Topic: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?

[Don Kazak]

Hi all!
I'm looking for a proper set of hardware for stealth recording of operas and legal/stealth recording of chamber and symphony music.
The main question is whether I have to use mics with balanced cables. There are many light/sound and other devices in musical theatres and all of them can make interference and produce noises. I had a very disappointing experience with a MTII (the device was defective itself), when I tried to record with its own mic with the provided extension cord. I encountered very bad noise. So I figured to search for another solution. Is it true that any XLR connected mic has a balanced line? If so, I apparently need one of them and some recorder like ZOOM h4n with XLR inputs. Recently I've read a lot of messages on this forum and many articles on the net and decided to buy a Sony PCM-D50 because of its reliability. But there is a couple of things with it, that bother me: the recorder has only minijack input for mics, so I can't use a balanced line that reject interference. The second thing is its inability to drop markers (for a long opera spectacle that lack is sad) and susceptibility to handling noises plus an overpriced remote.
So, should I really use a balanced line or perhaps there are any shielded cables for such situations?
Actually I wish I had a device that I could use without an external mic. Unlike a h4n with its noisy mics, a pcm-d50 has a pair of decent mics that could be helpful to me in some non-critical chamber music cases. And I'm not ready to carry more than one box (may be two) and a pair of mics.
After this first-step decision on a recording gear I'm gonna look for some decent mics. Now I think it might be a pair of some binaural mics in croakie mount for convenient stealth recording. For such cases when one sits in a big hall of a theater it might be hypercardioid mics for picking the needed sound from the stage, but not from all hall's reflections.
What do you think? Opera tapers, please share your experience, if you can.

[StuStu]

Sorry to say, but I don't know of any recorder that offer a high quality internal mic. There are still lots of options to choose from that would physically be a small rig.

[SmokinJoe]

I wouldn't get overly hung up on balanced inputs.  Most of that electrical noise is far enough away that it doesn't matter.  The only noise I've gotten is my own cell phone when I'm stupid enough to leave it on, and put my preamp/recorder in the same pocket.  I'm not sure what you got for noise, but that's not the norm.

The good news is that you probably don't have the same problem as the rest of us.  We have to be constantly concerned with chatty drunks at our shows, and I expect at opera and chamber music, people shut up and listen.

Your MT has balanced inputs I think, just rather than using XLR inputs it uses TRS (Tip/Ring/Sleeve) 1/4" jacks.  It also has and 1/8" stereo minijack for small mics.  Binaural croakies for stealth is probably a good start.  When I've taped an amplified rock band from the balcony of an old "opera house" type venue, I've found hypers to work great to avoid excessive reverberation.  If you are on the floor of the venue, cards work fine.  I would think the same might be true for you, even if the energy levels are less.

[fmaderjr]

Recently I've read a lot of messages on this forum and many articles on the net and decided to buy a Sony PCM-D50 because of its reliability. But there is a couple of things with it, that bother me: the recorder has only minijack input for mics, so I can't use a balanced line that reject interference. The second thing is its inability to drop markers (for a long opera spectacle that lack is sad) and susceptibility to handling noises plus an overpriced remote.
So, should I really use a balanced line or perhaps there are any shielded cables for such situations?
Actually I wish I had a device that I could use without an external mic.

Stay away from anything by Zoom-there are many better options. The newer Sony M10 is getting rave reviews here. It is smaller than the D50, provides great sound quality, also has good internal mics (although you really should use externals no matter what recorder you buy), does allow you to drop markers (Adobe Audition reads them and probably many other editors), and has a small corded remote for starting stopping recording (though it seems useless to me unless you are using internal mics).

I agree with Joe you don't need balanced XLR mics and they make it harder to be inconspicuous. For your application you should probably select mics that are fairly sensitive so you don't have to crank the recorder up too high to get proper levels (meaning not Church Audio mics, which I love, but which are designed for recording loud music and not SP mics with the low sensitivity option). Some sort of SP mics without the low sensitivity option may be a good choice for you.  Someone who records opera could give you some better ideas here. Even with sensitive mics you may find you need to add a small preamp to the chain to get enough clean gain. The Church Audio ST-9100 is great and is quite small. The Church Audio UGLY is even smaller, but you can't easily adjust levels on the fly.

