Topic: Recorder Upgrade??

[celtic]

Hi,

I've been taping shows for about a year now. So still a newbie I guess. In that time I taped about a 12 bands/gigs. I've been using a Zoom h1 recorder with a SP Battery box and CA14 Card mics. I know have a church battery box to go with church mics. The recordings I got so far are pretty good. My question is, if I was to upgrade my Zoom H1 recorder to say a Tascam DR2D or a sony M10 would it make any real difference to my recordings or is the quality of all concert recordings really down to the mic quality and position when recording? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[adrianf74]

Hi,

I've been taping shows for about a year now. So still a newbie I guess. In that time I taped about a 12 bands/gigs. I've been using a Zoom h1 recorder with a SP Battery box and CA14 Card mics. I know have a church battery box to go with church mics. The recordings I got so far are pretty good. My question is, if I was to upgrade my Zoom H1 recorder to say a Tascam DR2D or a sony M10 would it make any real difference to my recordings or is the quality of all concert recordings really down to the mic quality and position when recording? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

If you're running line-in, I'd almost say there's little difference per-se with the gear you're using.  Preference-wise, I'm happier with the M10 than I ever was with the Edirol (Roland) R-09 (not HR) that it replaced.   The M10 is a very solid piece of equipment that has never given me problems with the clock (as some people have reported).

[spyder9]

Go to www.archive.org and let your ears make the choice.  These recorders have enough samples up there to choose from.  Our opinions mean nothing.

[hi and lo]

If you're running line-in, I'd almost say there's little difference per-se with the gear you're using...

I disagree. See here for some amateur tests of input noise with the H1 and here for mic input noise figures of the H2. Take these measurement results with a grain of salt, but after two minutes to research it becomes rather obvious that the Zoom inputs are about as bad as any recorder available. Even more disturbing is the very poor performance of the H1 when used at lower gain ranges, like one might use in a concert recording situation.

The M10 is far superior in terms of noise performance to any Zoom recorder. This might not matter too much when recording amplified music, but we're literally talking about the best and worst in-class performers and that difference will be noticeable in many situations, I think.

[celtic]

Thanks for the info guys.

The thing I really like about the Zoom H1 is that it is very easy to use. What is the Sony m10 like to use? I guess because its alot more expensive it has a lot more settings and options.

[su6oxone]

The thing I really like about the Zoom H1 is that it is very easy to use. What is the Sony m10 like to use? I guess because its alot more expensive it has a lot more settings and options.

The m10 is a great recorder.  Very easy to use, nice big screen, useful LED indicator lights for each channel (green for above -6dB red for clipping), nice solid build quality, very reliable, low noise, and fantastic battery life (best in class probably).  If you're not planning on upgrading your mics anytime soon, then upgrading recorders to the m10 would make sense. The only real issues with the m10 are the non-lockable gain/level dial (not so much of an issue unless you're keeping it in a pocket while taping) and the clock issue (see the m10 thread about that, but also more of an inconvenience than a significant issue). 

[bryonsos]

The dial is pretty firm, and it has a "bridge" over it, so it won't move too easily. Nothing a small piece of gaff tape couldn't fix/prevent for pocket use.

[ScoobieKW]

The thing I really like about the Zoom H1 is that it is very easy to use. What is the Sony m10 like to use? I guess because its alot more expensive it has a lot more settings and options.

The m10 is a great recorder.  Very easy to use, nice big screen, useful LED indicator lights for each channel (green for above -6dB red for clipping), nice solid build quality, very reliable, low noise, and fantastic battery life (best in class probably).  If you're not planning on upgrading your mics anytime soon, then upgrading recorders to the m10 would make sense. The only real issues with the m10 are the non-lockable gain/level dial (not so much of an issue unless you're keeping it in a pocket while taping) and the clock issue (see the m10 thread about that, but also more of an inconvenience than a significant issue).

Minor correction. The M10 lights tickle green at -12dB not -6dB. The M10 is easy to use, has amazing battery life with 15 hours from 2AA batteries. I used an Zoom H2 from work when I first started taping, but much prefer my M10. (The Zoom H2 that my company owns doesn't get used as the boss thinks it's a piece of crap.)

