Topic: Card's advice

[AndyLGR]

I currently have a set of CA-14 omnis, (with an Edirol R09), but I’ve also been thinking of getting a set cards for a little while now. I’ve heard good results with SP-CMC-8, SP-CMC-2 and also CA-14’s.

I’m going to be taping in all kinds of venues, clubs, theatres, arenas whilst standing from the floor and arenas in the seats at the back or sides and they will vary in distance from the stage/PA. So basically all will be stealth, so the smaller the better with mic size I think.

I get the impression that if you are further back then use cards, but if you can get closer to the PA then use omnis.

But I was just after peoples feedback on the cards I mention above and possibly any other alternatives too.

Thanks

[acidjack]

In their price range the SP-CMC-4 (aka AT853), CA-14 and SP-CMC-8 are all fairly comparable and all good choices.  The CMC-8's are smaller than the other two, but also have correspondingly less bass response.

There is no hard and fast rule, but yes, omnis are generally not advisable unless you are either up fairly close or outdoors (and still, ideally, close to the sound source).

In that price range, I think you've covered the most common options.  There are some less common ones that have good results as well, but those three are the most popular.

[adrianf74]

I had the older SP-CMC-8's based on the AT-933/c capsules and I prefer my CA-14'cs.  As acidjack points out, if you're up close or outdoors, use omnis.  If you're indoors, and can't get close, use the cards. 

I've had a lot of experience with the CA-14's this summer.  I use the OMNIS religiously outdoors on stands and will use them also when I'm indoors and no more than about 1/2 way from the stage to the lighting/sound area; that's the only time I'll use the cards and even then I'm becoming more and more reluctant to use them as I find cards sound "fake" to my ears.

[newplanet7]

Cards up close smoke as well further back.
Cards in the impact zone easily take  omnis IMO.
Omnis are great for an onstage stage lip spread or outside open air style.

[AndyLGR]

Thanks everyone.

I got great results with my CA-14 Omnis outdoors at the Download festival, I made sure I was right in front of a speak stack that was positioned half way back in the venue. I also got good results at an arena recently where I was roughly halfway between the stage and mixing desk. But I'd love to try cards in the same positions too, to compare the results.

I'm veering towards buying a set of the SP-CMC-8's, not only because of the sound they get but also the size too. And I have some gigs coming up where I am in the seats at some arenas, so I wont be too close to the PA at those.

In addition, what about the CA-11 cards? Does anyone know how they compare to say the CA-14 cadrs or the CMC-8's?

Thanks

[acidjack]

^^ I personally am not a fan of the CA-11 cards and think there are several other mics in that category that are better, including the AT831 (I forget what SP calls that model) and CMC-8.  But, it's worth noting that all of the smaller-size cardiods will lose some bass response - hence why the CA-14 and AT 853 sound a bit better, but are larger. 

The CMC-8s are nice and small and narrow.  I prefer the sound of them, though they will never be accused of being very bass heavy.

But the best thing is to listen to different samples on the Live Music Archive and decide for yourself.  An early recording I did with CMC-8s is on there that I think is quite nice.

[Belexes]

CMC-8's are thin sounding and has been stated, lacking in the bass department. I use to own a pair and am more than happy with my CA-14's at this time.

Don't let the size deter you. Many of us discreetly tape with large mics without issue.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

In addition, what about the CA-11 cards? Does anyone know how they compare to say the CA-14 cadrs or the CMC-8's?

I have and use both the Church CA-11's and the AT831's that acidjack refers to (Sound Professionals calls them the SP-CMC-2).  While I've gotten great pulls with both mics, I think the AT831's have the edge.  They sound a little more natural to my ears (the CA-11's sound a bit "tinny" on the high end) and have a little more perceived low end. 

Comparing the CA-11's and the CA-14's, I think you're better off with the CA-14's.  Chris himself has stated that they are an improved design and his best microphone.  The recordings I've heard with them seems to confirm that.  The only advantages I can think of with the CA-11's are that you can change out the card capsules with omni's and they are not one-piece with the windscreens (as the CA-14's are) so the mics are slightly smaller.  That doesn't appear to be much of an issue with most tapers that have them.

[F.O.Bean]

I frickin LOVE my CA-14 Cards They have pulled some heat the 8-10 sets Ive used them They sound like 1k mics IMO

[Ziggz]

Here's a sample of a show where I ran CA11 and CMC-8 cards:



CA-11 -> MM-MBM -> iRiver iHp-120:  http://www.megaupload.com/?d=B4BKLCWA
CMC-8 -> SP-SPSB-11 -> Edirol R-09: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SGNIITZ4

CMC-8 / CA-11






CMC-8 w/Adapter + 853 cap / CA-11

[F.O.Bean]

Nice brah!

[MJ]

I had used SP-CMC-8s for a long time.  It totally lacks the bass but I really love to run a pair of SP-CMC-8s if I can use other omni for matrix in the post.  CMC-8s complement especially OKM (Sennheizer) perfectly as OKMs deliver a very warm sound but sound bit muddy, while CMC-8 sound more clear and detailed.  I have tried various cards (CMC-8s, CMC-4s, CA-11, Audix M1280s, AKG ck1, and MK4) to matrix in the post with other omni (DPA4061, DSM-6L, OKM, mod Panasonic mic, Church omni).  SP-CMC-8s and OKM is the perfect match for my stXXlth recording and matrix-in-the-post mission.
It is really worthy of trying if you have CMC-8s and OKM. 

