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Author Topic: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?  (Read 9716 times)

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Offline DSatz

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2010, 11:22:53 PM »
As a long-time member of the Musicians' union, I'm not eager to help you make stealth recordings of live opera performances. The musicians' contract guarantees them royalties if their work is used for any recording other than a single one for archival purposes ONLY. There are also issues of copyright for many operas.

Otherwise, on a technical level, what StuStu said. People are used to hearing the words on an opera recording. You can't get that by putting two microphones at audience distance, at least for loudspeaker playback. It works for human listeners who are there in the hall only because we have two ears and a brain, but no recording company has ever recorded an opera that way. When live opera performances are picked up for broadcast there usually are dozens of microphones, including body mikes on singers and shotgun mikes hidden in the scenery and proscenium. I watch lots of opera DVDs and the range of sound quality is from appallingly bad to OK. But none of it is ever "naturally" miked with a single pair.

Also, just in general, internal mikes are the last resort for almost any purpose. No one builds high-quality condenser microphones into recorders; to do so would raise the cost of the recorder by literally thousands of dollars, and would deprive you of the choice of which type of microphones you prefer to use for a given recording.

--best regards
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 09:14:09 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline boojum

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 02:42:50 AM »
Amen.     8)
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline pafnuzzi

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2010, 04:39:09 AM »
AAAAAAAAAaMMMMMMMMMMeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeN :P
Recorder: Sony PCM M10 red

Offline pafnuzzi

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2010, 04:50:49 AM »
Hi

I also record classical music. You can take the Sony PCM M10 which would be the perfect choise for you applications anyway what mic you use. Forget about zoom and don´t matter about XLR. I tried all this and don´t want this monsters in my pocket for nothing.

Then add a good mic with or without bbox. I personally prefer omni mics since they sound rounder and in opera there is not a lot audience noise.

Regards
Recorder: Sony PCM M10 red

Offline guysonic

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 03:50:12 AM »
Experience shows you can make a very satisfying Opera recording using headworn DSM mics, and even if way, way back in one of the worst audience locations (like underneath the mezz!).   

Here's the above discussed example (see image below) from the sample recordings page found at: www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm


Download the recording directly from http://74.208.10.48/mp3/carmelit.mp3
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline Myco

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2010, 07:06:06 PM »
if you're going to run xlr's into a pre-amp and keep the rig somewhat small and compact, then I can suggest the Nevaton MCE400'S>Aerco MP2, it's worked great for me. I haven't recorded any opera, but I bet this setup would be sensitive enough to pick it up pretty decent.
Microtech Gefell M200: M20/M21/M27 caps> Bumblebee MiAGi-II/Darktrain silver cable's/"Chuck" Belden cables> Aerco MP-2 or Busman modded DR-680 pre-amps> Darktrain cables & interconnects> Tascam DR-680 (Busman mod)
AT853's(card's/hyper's)>AT8533x>Aerco MP-2>Sony M10

Offline raymonda

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2010, 12:10:51 PM »
I wouldn't be too judgemental. What one might find unexceptable to listen to another can find satisfaction! It appears that the OP wants recordings for his own personal use. I say, go for it and enjoy!

He will learn much through out the process, have documentation of his progress for his enjoyment and have some fun, too. I wouldn't be too haed on him by raining on his picnic. Not everyone is fortunate enough to run multi-track open taping.

 

Offline Don Kazak

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2010, 02:03:02 PM »
Thank you, guys, but I'm still not able to figure out, which kind of cables (balanced or may be any shielded) I have to use to do a guaranteed interference-free record.

Offline guysonic

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2010, 02:53:45 PM »
Thank you, guys, but I'm still not able to figure out, which kind of cables (balanced or may be any shielded) I have to use to do a guaranteed interference-free record.
Best to start with knowing exact mics you're using, then decide if needing external preamplifier for powering those mics and inputting to your choice of recorder having features (or not) for supporting running intended mics.
Then decide distance from mics to preamp or deck. 

If over 2 meters distance, then maybe best to use balanced mic-to-preamp/deck, or balanced preamp-to-deck cable if preamp is over 2 meters distance from deck input.

Best cable is type having 100% metal foil shield (usually plenum type has this), but typical flexible balanced mic cable with braided weave with ~85% shield is more than capable of working as needed if connectors are in prestine clean condition (good advice for ALL signal connections). 

If working with mics <2 meters distance from preamp input, then balanced cabling not usually necessary. 

My DSM mics use custom star-quad braided mic cabling known to exceed most normal (even balanced) type cabling, even though wired as 'unbalanced for inputting minijack mic inputs such as found on M10 deck.
"mics? I no got no mics!  Besides, I no have to show you no stink'n mics!" stxxlth taper's disclaimer

DSM HRTF STEREO-SURROUND RECORDING SYSTEMS WEBSITE: http://www.sonicstudios.com

Offline Don Kazak

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2010, 04:44:00 PM »
Great! Guysonic, have you got an idea, what could be a cause of humming in my recording? I did it with a MTII and its own mic with a cord extension. It was in the middle of a chamber hall of a music theater. The recorder and the mic were on my lap. I can provide a sample of that.