[F.O.Bean]

Just trust us and get an M10 I love them so much I have 2 of them

[stevetoney]

I'm gonna dissent from the suggestions that have been made so far. 

Question for you...has self noise been an issue for you with the zoom and the recordings you've made this far? 

If so, by all means heed the suggestions provided above. 

However im betting you never even knew self noise might be an issue on these before reading this thread otherwise you'd probably have avoided the zoom in the first place.  Since you're probably recording loud shows, im almost positive you'll never hear a difference between a digital recording made on a zoom vs an m10.  the only exception is if you record low volume shows this may not be true.

So I disagree with everyone else.. I think your better path to sound improvement is to focus on better mics or ensuring you are in the very best possible location in the venue.

[dallman]

I'm gonna dissent from the suggestions that have been made so far. 

Question for you...has self noise been an issue for you with the zoom and the recordings you've made this far? 

If so, by all means heed the suggestions provided above. 

However im betting you never even knew self noise might be an issue on these before reading this thread otherwise you'd probably have avoided the zoom in the first place.  Since you're probably recording loud shows, im almost positive you'll never hear a difference between a digital recording made on a zoom vs an m10.  the only exception is if you record low volume shows this may not be true.

So I disagree with everyone else.. I think your better path to sound improvement is to focus on better mics or ensuring you are in the very best possible location in the venue.

I second this! Mics will make a much bigger difference. You can get a fine recording with a zoom. Yes there may be better recorders, but in the situation you describe, I agree with Steve above.

[ScoobieKW]

I'm gonna dissent from the suggestions that have been made so far. 

Question for you...has self noise been an issue for you with the zoom and the recordings you've made this far? 

If so, by all means heed the suggestions provided above. 

However im betting you never even knew self noise might be an issue on these before reading this thread otherwise you'd probably have avoided the zoom in the first place.  Since you're probably recording loud shows, im almost positive you'll never hear a difference between a digital recording made on a zoom vs an m10.  the only exception is if you record low volume shows this may not be true.

So I disagree with everyone else.. I think your better path to sound improvement is to focus on better mics or ensuring you are in the very best possible location in the venue.

I second this! Mics will make a much bigger difference. You can get a fine recording with a zoom. Yes there may be better recorders, but in the situation you describe, I agree with Steve above.

Yes, get the best mics you can afford, put them in the best sounding spot you can and you'll get a great recording even with a cassette deck.

That said, reliability, build quality, battery life, self-noise and supported bit/sample rates are all good reasons to eventually upgrade from the Zoom.

[celtic]

Self noise is not something I would really have been aware of to be honest. From what I've read and the responses you guys have given I think the major difference between the Zoom H1 and the M10 is Battery Life & Build quality and also less self noise. I think I might stick with my Zoom for another while.
Off topic, regards the best possible location for taping in a venue, do you guys have any suggestions for both small and large venues. I've been taping mostly front of board, dead centre with mixed results. There is a recording of mine here http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=387980, let me know what you guys think, taped from the seats in an arena with a capcity of about 10,000. Thanks again for the responses folks.

[hi and lo]

Sorry to disagree with Steve, who does give most excellent advice, but I think you have every reason in the world to ditch the Zoom. The difference in self-noise performance is > +20dB depending on which measurement sources you refer to. That's by no means a minor difference and I think it speaks volumes about the overall quality of the Zoom unit. Self-noise if just one measurement of many and I would say with high confidence that an upgrade to the M10 will be better in so many aspects beyond just self-noise. Not sure what you can get for a Zoom on the used market, but the M10 is quite affordable, especially here in the US. A bit more expensive across the pond, but still not a bank breaker.

[earmonger]

Is the Zoom noise problem through mic inputs or line inputs? Because it seems that the OP is going mics-->battbox-->line-in.  Which might be another reason to stay with the Zoom for a while.

Regardless, I love my PCM-M10 too and it is no more difficult to use than the Zoom. The settings, if you need to change the defaults, are something you'd probably change once--I have never gone into a settings menu during a show. It's got a nice simple remote. Battery life, build quality have been praised by others. And if you're going to a show that doesn't like tapers, the PCM-M10 looks to the guards like a point-and-shoot camera, not a recorder (or electric razor), because of the recessed mics. One guard warned me not to use the flash.