Here are a few samples
Artist: Jeff Beck
Date: July 9th 2005
Recorded from about 12th row in the right side
Card source: SP-CMC-8>SP Battery Box>DAT-D100
Omni source: OKM classic>A3>DAT-D7
Matrix: Sound Forge ver.10 to mix two sources (card 65% & omni 100%)

Big BLock
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SU87LW0A
Scatterbrain
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=06HOG0G7
People Get Ready
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y68GM8U0
Brush With The Blues
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=T27OJ8E4

Koichi

[fmaderjr]

CMC-8's are thin sounding and has been stated, lacking in the bass department. I use to own a pair and am more than happy with my CA-14's at this time.

Don't let the size deter you. Many of us discreetly tape with large mics without issue.

Many, many tapers have posted that the smaller CMC-8 cards have an inferior sound to either the CMC-4U's based on the larger 853 capsule or the CA-14's mostly due to poor base response.

As Belexes says, don't let the size deter you. CA-14's are the best bang for the buck out there. They are capable of making recordings that sound like they were made with far more expensive mics.

[F.O.Bean]

CMC-8's are thin sounding and has been stated, lacking in the bass department. I use to own a pair and am more than happy with my CA-14's at this time.

Don't let the size deter you. Many of us discreetly tape with large mics without issue.

As Belexes says, don't let the size deter you. CA-14's are the best bang for the buck out there. They are capable of making recordings that sound like they were made with far more expensive mics.

[absnj]

I have run both CA-14'cards and omni's indoors, and strongly prefer the cards, other than for taping at the stage lip. I prefer them to the CA-11's, unless you need to be lower profile.  I have run the CA-11's with no pre-amp, but find I need it with the CA-14's.  And as the others have said, you let lots of bang for your buck with Church.

[AndyLGR]

Many, many tapers have posted that the smaller CMC-8 cards have an inferior sound to either the CMC-4U's based on the larger 853 capsule or the CA-14's mostly due to poor base response.

I asked sound professionals as to which they deemed to be the best out of the CMC-8 and the CMC-4U and they said the 4U's were better than the 8's. So I think it will be between these 2 for the ones I go for.

I really like the idea of a matrix using a set of cards and omnis too.

Thanks everyone for the advice, pics and samples. Much appreciated.

[adrianf74]

Many, many tapers have posted that the smaller CMC-8 cards have an inferior sound to either the CMC-4U's based on the larger 853 capsule or the CA-14's mostly due to poor base response.

I asked sound professionals as to which they deemed to be the best out of the CMC-8 and the CMC-4U and they said the 4U's were better than the 8's. So I think it will be between these 2 for the ones I go for.

I really like the idea of a matrix using a set of cards and omnis too.

Thanks everyone for the advice, pics and samples. Much appreciated.

As mentioned previously by myself (and others): the CA-14 cards will be the less expensive route and will yield the results you're looking for.  I wouldn't buy the 4U's for the extra money as there is no benefit there (except for changeable caps if that's what you need).

[acidjack]

Many, many tapers have posted that the smaller CMC-8 cards have an inferior sound to either the CMC-4U's based on the larger 853 capsule or the CA-14's mostly due to poor base response.

I asked sound professionals as to which they deemed to be the best out of the CMC-8 and the CMC-4U and they said the 4U's were better than the 8's. So I think it will be between these 2 for the ones I go for.

I really like the idea of a matrix using a set of cards and omnis too.

Thanks everyone for the advice, pics and samples. Much appreciated.

As mentioned previously by myself (and others): the CA-14 cards will be the less expensive route and will yield the results you're looking for.  I wouldn't buy the 4U's for the extra money as there is no benefit there (except for changeable caps if that's what you need).

..... I believe the OP is in Europe, and may require faster delivery time, in which I'm not sure I agree with you.

[youngsbest]

Something else you may wish to consider is that cards are much more sensitive to handling noise. So if you are attaching your mics to clothing then for quiet music - unamplified piano for example - you will get a lot a rustling whenever you move, which you won't get with omnis.

[SmokinJoe]

If you buy AT853's aka CMC-4U, be sure to get the "low sensitivity mod", else they will distort at loud shows.
(Credit due Chris Church, etc).

[AndyLGR]

..... I believe the OP is in Europe, and may require faster delivery time, in which I'm not sure I agree with you.

Yes I’m in the UK and will be looking to get the new mics for shows coming up at the end of Nov/beginning Dec.

As mentioned previously by myself (and others): the CA-14 cards will be the less expensive route and will yield the results you're looking for.  I wouldn't buy the 4U's for the extra money as there is no benefit there (except for changeable caps if that's what you need).

Are the CA-14’s cards comparable quality wise to mics like CMC-8 or CMC-4U?

If you buy AT853's aka CMC-4U, be sure to get the "low sensitivity mod", else they will distort at loud shows. (Credit due Chris Church, etc).

Is that just for these mics, what if I went for the CMC-8?

Something else you may wish to consider is that cards are much more sensitive to handling noise. So if you are attaching your mics to clothing then for quiet music - unamplified piano for example - you will get a lot a rustling whenever you move, which you won't get with omnis.

Thanks. I haven’t tried it, but I wonder if I could get away with my CA-14 omnis being under a thin shirt. But clearly that isn’t the case for cards then.