Topic: Do I need a Battery Box or Preamp?

[IRiver19]

I think I'm going to purchase SP-BMC-12 mics.  I mainly want to record classical concerts and musicals.  I'll never be recording rock concerts or any shows where it would be a smart idea to wear earplugs.  Are these mics good for that?  I listened to cardioids and they sounded tinny so I'd prefer omnis.

Onto the main question.  I have a Sony RH10.  Do I need a preamp or battery box to run line-in.  I'm confused as to whether a preamp can serve as a battery box.  Can I just increase the volume with Cooledit instead of buying a preamp?  I'm on a budget of 200 dollars for the mic/preamp/battery box.  What do you guys recommend?  I've never recorded before so I'm pretty clueless.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

We make a really good set of omni mics and a preamp for $149.99 that will work great for your application PM me for audio samples and details if your interested..

Chris Church
Church Audio

I think I'm going to purchase SP-BMC-12 mics.  I mainly want to record classical concerts and musicals.  I'll never be recording rock concerts or any shows where it would be a smart idea to wear earplugs.  Are these mics good for that?  I listened to cardioids and they sounded tinny so I'd prefer omnis.

Onto the main question.  I have a Sony RH10.  Do I need a preamp or battery box to run line-in.  I'm confused as to whether a preamp can serve as a battery box.  Can I just increase the volume with Cooledit instead of buying a preamp?  I'm on a budget of 200 dollars for the mic/preamp/battery box.  What do you guys recommend?  I've never recorded before so I'm pretty clueless.

[som]

I've recorded several musicals and classical concerts with just the SP-CMC8's, battery box, and D7. Going mic in, I found that even moderate volumes would overload the mic preamp and cause bad distortion. Going line in I found that I did not have sufficient levels so I picked up a lot of ambient noise and left a lot of the dynamics on the table, so to speak.

So, based on my experience, I'd say that you definitely want a preamp. Maybe the built in mic-in preamp on the RH10 may handle things better than my D7, but I doubt it.

I've ordered a Church Audio preamp and am looking forward to trying it out!

[Javier Cinakowski]

Do I need a preamp or battery box to run line-in.

a battery box will feed the line in, in loud situations.  in quiet/moderatly loud situations a preamp(w/ 2-11v PIP) is needed to feed the line in.

Can I just increase the volume with Cooledit instead of buying a preamp?

Sure, but it will sound poor because you are adding a ton of noise by doing that.

 

I'm on a budget of 200 dollars for the mic/preamp/battery box.  What do you guys recommend?  I've never recorded before so I'm pretty clueless.

Church's preamps are nice.  Ive never heard anything about the mics.  Chris should have answered your questions along with his soliciting of gear. 


Have fun taping! 

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Hi the problem your having is that your overloading the first stage of the built in mic preamp you need to attenuate the signal before it gets to your mic preamp if you have a line input you might want to try an external preamp. I think it would work much better for you application.

Chris Church

I've recorded several musicals and classical concerts with just the SP-CMC8's, battery box, and D7. Going mic in, I found that even moderate volumes would overload the mic preamp and cause bad distortion. Going line in I found that I did not have sufficient levels so I picked up a lot of ambient noise and left a lot of the dynamics on the table, so to speak.

So, based on my experience, I'd say that you definitely want a preamp. Maybe the built in mic-in preamp on the RH10 may handle things better than my D7, but I doubt it.

I've ordered a Church Audio preamp and am looking forward to trying it out!

[IRiver19]

Thanks for clearing up the difference between a batt box and preamp.  I ordered a Church ST-9000 preamp and his B-99M omnis.  Hopefully I'll get them in a week or so and be able to post some recordings if anyone is interested in hearing how they sound in the hands of a newbie.

[poorlyconditioned]

Hi the problem your having is that your overloading the first stage of the built in mic preamp you need to attenuate the signal before it gets to your mic preamp if you have a line input you might want to try an external preamp. I think it would work much better for you application.

Chris Church

That is NOT true for the new minidiscs!  All you need is *mics + battery box*.  (The older minidiscs had a mic input that was too sensitive.  All newer minidiscs, and some of the old ones, have a "mic sensitivity" setting, so you could avoid overload.)

Here are the rules:
- quiet (nature sounds, regular talking, etc): mic in, hi sensistivity, plug in power if you like
- moderate (acoustic music, or small PA, theatre, spoken word): mic in, low sensitivity, *battery box* recommended
- loud (amplified music or full orchestra): line in, battery box.