OP also asked about mic placement. My first choice is generally near the soundboard, because the guys in the sound booth are probably using their own ears to gauge the mix. If you aren't stuck in a seat, though, you should use your ears. Let the opening act be your soundcheck unless you love them too. Move to various locations, close your eyes to eliminate visual cues and see what you like. 

Places to usually avoid: right up close to the stage. The PA is pointing over your head, not where you can hear it,  and while your mics may be able to pick up the stage monitors, the vocals you think you are hearing are probably a combination of lip-reading and your memory of the song. Also, under balconies is usually a bad spot--boosts the bass, muffles the highs.

Every room is different. If you go to a place in your hometown regularly, you should be able find its sweet spot(s) pretty soon.

And get away from people who talk because the best sounding spot in the room is bad with a conversation going there.

[ScoobieKW]

Is the Zoom noise problem through mic inputs or line inputs? Because it seems that the OP is going mics-->battbox-->line-in.  Which might be another reason to stay with the Zoom for a while.

Regardless, I love my PCM-M10 too and it is no more difficult to use than the Zoom. The settings, if you need to change the defaults, are something you'd probably change once--I have never gone into a settings menu during a show. It's got a nice simple remote. Battery life, build quality have been praised by others. And if you're going to a show that doesn't like tapers, the PCM-M10 looks to the guards like a point-and-shoot camera, not a recorder (or electric razor), because of the recessed mics. One guard warned me not to use the flash.

OP also asked about mic placement. My first choice is generally near the soundboard, because the guys in the sound booth are probably using their own ears to gauge the mix. If you aren't stuck in a seat, though, you should use your ears. Let the opening act be your soundcheck unless you love them too. Move to various locations, close your eyes to eliminate visual cues and see what you like. 

Places to usually avoid: right up close to the stage. The PA is pointing over your head, not where you can hear it,  and while your mics may be able to pick up the stage monitors, the vocals you think you are hearing are probably a combination of lip-reading and your memory of the song. Also, under balconies is usually a bad spot--boosts the bass, muffles the highs.

Every room is different. If you go to a place in your hometown regularly, you should be able find its sweet spot(s) pretty soon.

And get away from people who talk because the best sounding spot in the room is bad with a conversation going there.

The only comment to the above, is that the M10 remote has one major flaw. It works even when the hold switch is engaged. Kind of defeats the purpose of a hold switch.

[earmonger]

 

I understand in theory some people's qualms about the Hold switch not locking absolutely everything, but in actual use this is not a problem.

The volume control on the PCM-M10 does not move easily. And you really have to press  the remote buttons.

I keep the PCM-M10 in a camera pouch on my belt, and use the remote to insert track marks during applause, and I'm happy to have it. I wouldn't put the PCM-M10 in a tight pants pocket, but even there you probably wouldn't change the volume because it's got the raised guard. You'd be more likely to unswitch the Hold slider as to change the volume. Tight pants pocket is a bad idea for taping anyway.

If you're worried about the remote....don't plug it in.

[ScoobieKW]

I understand in theory some people's qualms about the Hold switch not locking absolutely everything, but in actual use this is not a problem.

The volume control on the PCM-M10 does not move easily. And you really have to press  the remote buttons.

I keep the PCM-M10 in a camera pouch on my belt, and use the remote to insert track marks during applause, and I'm happy to have it. I wouldn't put the PCM-M10 in a tight pants pocket, but even there you probably wouldn't change the volume because it's got the raised guard. You'd be more likely to unswitch the Hold slider as to change the volume. Tight pants pocket is a bad idea for taping anyway.

If you're worried about the remote....don't plug it in.

The reason why I don't use the remote is that it will stop a recording even when the hold is engaged. It hasn't been a problem for me, but it's enough of a risk for me to avoid the remote.

[flicflac]

Tight pants pocket is a bad idea for taping anyway.

