Topic: Stereo recorders and binaural

[Leon]

Hello folks!

Great knowledge in here...I love reading this forum, and now I am a part of it also. 

I have not much experience in recording but I want to and I will be purchasing some gear this summer. I want to record nature ambient sounds...like birds and surroundings etc, and also to record some nature and urban action with binaural mics. I've been searching the web here and there and been listening to some samples...So I finally decided to get a  Sony PCM M10 for ambience and for binaural I like Roland CS-10EM.
Since I am on a budget this is the best quality vs price I could find so far.

For example I didn't quite like how H4n internal mics sound in the high mids...but for a second budget recorder what I need is it to have low self noise and good sounding preamps for the CS-10EM.
I also didn't really like how OKM II sound...I did like Shure 183 but they are much pricier and they are clips so I don't know how to mount them to my ears to make binaural...(?)

Now, sometimes I would like to record both at the same time, so, what would you recommend for another recorder? I'm seeing Soundman offers its DR 2 for 35e...which is really cheap comparing to all the other recorders...so I was wondering if anyone has some new insights on the sound quality of DR 2? Couldn't find this info in the old topic about DR2. Its got just 2GB internal memory, I wonder how much recorded minutes is that if recording WAV at 24/48...

Any advice is most wellcome

Regards...Leon

[rocksuitcase]

Welcome Leon. There are some mic manufacturers/retrofitters that frequent this forum who have much more knowledge of the cost of mics these days than I do. As for a budget recorder, My friend owns an Olympus LS 10. I have a link which lists it at $199.00, maybe not too budget!

http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/audio/pcm-recorders.html?utm_source=web&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=redirect_pcm_recorders

the main reason I replied is that I have some experience with binaural recording back in the early-mid eighties. The experience is mainly music recording, we did do some ambient and nature recording with the Sennheiser MKE 2002 which featured a nice dummy head and a pocket sized pre-amp.
http://www.tgos.fr/page14/files/a8ada6746b53102a60f637247b72d970-15.html
these are antiques and no longer made. we made some decent recordings of concerts with them, mostly Grateful Dead shows from that timeframe. You have to be very close to the sound source/stage to make good High Sound Pressure recordings with those mics (and binuaral in general). Of course, you also need to realize that listening back over headphones is the only TRUE way to recreate the experience. Loudspeakers are close, especially some current surround systems.
I know some on TS speak of the Core Sound Binaurals: http://www.core-sound.com/mics/1.php
These may be a good tool for the types of nature and ambient recordings you are doing.

[Marshall7]

At 24/48 2 GB is almost exactly 2 hours.

[Leon]

Thank you very much for the answers.

As for the Sennheiser MKE 2002...unfortunately the price is a bit too over my head, but I will definately remember them for the future to come because I also want to record concerts as well.

2hours...that really isn't much. And with internal memory no option to change cards. Does anyone know the battery life (if recorded mp3) ...how long Soundman DR2 can last? And the sound quality and self noise of DR 2 anyone?

Thanks!

[John Willett]

As for the Sennheiser MKE 2002...unfortunately the price is a bit too over my head, but I will definitely remember them for the future to come because I also want to record concerts as well.

The MKE 2002 was discontinued about 20 years ago !

Personally I would consider a Schneider or Jecklin disk and a pair of good omnis for this sort of work nowadays.

[rocksuitcase]

As for the Sennheiser MKE 2002...unfortunately the price is a bit too over my head, but I will definitely remember them for the future to come because I also want to record concerts as well.

The MKE 2002 was discontinued about 20 years ago !

Personally I would consider a Schneider or Jecklin disk and a pair of good omnis for this sort of work nowadays.

Just to be clear, I didn't recommend he use the MKE 2002, I was showing Leon my experience with binaural.
Also, a jecklin disk is not binaural. to actuallly achieve binaural pickup you need to position two back pressure (pressure zone) microphones around a real or simulated head. Those types of mics (what a PZM is, in fact) captures first reflections (reflections off of a surface, such as the pinnae of the outer ear) rather than the initial sound source.
Check out this post which the users go back and forth discussing this same issue:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/143551-please-recommend-good-binaural-mic-set.html
check out post 7, 26, and 33.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

Now, sometimes I would like to record both at the same time, so, what would you recommend for another recorder?

You might consider the Zoom H2n.

And for binaural mics please have a look at what we offer, from $75 per pair for the Low Cost Binaurals to the High End Binaurals using DPA capsules for a hair under $1000.

[Marshall7]

2hours...that really isn't much. And with internal memory no option to change cards.

Thanks!

Surely the recorder accepts removable cards with larger capacity than 2 GB?

[trustthex]

2hours...that really isn't much. And with internal memory no option to change cards.

Thanks!

Surely the recorder accepts removable cards with larger capacity than 2 GB?

Nope, and appears to only support MP3 & 16bit wave.  I'd say run in the other direction, but that's just me.