In all cases, you're not going to improve the quality much unless you get a very good preamp.  Something like Sound Devices MP2 or similar is recommened.  If you really want it, save up and spend $400 there, and you'll have it for life (1 year in Tapir slut life).

My opinion is that you really only *need* a preamp when you're running quiet to moderate volume, and it is into a device, like NJB3, that doesn't have any good gain on the line input.

  Richard

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I respectfully disagree my preamp has much less noise then any preamp built into ANY MINIDISC RECORDER. I don't agree with the battery box thing because it forces you to use the gain control on the line input. Where again my preamp has much less self noise then anything built into a mindisc recorder I should know I have one of the best HIMD recorders sony has ever made and its noisey as all hell, for loud situations its not as nessisary. But even in loud situations, if your not getting enough gain and you have to normailize your going to be increasing the noise in recording because you are boosting the noise that is already there. Because you did not use a good preamp!  I would first recomend that a beginner try a battery box but if he or she is still not happy then try a preamp. It does make a difference there is good reason why many guys here use external preamps! and its not for show. Just because my preamp does not cost $400 does not mean it will improve your recordings!

I really do respect you Richard, you know alot about audio / electronics But you also know there is truth to what I am saying.




Chris Church

Hi the problem your having is that your overloading the first stage of the built in mic preamp you need to attenuate the signal before it gets to your mic preamp if you have a line input you might want to try an external preamp. I think it would work much better for you application.

Chris Church

That is NOT true for the new minidiscs!  All you need is *mics + battery box*.  (The older minidiscs had a mic input that was too sensitive.  All newer minidiscs, and some of the old ones, have a "mic sensitivity" setting, so you could avoid overload.)

Here are the rules:
- quiet (nature sounds, regular talking, etc): mic in, hi sensistivity, plug in power if you like
- moderate (acoustic music, or small PA, theatre, spoken word): mic in, low sensitivity, *battery box* recommended
- loud (amplified music or full orchestra): line in, battery box.

In all cases, you're not going to improve the quality much unless you get a very good preamp.  Something like Sound Devices MP2 or similar is recommened.  If you really want it, save up and spend $400 there, and you'll have it for life (1 year in Tapir slut life).

My opinion is that you really only *need* a preamp when you're running quiet to moderate volume, and it is into a device, like NJB3, that doesn't have any good gain on the line input.

  Richard

[poorlyconditioned]

I respectfully disagree my preamp has much less noise then any preamp built into ANY MINIDISC RECORDER. I don't agree with the battery box thing because it forces you to use the gain control on the line input. Where again my preamp has much less self noise then anything built into a mindisc recorder I should know I have one of the best HIMD recorders sony has ever made and its noisey as all hell, for loud situations its not as nessisary. But even in loud situations, if your not getting enough gain and you have to normailize your going to be increasing the noise in recording because you are boosting the noise that is already there. Because you did not use a good preamp!  I would first recomend that a beginner try a battery box but if he or she is still not happy then try a preamp. It does make a difference there is good reason why many guys here use external preamps! and its not for show. Just because my preamp does not cost $400 does not mean it will improve your recordings!

I really do respect you Richard, you know alot about audio / electronics But you also know there is truth to what I am saying.




Chris Church

Hi the problem your having is that your overloading the first stage of the built in mic preamp you need to attenuate the signal before it gets to your mic preamp if you have a line input you might want to try an external preamp. I think it would work much better for you application.

Chris Church

That is NOT true for the new minidiscs!  All you need is *mics + battery box*.  (The older minidiscs had a mic input that was too sensitive.  All newer minidiscs, and some of the old ones, have a "mic sensitivity" setting, so you could avoid overload.)

Here are the rules:
- quiet (nature sounds, regular talking, etc): mic in, hi sensistivity, plug in power if you like
- moderate (acoustic music, or small PA, theatre, spoken word): mic in, low sensitivity, *battery box* recommended
- loud (amplified music or full orchestra): line in, battery box.

In all cases, you're not going to improve the quality much unless you get a very good preamp.  Something like Sound Devices MP2 or similar is recommened.  If you really want it, save up and spend $400 there, and you'll have it for life (1 year in Tapir slut life).

My opinion is that you really only *need* a preamp when you're running quiet to moderate volume, and it is into a device, like NJB3, that doesn't have any good gain on the line input.

  Richard

Hmm.  I've made lots of MD recordings over the years, some with mic input and some with line input.  I've never had a problem with noise at all.

The only time I've got noise is for really quiet stuff, and even there, I suspect most of this was microphone self-noise, and not the MD.