Offline DSatz

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2010, 06:48:05 PM »
I have a very different reply from Guysonic's. I wouldn't recommend foil shielding for 99% of the people on this forum, and the 1% (if they exist here at all) know who they are. For one thing it is extremely important for the shield to have the lowest possible series resistance, but foil shielding has considerably higher resistance per unit length than braided copper, which is the preferred type for professional location recording. That's why the drain wire is included--but because it generally isn't wound symmetrically with respect to the signal pair, it can actually become a pathway for interfering signals to get into the audio.

In other words, if anyone assumes that foil shielding should be the ultimate in RFI protection because of the 100% shield coverage, there are plenty of seasoned professionals who can point out the error of that assumption. Big time.

Foil-shield cable is designed for permanent, built-in, physically protected installations--not for the situation in which the cable has to be unwound, might well get stepped on, and then gets wound up again at the end of the night. Stay well away, unless you are an electrical contractor (the possible 1% that I referred to earlier).

The whole shielding thing has been totally overemphasized; much if not most noise from RF interference isn't affected one way or the other by the presence of a shield. There are very widespread misunderstandings about this whole topic, and I hesitate to open the can of worms, but someone should at least say quietly and modestly (the way I always do) that most of the whole audiophile belief system concerning shielding and grounding is for crap.

The main responsibility for rejecting noise due to interference falls on the balanced input that your signal cable is connected to--but depending on the configuration of that input circuit, its ability to reject noise may depend considerably on how well balanced the driving circuit is as well (i.e. the microphone and cable). If those factors are well squared away then (and here is where the audiophile assumptions are so wrong) you can remove the shield from the cable completely, and the noise rejection of the balanced input will still work. (I'm not suggesting that anyone really do this; it's just to make the point that it's the balance that matters in most cases, NOT the shielding.)

The other thing that falls onto the shoulders of the input is exactly how the shield contact from the cable is connected to the chassis ground of the receiving equipment (the recorder in this case). This must be done at a single point as close to the connection point of the cable as possible; otherwise any current flowing in the shield will inevitably leak into the rest of the circuitry. And approximately 0% of the lower-cost, Far-Eastern-manufactured preamps and recorders that people use here are constructed appropriately in this respect (the so-called "pin 1" problem), so the production design of the equipment is pretty much begging for noise and interference problems. These can often be mitigated by the use of Neutrik "EMC" (XLR) connectors on the cables, but analog audio circuit designers need to do their homework better in the future.

Enough lecturing; you've got a well-known piece of troublesome gear (the MicroTrack) whose analog inputs simply suck, though they suck less when driven at line levels by balanced sources and cables than unbalanced sources and cables. Still, I would advise you to feed the thing a digital signal instead. Second choice is to use a preamp with balanced outputs and to feed a line-level signal through balanced cables to the analog inputs of the MicroTrack. I would never advise using that recorder for anything critical anyway--it's far too unreliable--but I certainly wouldn't advise connecting microphones to its analog inputs.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 01:17:12 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline Don Kazak

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2010, 07:21:45 PM »
Actually I got rid of my MTII after five days of owning it and one recording session. I only described my experience, and now I plan to get D50.
DSatz, your lecture is very informative. What do you think of D50's internal mics? And could you give me an advice on what kind of mics should I get with it for interference-free recording?
I'm just a musician and sometimes want to do recordings of rare-played music for my personal educational purposes only. So I don't care of all audiofile finenesses, I just want to make noise-free recordings with a decent dynamic range (SNR).

Offline audBall

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Re: The best equipment for opera/chamber music? Should I use balanced cables?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2010, 09:59:34 AM »
Speaking of opera, we've got some original Rossini vocal scores at the ASU Music Library now.  Neat stuff.  I love the fact that I can check out just about any opera in circulation as well. 
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Offline earmonger

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@Don Kazak--

There are many levels of experience and fussiness on this board.  It sounds to me like you want to make a decent-sounding audience recording with a basic stealth rig.

Here's what I would try:

The Sony PCM-M10
and a pair of Sound Professionals BMC-2 mics with clips.

 Put the sensitivity at High, the recording level on Manual, the input recording level knob at 5, or 6 if you're further back in the hall.

Wear a black shirt to camouflage the little mics, clip the mics to your shirt collar at the width of your ears,  and start recording. Look down at the recorder's LED's if you can--like if you have it in a camera case on a belt--and they should be either dark or green. If they start flashing red, turn the input volume knob down just a little bit (and don't do it often--you'll hear the volume change in the recording).

Don't worry about balanced cables. Just plug in and go.

I don't know why you got hum in your recording, but having the recorder in your lap probably gave you a muffled recording. (Try listening with your head down there.) Maybe there was a ventilation fan or something under the floor. Just a guess.

This will not give you an opera recording worthy of a radio broadcast. But it will give you a reasonable facsimile of what you heard.

Offline Don Kazak

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earmonger, thanks for your advice.
I'll try to do it. Actually I'm waiting for a D50, which I've ordered lately.

 

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