[John Willett]

As for the Sennheiser MKE 2002...unfortunately the price is a bit too over my head, but I will definitely remember them for the future to come because I also want to record concerts as well.

The MKE 2002 was discontinued about 20 years ago !

Personally I would consider a Schneider or Jecklin disk and a pair of good omnis for this sort of work nowadays.

Just to be clear, I didn't recommend he use the MKE 2002, I was showing Leon my experience with binaural.
Also, a jecklin disk is not binaural. to actuallly achieve binaural pickup you need to position two back pressure (pressure zone) microphones around a real or simulated head. Those types of mics (what a PZM is, in fact) captures first reflections (reflections off of a surface, such as the pinnae of the outer ear) rather than the initial sound source.
Check out this post which the users go back and forth discussing this same issue:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/143551-please-recommend-good-binaural-mic-set.html
check out post 7, 26, and 33.

I know a Jecklin disk isn't "binaural" as it does not have artificial ears - though it *does* work and also is fine on loudspeakers.

But, unless you use ear canal headphones a dummy head recording will go through the pinnae twice - first the dummy head and then the ones on your own head.

Personally I prefer a Schneider disk as it more closely resembles a human head (though still without ears), but at least it only goes through pinnae once (your own).

[Gutbucket]

Definitions change.

What Alan Blumelin referred to as 'binaural' in his 1930s Columbia/EMI research eventually became known commercially as 'stereo' in the late 1950s.  These days most take 'binaural' to mean recordings made specifically for headphone playback, usually made by placing small microphones in one's ears or alternately by using an anatomical dummy head such as the Neumann.

Put on some headphones and listen to some of the ZBS radio programs made with the Neumann 25 years ago, they're fantastic.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

But, unless you use ear canal headphones a dummy head recording will go through the pinnae twice - first the dummy head and then the ones on your own head.

One can make excellent binaural recordings by placing the microphones near the entrance of the ear canal, but not in it. Recordings made in that way include the influence of the pinna, head and shoulders, and are not degraded by having to go through the ear canal twice. They also don't require in-ear 'phones for listening.

Personally I prefer a Schneider disk as it more closely resembles a human head (though still without ears), but at least it only goes through pinnae once (your own).

We recommend Jecklin Disks for recording wide angle sound sources, such as large choirs and orchestras recorded at close range. We recommend Schneider Disks for recording smaller ensembles that present over a narrower angle (e.g., string quartets, small choirs). In my opinion, the Schneider Disks preserve location cues a bit better.

Jecklin Disks do a fine job of creating clear frequency differences between the two channels related to the flat baffle's dimensions, that our brain interprets as directional cues. The Schneider Disk's has those and adds diffraction/absorbtion cues related to the embedded sphere's effects.

Core Sound stocks and sells both Disks.

[Gutbucket]

Interesting.  Never having used the Schneider, I've always been currious about how significant the auditory diffrences are to using a Jecklin.

[Marshall7]

2hours...that really isn't much. And with internal memory no option to change cards.

Thanks!

Surely the recorder accepts removable cards with larger capacity than 2 GB?

Nope, and appears to only support MP3 & 16bit wave.  I'd say run in the other direction, but that's just me.

Although, if it only accepts 16 bit then he'll get longer than 2 hours recording time, as that was based on his (and my) assumption of 24/48.

[rocksuitcase]

But, unless you use ear canal headphones a dummy head recording will go through the pinnae twice - first the dummy head and then the ones on your own head.

One can make excellent binaural recordings by placing the microphones near the entrance of the ear canal, but not in it. Recordings made in that way include the influence of the pinna, head and shoulders, and are not degraded by having to go through the ear canal twice. They also don't require in-ear 'phones for listening.

Personally I prefer a Schneider disk as it more closely resembles a human head (though still without ears), but at least it only goes through pinnae once (your own).

We recommend Jecklin Disks for recording wide angle sound sources, such as large choirs and orchestras recorded at close range. We recommend Schneider Disks for recording smaller ensembles that present over a narrower angle (e.g., string quartets, small choirs). In my opinion, the Schneider Disks preserve location cues a bit better.

Jecklin Disks do a fine job of creating clear frequency differences between the two channels related to the flat baffle's dimensions, that our brain interprets as directional cues. The Schneider Disk's has those and adds diffraction/absorbtion cues related to the embedded sphere's effects.

Core Sound stocks and sells both Disks.

I'm going to say from both an acoustics and psychoacoustics pov, Len has it broken down very well. I can tell you with 100% certainty that our binaural recordings (sennheieser MKE 2002) using the dummy head playback more "accurately" using headphones and it really doesn't matter whether they are in ear or over ear.
One reason we moved away from the dummy head for concert recordings was the fact of the sound quality being more diffuse when played back via loudspeakers and we realized most people would rather listen via loudspeakers than headphones. (caveat that this was the mid 1980's and there really weren't in-ear earphones like there is now-not to mention ipods or digi bit buckets which certainly weren't around then)