Admittedly, I have not really challenged it, but I've recorded a lot of folk/rock shows and never had a problem.  There may be a slight improvement getting a pre and running line in (this avoids the distortion the built in mic pre), but I think a lot more depends on the mics.  I mean those mics have a self noise at 30dBA or something.  The MD has got to be much less than that!

OK, how about I put up a sample recorded with AT853, self-made 3-wire battery box, and mic in (low sens).  I'll try to do this tonight.  Remind me if I forget .

  Richard

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Hmmmm I think you’re missing the point of my argument. A) My preamp is in fact quieter then the one built into ANY Minidisc recorder B) And it costs as much as MOST people charge for a battery box. I guess that’s got some people upset. But facts are facts, there is a difference, there is less noise in the recording! Thus it’s better to have a preamp that has a better signal to noise ratio then to have one that does not. Also I would love to argue the point of differences of sound quality as I am a sound engineer. But let’s just say that it’s better to get a hot input into any recorder then to ask a crappy built in preamp to amplify the signal. And furthermore its better to NOT to introduce digital attenuation to a signal and to run the line input at 0db not boosting or cutting WHEN EVER POSSIBLE. Ask any real sound engineer like my self they will all say the same thing. Digital attenuation sucks, it’s better to reduce or boost the signal in the analog domain, then to have to quantize the signal even further, adding to the propogational delay and reducing the slew rate of the signal and all that jazz. I could go into in-depth discussion about the facts of audio and using a preamp vs. trying to get gain from a cheap ass md preamp but I would expect you would know the difference, maybe the real problem is my preamp sales are up and your battery box sales are down? I donno, I am not selling snake oil here my preamps do make a difference ask anyone who has one of my new series of preamps, they will all say the same thing it sounds better then just a battery box. Because there is less noise Just because you can not hear the noise does not mean that that noise in the signal is present and does change the way in witch the signal gets digitized. It does everything that is recorded gets converted into 0 / 1 even noise and the very fact that it is there in the signal changes the way the signal is converted. END OF ARGUMENT 

I respect you Richard but, Audio engineering is my life dude. I am not just some guy that makes mics and preamps. I can not spell to save my life and I often do not punctuate my sentences, but I love audio it’s my true passion.

And I have never been into nor will I ever sell something, I don’t think sounds good to my ears. Ps….I do not use Panasonic capsules. 



Chris Church

I respectfully disagree my preamp has much less noise then any preamp built into ANY MINIDISC RECORDER. I don't agree with the battery box thing because it forces you to use the gain control on the line input. Where again my preamp has much less self noise then anything built into a mindisc recorder I should know I have one of the best HIMD recorders sony has ever made and its noisey as all hell, for loud situations its not as nessisary. But even in loud situations, if your not getting enough gain and you have to normailize your going to be increasing the noise in recording because you are boosting the noise that is already there. Because you did not use a good preamp!  I would first recomend that a beginner try a battery box but if he or she is still not happy then try a preamp. It does make a difference there is good reason why many guys here use external preamps! and its not for show. Just because my preamp does not cost $400 does not mean it will improve your recordings!

I really do respect you Richard, you know alot about audio / electronics But you also know there is truth to what I am saying.




Chris Church

Hi the problem your having is that your overloading the first stage of the built in mic preamp you need to attenuate the signal before it gets to your mic preamp if you have a line input you might want to try an external preamp. I think it would work much better for you application.

Chris Church

That is NOT true for the new minidiscs!  All you need is *mics + battery box*.  (The older minidiscs had a mic input that was too sensitive.  All newer minidiscs, and some of the old ones, have a "mic sensitivity" setting, so you could avoid overload.)

Here are the rules:
- quiet (nature sounds, regular talking, etc): mic in, hi sensistivity, plug in power if you like
- moderate (acoustic music, or small PA, theatre, spoken word): mic in, low sensitivity, *battery box* recommended
- loud (amplified music or full orchestra): line in, battery box.

In all cases, you're not going to improve the quality much unless you get a very good preamp.  Something like Sound Devices MP2 or similar is recommened.  If you really want it, save up and spend $400 there, and you'll have it for life (1 year in Tapir slut life).

My opinion is that you really only *need* a preamp when you're running quiet to moderate volume, and it is into a device, like NJB3, that doesn't have any good gain on the line input.

  Richard

Hmm.  I've made lots of MD recordings over the years, some with mic input and some with line input.  I've never had a problem with noise at all.

The only time I've got noise is for really quiet stuff, and even there, I suspect most of this was microphone self-noise, and not the MD.

