Topic: Cable burn in?

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

I keep seeing reference to this.  Can someone please explain this to me?  How many hours does it take to "burn in" a cable and why is this a good thing?  Thanks folks.

 Ignorantly yours, Mark

[orechall]

I know ToddR would be a good one to answer this from what he told me I would see a slight difference with the cables I got from him after they had about 50 hours burned in on them.  as for why you are getting -T's you got me there but dont worry I got a +T to throw your way and hope that you get that V2 you have been looking for before too long.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Thanks man.  backatcha.

[cshepherd]

Hey Mark,
Yes, it's true.  Cables take about 50 hours to burn in.  Out of the box, an interconnect changes sound pretty frequently for the first hour or so.  The most noticeable points are after 1 hour, 25 hours and 50 hours.  Beyond that, any changes are going to be very subtle.  Cables sound very restrained out of the box, lacking extention on either end.  Often, the treble frequencies will come in before the bass drops.  It's important to pass signal through them for a couple of days before taking them out into the field. 

Chris

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Hey Mark,
Yes, it's true.  Cables take about 50 hours to burn in.  Out of the box, an interconnect changes sound pretty frequently for the first hour or so.  The most noticeable points are after 1 hour, 25 hours and 50 hours.  Beyond that, any changes are going to be very subtle.  Cables sound very restrained out of the box, lacking extention on either end.  Often, the treble frequencies will come in before the bass drops.  It's important to pass signal through them for a couple of days before taking them out into the field. 

Chris

+t Chris.  I'll go ahead and start running em.  Heck it'll give the R4 a good test as well.  :0)

[cshepherd]

Hey Mark,
Yes, it's true.  Cables take about 50 hours to burn in.  Out of the box, an interconnect changes sound pretty frequently for the first hour or so.  The most noticeable points are after 1 hour, 25 hours and 50 hours.  Beyond that, any changes are going to be very subtle.  Cables sound very restrained out of the box, lacking extention on either end.  Often, the treble frequencies will come in before the bass drops.  It's important to pass signal through them for a couple of days before taking them out into the field. 

Chris

+t Chris.  I'll go ahead and start running em.  Heck it'll give the R4 a good test as well.  :0)

Thanks,
If the R4 is new, you should do the same with it.  Electronics take 50-100 hours to burn in as well...some even longer.

[tooldvn]

I've just been reading some google-found sites on cable burn-in, that some interconnects do not have to be plugged in on both sides to burn them in (such as rca's between components), but that other cables like speaker cables require that you actually be plugged into a speaker and constantly hearing music.   No one had anything about microphone cables, what are your guys thoughts, should they be plugged into monitors or a recorder etc for proper burn in, or is it possible to just connect them to a source and leave them unconnected on the other end?

Sure would be nice to have a MOBIE or a cable cooker, don't think I'm quite there that I can justify $800 just to burn-in my cables. ;-)

-dvn

[jpschust]

chris, ill disagree, i can certainly hear a difference in playback between a pair of my cables that are broken in versus a pair that are brand new.  it's not huge but it's there.  id assume it would replicate in recording as well.

[RebelRebel]

Ive been listening really really hard, through good speakers, bad speakers, and ugly speakers. got some mogami golds from vintage king, same length. let one pair "burn in" for 3 days, and did nothing to the other pair. I could tell no difference whatsoever. Still cant.

 The real challenge is a double blind test. id like to see how many people can pick the ones that are burned in out of the bunch.

I am a huge skeptic when it comes to the audiophile hocus pocus, and so far Ive yet to be convinced of anything(other than basic rules, buying hiqh quality stuff is a good idea , using power conditioners, common sense stuff). I think a huge part of this to some is mental.


Chris Church, tell us how you really feel. 

No offense  CShepard, you are a straight shooter, unlike some of your colleagues in the audiophile business who make a kings ransom selling snake oil to the brainwashed. Id have no problem purchasing from you.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

It is B.S cable burn in is a joke the movement of electrons in a conductor (unless the current of the capacity of the conductor is exceeded) do not change the molecular structure of the conductor all they do is rearrange free electrons by negative and positive charges.

Do you believe that the dialectric surrounding the conductor could not be the cause?  Maybe we are not reading the same papers but I have never read any paper that attibuted burn-in effect to changes in the metal conductor.  Every paper I've read proposed that the effect is due to charge accumulated in the insulator over a period of time.   I've also read papers stating that burn in can be attibuted in part to the user becoming accustomed to the distinct sonic traits of one brand of interconnect installed in place of another.   So there are two other theories.

on this very subject. From respected scientists not Crack pots that want to sell you silver ac cords and magic Teflon wire.

I'm curious to know if you hear a difference between ICs or speaker cables?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

By IC I meant interconnects, not integrated circuits.  Sorry, I thought the context was clear.

I'm not talking about the jacket of the cable but the insulator between the shield and the signal conductor.  Your initial statement was that there could be no burn in effect because of changes in the metal of the conductor.  I have never read anyone suggest that was the case.  Rather I've read the suggestion that there is an effect due to stored charge in the insulating material between the conductors of the wire and connectors.  I look forward to your thorough debunking of this suggestion.  Not that I believe one way ot the other, but I'm always interested to hear the scientific basis for someones strongly stated conclusions.

I can believe that you called some cable manufacturer who could not explain any science behind his product.  But a sample group of 1 isn't exactly an exhaustive study of the industry. 

