a second pair of mics if you wanted.
With the proper cables/adapters, you can easily run a board feed into the 1/8-inch stereo input of the DR-60D.
Other than it's decidedly unsexy, boxy shape (difficult for stealthing), it's a great little deck. Surprisingly, it seems to be mostly free of the idiosyncrasies that plague a lot of Tascam's other recorders.
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Thanks for the clarification. I assume that I should still use a BB?
Yes. If you are taping metal, you should provide the CA mics with ~9V of power. PIP would work for quiet stuff, but not worth risking overloading/under powering the mics at a loud show.
I can confirm this. I've run sets of mini/micro mics into the 1/8-inch stereo input of the DR-60D, using a 9v battery box for power. Works just fine. You'll only require PFAs if you want to plug your Church/AT mics into the XLR inputs and use the phantom to power them.
I know I'm biased, but I bet you could get a good pair of used mics (maybe AKG, AT, or Busman), and a used dr-680 for $600, then you would be able to snag a board feed, run a second pair of mics if you wanted.
With the proper cables/adapters, you can easily run a board feed into the 1/8-inch stereo input of the DR-60D.
Other than it's decidedly unsexy, boxy shape (difficult for stealthing), it's a great little deck. Surprisingly, it seems to be mostly free of the idiosyncrasies that plague a lot of Tascam's other recorders.
Thanks for the first-hand account. I just did some Amazon shopping based on this direction and picked up a few new toys:
- DR-60DmkII - http://url.ie/zc94 I did some searching on TS and didn't see anything specific to the upgrade and figured I might as well go with the newer version. Any thoughts?
- I also found this: http://url.ie/zc91 . Anyone use this? I have been using 3.5mm since beginning my foray into recording, so had to do some digging into the definition/purpose of a PFA. I figured I would go for this since I will be using a BB rather than Phantom Power from the dr-60.
- New Mic Stand Adapters for my AT 853 http://url.ie/zc92 I am sick of the clips!
- Something to hold a camera + 4 mics on my stand http://url.ie/zc93
Thanks all for your insight!
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^ Looks like some nice choices.
Have never used that 3.5 TRS>Dual XLR cable but it looks like it would fit the bill nicely if you want to run into the XLRs on the deck. Just make absolutely sure you never turn on the 48v phantom to mini Church/AT microphones without using PFAs or you will fry the mics. Using channels 3&4 (the 1/8-inch input) for those types of mics is like a safety measure; there's no phantom power through those channels on the DR-60D.
Also, I could've sworn that I recently saw someone in the Yard Sale selling some of those AT mic stand adapters. Worth taking a look.
Finally, if you haven't pulled the trigger yet, I'd suggest doing some comparison shopping at B&H Photo/Video online (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/) to see if they have better deals. I can't imagine the prices to be that much different, but you never know.
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^ Looks like some nice choices.
Have never used that 3.5 TRS>Dual XLR cable but it looks like it would fit the bill nicely if you want to run into the XLRs on the deck. Just make absolutely sure you never turn on the 48v phantom to mini Church/AT microphones without using PFAs or you will fry the mics. Using channels 3&4 (the 1/8-inch input) for those types of mics is like a safety measure; there's no phantom power through those channels on the DR-60D.
Also, I could've sworn that I recently saw someone in the Yard Sale selling some of those AT mic stand adapters. Worth taking a look.
Finally, if you haven't pulled the trigger yet, I'd suggest doing some comparison shopping at B&H Photo/Video online (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/) to see if they have better deals. I can't imagine the prices to be that much different, but you never know.
Ted had some adaptors but it was part of a package. Probably wouldn't hurt to check with Darktrain; I think he has them sometimes.
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I own the Tascam DR-60d and have really appreciated its user-friendly, rock-solid performance. I have used it in many different configurations and never had any problems or noise issues. You can get a used one for under $150 and get some quality used mics/accessories (stand, clips, bar, cables, etc.) with the remainder of your budget. I have made many matrix recordings in smaller venues using AKG 461's (used $500) and/or Studio Projects C4's (new $350 with multiple caps) into channel 1/2 with phantom 48v and sbd (line-in) into the 3.5mm mini input (channel 3/4). There are plenty of internal gain settings and easy and relatively quiet external gain dials. I have also used channel 3/4 mini to directly power my CA-14's through PIP while powering my AKG's with phantom (though you can use UBB). The BE thing is that you can run this entire rig with a simple and cheap 5V USB battery pack. I have a 20,000mAh usb pack that cost $20 and runs my rig for approx 15 hours. Can't beat that! There are tons of examples of the 60-d in the Live Music Archive to listen to.
Also, you can still run 4 mics with it and use your M-10 for a soundboard feed if available. Personally, I don't think an external preamp is necessary these days since the recorder pre's are good quality for loud music (unless you want the coloration). Besides, its just another cog in the system to account for (and another thing in the bag). Good Luck