Tight pants may be a bad idea whatever the situation
J/K

[mloewen]

I have had an H2 Zoom and now have the Sony M-10 and my advice is get the M-10 as soon as you can afford to and sell you Zoom in the yard sale here. I sold mine to a guy in Italy.
Also look up Chris Church in the retail store  get a preamp and some C-14s or maybe just a battery box if you only record loud shows. You can get much more expensive Mics but the C-14s will give a good recording for the price.( check for recordings on Live Archive made with Ca 9100, C-14s and the M-10 and judge for your self}  There is debate as to which Mic the omni or cartoid. I use cartoid to cut out noise from behind me but in some cases the omni may do a better job. But don't be afraid to get the Sony I love mine and could not go back. Oh I saw an H2 Zoom new for 99.00 at Best Buy the other day. M-10 are 229.00 with postage included several places online. Best investment in recording you can make besides Church products IMHO.  Then you need to get a mic stand and the many other little things you will find you need happy taping.

[phaedarus]

I'm in the same predicament.

I want to record strictly foley sounds to enhance some non-critical video work and was told an H1 would be ideal due to the mic arrangement (I have no plans to invest in an external microphone).

For whatever reason, Sony's recorders are ridiculously priced here in Canada ($650 for the PCM D-50).

The H1 price seems like a very attractive alternative being that it is just a little over $100.

Has anyone tried doing any foley work with the H1?

[Ozpeter]

Skimming this thread there does seem to be some potential for someone reading it to be confused between the audio quality of the devices under discussion when used variously with internal mics, external mics directly connected to a recorder's mic input socket, and external mics connected via a preamp to a line input socket. 

Every recorder has different strengths and weaknesses in each of these departments, not always just in respect of self noise.  For instance, if you use a Zoom H2 (or H1 or H2N) built in mics for most of your recordings, and you switch to a Sony M10, you will probably be disappointed (the Sony's mics give a close-to-mono sound, even though they are low on self noise).  If comparing a Zoom H2 mic input to a Sony M10 mic input, you'll probably be delighted with the latter (but the H2N is no disaster on the other hand).  Etc etc.

[celtic]

I bought an M10 and it arrived today. It is very small, which is great and very easy to use.  I will be using a Church Battery Box and Church CA14 Cards and will be recording mainly rock bands in small theatres and large arena's.
Would the Best settings be as follow's, yes???

Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 4-5
Line In
Low Cut Filter: On
Limiter:Off

Also why line-in and not mic in?? Mic-in is easily twice as loud as line-in on playback. Is line-in more for those using a pre-amp?


If using Cross Memory recording will it switch from internal memory to card seamlessly?

[acidjack]

I bought an M10 and it arrived today. It is very small, which is great and very easy to use.  I will be using a Church Battery Box and Church CA14 Cards and will be recording mainly rock bands in small theatres and large arena's.
Would the Best settings be as follow's, yes???

Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 4-5
Line In
Low Cut Filter: On
Limiter:Off

Also why line-in and not mic in?? Mic-in is easily twice as loud as line-in on playback. Is line-in more for those using a pre-amp?


If using Cross Memory recording will it switch from internal memory to card seamlessly?

Turn off the low-cut filter.

The line-in should be tried first; if you can't get a loud enough signal, go mic-in.  With Church gear you may very well end up going mic-in to get decent levels, depending what you are recording. The line level input is just less hot than the mic input.

[celtic]

I bought an M10 and it arrived today. It is very small, which is great and very easy to use.  I will be using a Church Battery Box and Church CA14 Cards and will be recording mainly rock bands in small theatres and large arena's.
Would the Best settings be as follow's, yes???

Rec Level: Manual
Mic Sens: Low
DPC(Speed CTRL) : Off
Record Level: 4-5
Line In
Low Cut Filter: On
Limiter:Off

Also why line-in and not mic in?? Mic-in is easily twice as loud as line-in on playback. Is line-in more for those using a pre-amp?


If using Cross Memory recording will it switch from internal memory to card seamlessly?

Turn off the low-cut filter.

The line-in should be tried first; if you can't get a loud enough signal, go mic-in.  With Church gear you may very well end up going mic-in to get decent levels, depending what you are recording. The line level input is just less hot than the mic input.

OK! Thanks Acidjack.