With respect to straight up audible differences interconnects, well I have heard them.  Given two well constructed cables that provide the ideal connnection, I agree that they will should sound the same.  I've compared three interrconnects heads up.  Each had a different wire material, geometry, and connector.  There was an audible difference.  I'm also interested to know what playback system you used for your tests. 

[Kyle]

With respect to straight up audible differences interconnects, well I have heard them.  Given two well constructed cables that provide the ideal connnection, I agree that they will should sound the same.  I've compared three interrconnects heads up.  Each had a different wire material, geometry, and connector.  There was an audible difference.  I'm also interested to know what playback system you used for your tests. 

I think this is the crux of f it. I have burned in a set of cables last night - new set of ToddR Speaker cables. I hooked them up, and began to listen. I think there was a bit of an improvement over a few hours. They seemed to become bore dynamic. But maybe that was just me...

What I think the 'crux' is  - all wires sound different. What makes one cable better than another. The fact that you like the way it sounds over the other. I had Monster 16ga Standard bi-wired on my B&W 601s in the bedroom setup .The ToddR cables have a very different sound. Is it better? The Monster had a more compressed sound, while the ToddR had a more open, clear, detailed sound. The monster had a warmer sound, a more rounded bottom end. Ultimately, I like the ToddR more, due to clarity and dynamics.

Get as many ICs as you can, test 'em out, and find the sound you like. That makes the best cables, imo (barring build quality, etc..)

[Kyle]

No, I was listening to different things. I took a break for a few hours, and then resumed with the movie "Christine". At that point I noticed increased dynamics over the monster cable. The speaker sounded more natural, more open - Def increased clarity. The speakers  sounded a bit boxy before. Like I said, I think many wires sound different and the trick is to find one that is pleasing to your ear.

don't forget placement. Placement is key - but that's a whole other thread

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Chris, thanks for replying.  I have no problem with your arguments against burn-in effects.  You just aren't convincing to me.   Personally I can't say I've heard the effect in ICs or mic cables.   Since the last time I tried with Pulsars, I've tried with a pair of  z-squared ICs since I had one pair in my system for a few months and another pair new from the manufacuter.  I didn't hear a difference in those two.   

I have heard a distinct burn in effect in a power cord and in speaker cables.  So I'm not willing to rule out that the small signal wires might exhibit an effect that is more subtle than my hearing can detect.  There are a lot of people who report that they can hear a difference.   Those aeren't just experiences of a few hours but over extended period of time and different listening sessions.  Quite of a few people on this board report hearing  burn in of ICs and mic cables and they have a lot wider range of experience than me, so I can't easily discount their reports.  you stated that their ears are wrong.   I'm not willing to do that.

Of the people who did hear a burn-in over a longer period of use in their rig, I'm very interested to know if they have gone back to the earlier recordings and could they hear a distinct difference between those and the later recordings.

So anyway, I assume that you are also reporting based on your own experiences mixing sound.  Is that the gear you would use for subjective tests or do you have some sort of reference system for playback?  Just curious if you ever tried and what was the associated gear. 

[RebelRebel]

  I dont get the burn in thing....at least not with cables.

I do believe that there are obvious sonic differences between cable materials, but I say(after a  lot of listening on my own to cables betwen 50.00 and 4,000.00) that any well crafted cable is just as good as another well crafted cable and that a LOT of Clever Marketing is taking place and luring people like sheep to slaughter.

Just a few months ago I had in my hands a pair of VdH cables, Luminous Audios Synchestra Line, Acoustic Zen silverlines, and my Mogamis/ and Todd R cables. Random others in the past year..

I am always looking for ways to squeeze that last bit of "sheen" from my recordings. and thought the differences between the super high priced cables and the Mogamis/ToddRs would be drastic.... not so. Actually , I heard hardly any differences whatsoever in the silver "elite" cables and the DIY ones. Same for the Mogamis and VdH.. What gives? Yet I hear all these people making statements like: "The Heavens Gate amplifier has a sound all of its own ."the soundstage , LF immediacy, High-Mid charisma and depth of emotion of this piece makes your feet really move and your soul rejoice  for a new tommorow". Right.


Im not listening through kmart speakers either. B+W nautilus 802s, Truth Audio TA-1Ps, bryston power amps, mytek DAC, etc.. So how much of this is real and how much is BS??If some of these reviews speak the truth, claiming differences to be as apparent as the nose on your face, how come I cant hear any differences??? How about professionals who say there is no difference?Surely all of our ears arent broken??

and if this audiophile stuff is true, how come more professionals dont buy into it?? why do they use Redco and canare instead of these other brands?? They certainly have the funds...


Will spending 3,000 dollars (or 4 in the case of one of the pairs I was trying) for some "boutique" wire give you that much(or any??) improvement over a 50-100 dollar one?? Will spending 1200 dollars on a "cable burner in-er" be a good investment??

I say heck no. And that any percieved differences would be purely mental...the mind associating super high prices with quality...Id rather spend that dough on microphones and preamps...rather than lining the pockets of some "boutique" corporation(of course greed doesnt exist in the "boutique" manufactruing realm)

I would really like to do some testing, but I have no idea how to render a "scientific" test as I normally just use my ears. To my knowledge there have not been any cable comparison tests here.

Psycho Acoustics is right.