 

[page]

The second thing is its inability to drop markers (for a long opera spectacle that lack is sad) and susceptibility to handling noises plus an overpriced remote.

Stay away from anything by Zoom-there are many better options. The newer Sony M10 is getting rave reviews here. It is smaller than the D50, provides great sound quality, also has good internal mics (although you really should use externals no matter what recorder you buy), does allow you to drop markers (Adobe Audition reads them and probably many other editors), and has a small corded remote for starting stopping recording (though it seems useless to me unless you are using internal mics).

It's been a while since I tried marking tracks, but I personally wouldn't mess with any marking of tracks while the shows going on. Doing so only invites trouble IMHO, and you can track out the recording the next day without problems (and probably do a better job) just fine.

[fmaderjr]

I personally wouldn't mess with any marking of tracks while the shows going on. Doing so only invites trouble IMHO, and you can track out the recording the next day without problems (and probably do a better job) just fine.

I agree. i was just saying you can mark tracks if you want to because Don mentioned it was a feature he was looking for.

If you do mark tracks, there's no way you wouldn't have to readjust them later anyway.

[boojum]

Recording is like NASCAR: speed costs money.  How fast do you want to go?

[acidjack]

Hi all!
I'm looking for a proper set of hardware for stealth recording of operas and legal/stealth recording of chamber and symphony music.
The main question is whether I have to use mics with balanced cables. There are many light/sound and other devices in musical theatres and all of them can make interference and produce noises. I had a very disappointing experience with a MTII (the device was defective itself), when I tried to record with its own mic with the provided extension cord. I encountered very bad noise. So I figured to search for another solution. Is it true that any XLR connected mic has a balanced line? If so, I apparently need one of them and some recorder like ZOOM h4n with XLR inputs. Recently I've read a lot of messages on this forum and many articles on the net and decided to buy a Sony PCM-D50 because of its reliability. But there is a couple of things with it, that bother me: the recorder has only minijack input for mics, so I can't use a balanced line that reject interference. The second thing is its inability to drop markers (for a long opera spectacle that lack is sad) and susceptibility to handling noises plus an overpriced remote.
So, should I really use a balanced line or perhaps there are any shielded cables for such situations?
Actually I wish I had a device that I could use without an external mic. Unlike a h4n with its noisy mics, a pcm-d50 has a pair of decent mics that could be helpful to me in some non-critical chamber music cases. And I'm not ready to carry more than one box (may be two) and a pair of mics.
After this first-step decision on a recording gear I'm gonna look for some decent mics. Now I think it might be a pair of some binaural mics in croakie mount for convenient stealth recording. For such cases when one sits in a big hall of a theater it might be hypercardioid mics for picking the needed sound from the stage, but not from all hall's reflections.
What do you think? Opera tapers, please share your experience, if you can.

Assuming you may be somewhat of an audiophile or at least care about sound quality more than some rock listeners do, I would strongly recommend the DPA 4060 mics.  They are not cheap ($600 or so used) but are the smallest mic you can pretty much get and offer absolutely outstanding detail and accuracy.  Worn on glasses near your ear, they should be virtually unnoticeable to anyone.  They are also quite easy to operate and store.  I have the 4061 (the version better suited to recording louder music) and love them. 

I

[fmaderjr]

DPA 4060's are excellent general purpose mics when omnis are called for. They have around 10 dB more output than the 4061's so are great for stuff that isn't too loud, but are also great recording loud music. Unless you are right by the stacks at an ear crushingly loud show, they are not going to overload. 4061's get all the hype here, but I think 4060's are better mics for anyone but a stack taper (and stack tapes usually suck anyway) or for someone who never records quieter stuff.

[guysonic]

Of course you could take advantage of the M10's excellent low noise preamplifier, and ability to directly power my DSM mics.  Useful for lowest profile and fullest 10-40,000+ cycle stereo-surround recording while sitting in the best seats in the house. 
This seems the highest recorded quality, and lowest costing solution if very natural sounding audio quality matters.  Something the very colored sounding DPA 4060 types cannot provide. 
You can also use the same headworn DSM mic placed on HRTF LiteGUY baffle for regular telescopic/boom mic stand purposes of remote mic placements 6-15 feet up away from audience noises, or best postions very close behind the conductor.

See TS thread details at: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0;all



DSM Classical Recordings at www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[fmaderjr]

Of course you could take advantage of the M10's excellent low noise preamplifier, and ability to directly power my DSM mics. 

That's probably an excellent suggestion. Guy's mics do sound incredible (at least in situations where there isn't too much audience chatter). They are less expensive than DPA's as well-especially if you get an M10 as a recorder and don't need the battery box. 

Now that I have an M10, one of these days I'll pick up a pair of Sonic Studios mics and give them a shot myself.

[Don Kazak]

Sorry to say, but I don't know of any recorder that offer a high quality internal mic. There are still lots of options to choose from that would physically be a small rig.

I realize it. But for some non-critical cases those of D-50 could be proper.

I wouldn't get overly hung up on balanced inputs.  Most of that electrical noise is far enough away that it doesn't matter.  The only noise I've gotten is my own cell phone when I'm stupid enough to leave it on, and put my preamp/recorder in the same pocket.  I'm not sure what you got for noise, but that's not the norm.

The good news is that you probably don't have the same problem as the rest of us.  We have to be constantly concerned with chatty drunks at our shows, and I expect at opera and chamber music, people shut up and listen.

Your MT has balanced inputs I think, just rather than using XLR inputs it uses TRS (Tip/Ring/Sleeve) 1/4" jacks.  It also has and 1/8" stereo minijack for small mics.  Binaural croakies for stealth is probably a good start.  When I've taped an amplified rock band from the balcony of an old "opera house" type venue, I've found hypers to work great to avoid excessive reverberation.  If you are on the floor of the venue, cards work fine.  I would think the same might be true for you, even if the energy levels are less.

Actually my problem can be worse: I think most of quiet noises are masked by the loud rock music, but when one records some soft music (like a string quartet), there are many audible noises in quiet places of a piece.
My MTII is now returned to the strore, because it turned to be defective. So I look for some other device now.

If you are on the floor of the venue, cards work fine

Sorry, what cards are you talking about?

Stay away from anything by Zoom-there are many better options. The newer Sony M10 is getting rave reviews here. It is smaller than the D50, provides great sound quality, also has good internal mics (although you really should use externals no matter what recorder you buy), does allow you to drop markers (Adobe Audition reads them and probably many other editors), and has a small corded remote for starting stopping recording (though it seems useless to me unless you are using internal mics).

I agree with Joe you don't need balanced XLR mics and they make it harder to be inconspicuous. For your application you should probably select mics that are fairly sensitive so you don't have to crank the recorder up too high to get proper levels (meaning not Church Audio mics, which I love, but which are designed for recording loud music and not SP mics with the low sensitivity option). Some sort of SP mics without the low sensitivity option may be a good choice for you.  Someone who records opera could give you some better ideas here. Even with sensitive mics you may find you need to add a small preamp to the chain to get enough clean gain. The Church Audio ST-9100 is great and is quite small. The Church Audio UGLY is even smaller, but you can't easily adjust levels on the fly.

Thank you. I worry about the noises: what if I buy a recorder with non-balanced inputs and get an awful noise in a theater? If anyone is interested, I can post a sample of that recording with a horrible noise. I've done it with my MTII.

I agree with Joe you don't need balanced XLR mics and they make it harder to be inconspicuous.

AFAIK, there are tiny mics with an XLR outputs.

It's been a while since I tried marking tracks, but I personally wouldn't mess with any marking of tracks while the shows going on. Doing so only invites trouble IMHO, and you can track out the recording the next day without problems (and probably do a better job) just fine.

that's a matter of taste. anyway, what trouble do you mean?

Recording is like NASCAR: speed costs money.  How fast do you want to go?

I just want to do records without loud noises and with decent quality to listen them later with my headphones, nothing more. I need to have some seldom-performed pieces in my collection for educational purposes only.

Assuming you may be somewhat of an audiophile or at least care about sound quality more than some rock listeners do, I would strongly recommend the DPA 4060 mics.  They are not cheap ($600 or so used) but are the smallest mic you can pretty much get and offer absolutely outstanding detail and accuracy.  Worn on glasses near your ear, they should be virtually unnoticeable to anyone.  They are also quite easy to operate and store.  I have the 4061 (the version better suited to recording louder music) and love them. 

I

thank you for your advice, but that price is a little big for me. Although I'd like to do detailed records.
======================================
DEAR COLLEAGUES, THE OPINIONS ARE GREAT, BUT WHAT ABOUT BALANCED (XLR) CABLES AND NOISES?

[DSatz]

Hi. Let me try to save you some time and money here. I do legitimate, professional recording of opera and can tell you that stealth (or other technically casual) recording of opera is generally a hopeless cause. Much if not most of the time, you won't hear the voices clearly enough to make the recording worth listening to, except as a vague souvenir of an evening.

So don't bother investing a lot of time or trouble or money in equipment for that purpose, because even if you have full permission, it ain't easy getting a reasonable balance--especially given that the orchestra is generally in front of the stage. I'm all for two-mike recording wherever possible, but opera ain't in that category.

You asked about balanced connections. There's a very good reason that professionals use them exclusively, and that reason gets stronger every year nowadays. You could connect an unbalanced microphone to a balanced cable and the balanced input of a preamp, mixer or recorder, but why bother? Professional microphones all use balanced connections, and the microphones are the critical part of your rig. All properly functioning recorders (used correctly) sound absolutely alike; microphones definitely do not, and even the hypothetically best microphones in the world still depend hugely on how they're used.

In other words, worrying about balanced vs. unbalanced as an isolated issue, rather than the quality and best placement of your microphones, is the wrong tree to be barking up.

--best regards

[Don Kazak]

Hi. Let me try to save you some time and money here. I do legitimate, professional recording of opera and can tell you that stealth (or other technically casual) recording of opera is generally a hopeless cause. Much if not most of the time, you won't hear the voices clearly enough to make the recording worth listening to, except as a vague souvenir of an evening.

So don't bother investing a lot of time or trouble or money in equipment for that purpose, because even if you have full permission, it ain't easy getting a reasonable balance--especially given that the orchestra is generally in front of the stage. I'm all for two-mike recording wherever possible, but opera ain't in that category.

You asked about balanced connections. There's a very good reason that professionals use them exclusively, and that reason gets stronger every year nowadays. You could connect an unbalanced microphone to a balanced cable and the balanced input of a preamp, mixer or recorder, but why bother? Professional microphones all use balanced connections, and the microphones are the critical part of your rig. All properly functioning recorders (used correctly) sound absolutely alike; microphones definitely do not, and even the hypothetically best microphones in the world still depend hugely on how they're used.

In other words, worrying about balanced vs. unbalanced as an isolated issue, rather than the quality and best placement of your microphones, is the wrong tree to be barking up.

--best regards

thank you!
So, do you recommend me not to use external mics at all? Frankly speaking, I find a quality of opera recordings done with ZOOM 2 built-in mics sufficient to me (I hear such records). But it's not convenient to use internals when you try to do a stealth job; that's why I started to look for some external solution, but the interference from theatrical devices bothers me. I had a sad experience with it and wondered about a balanced line as an effective noise rejector. What do you think of this feature of a balanced line?
p.s.: I mentioned ZOOM 2 as an example. Of course I'd pick some better device.

[StuStu]

I believe DSatz is advising that you'll be hard pressed to make a decent, stealth or open, 2 channel recording of an operatic performance.