Admittedly, I have not really challenged it, but I've recorded a lot of folk/rock shows and never had a problem.  There may be a slight improvement getting a pre and running line in (this avoids the distortion the built in mic pre), but I think a lot more depends on the mics.  I mean those mics have a self noise at 30dBA or something.  The MD has got to be much less than that!

OK, how about I put up a sample recorded with AT853, self-made 3-wire battery box, and mic in (low sens).  I'll try to do this tonight.  Remind me if I forget .

  Richard

[rdflash]

+ T to chris church, you guys flame him for soliciting, but he helps ppl out and this is what TS is all about.

chris, your spelling has come a long way, by the way.

good job on everything.  and im not being a dick at all.

thanks chris, i enjoy your insight to the board.

[poorlyconditioned]

Hmmmm I think you’re missing the point of my argument. A) My preamp is in fact quieter then the one built into ANY Minidisc recorder B) And it costs as much as MOST people charge for a battery box. I guess that’s got some people upset. But facts are facts, there is a difference, there is less noise in the recording! Thus it’s better to have a preamp that has a better signal to noise ratio then to have one that does not. Also I would love to argue the point of differences of sound quality as I am a sound engineer. But let’s just say that it’s better to get a hot input into any recorder then to ask a crappy built in preamp to amplify the signal. And furthermore its better to NOT to introduce digital attenuation to a signal and to run the line input at 0db not boosting or cutting WHEN EVER POSSIBLE. Ask any real sound engineer like my self they will all say the same thing. Digital attenuation sucks, it’s better to reduce or boost the signal in the analog domain, then to have to quantize the signal even further, adding to the propogational delay and reducing the slew rate of the signal and all that jazz. I could go into in-depth discussion about the facts of audio and using a preamp vs. trying to get gain from a cheap ass md preamp but I would expect you would know the difference, maybe the real problem is my preamp sales are up and your battery box sales are down? I donno, I am not selling snake oil here my preamps do make a difference ask anyone who has one of my new series of preamps, they will all say the same thing it sounds better then just a battery box. Because there is less noise Just because you can not hear the noise does not mean that that noise in the signal is present and does change the way in witch the signal gets digitized. It does everything that is recorded gets converted into 0 / 1 even noise and the very fact that it is there in the signal changes the way the signal is converted. END OF ARGUMENT 

I respect you Richard but, Audio engineering is my life dude. I am not just some guy that makes mics and preamps. I can not spell to save my life and I often do not punctuate my sentences, but I love audio it’s my true passion.

And I have never been into nor will I ever sell something, I don’t think sounds good to my ears. Ps….I do not use Panasonic capsules. 



Chris Church

Dear Chris:

Hey, hold on a minute.  I'm not trying to sell my battery boxes.  And I think your prices are great for preamps, mics, and battery boxes and I wish you all the best in selling them here.  Someone needs to shake stuff up and offer fair prices.

The point I'm trying to make is that IMO the MD preamps are not that bad.  The noise is pretty low, and the distortion is not that bad.  I'll put up some samples later on.  I think, especially for a novice recorder, they are just fine, to get started.  The other thing about MD is most of them have a fair bit of gain *on line input*, so you can even bypass the premp in many cases.  And this is not digitial gain, it is real, analog gain with a very nice user interface.

So, my first recommentation would be:
- for MD, use line in for loud signals, use mic in (low sens) for moderate signals, and adjust the gain at the MD
- for NJB3, Iriver, etc, use an external preamp, like yours
- in  both cases, use a 3-wire battery box.

I'm happy if they buy a three wire battery box, or a three wire battery box + Preamp from you.  That is fine with me.

Believe it or not, I've only sold *one* battery box and *one* set of AT853 mics so far on this list!  I'm trying to sell a second set just now, but in no way are we competing!  I am basically selling off older boxes as I build newer sleeker designs (eg., cutting away the insides of old AT8531 power modules).  And I'm selling mics sometimes 'cause I buy too much stuff on Ebay.

Finally, could you *please* at least space out your writing.  I can hardly read it.

  Richard

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Thanks for your kind words; when I first came on to this board I saw it as a huge opportunity to sell gear! I did not get the real meaning of this board. I do now, I have tried to sell people gear on here, and I do not try to hide it. I spend more time helping people and not trying to sell. In the process I have learned ALOT from people on this board. There are some very smart people here. I still have many things to learn but, I do not like it when people say you do not need a preamp that a battery box is all you need. To that I say BULLSHIT, if that was all you need I would never have sold over 2,000 preamps world wide in the last 2 and half years. I would be selling BATTERY BOXES, hey they are a hell of allot cheaper to make and there is more profit in them then preamps. I really do care about getting people started into taping, if I did not I could have sold 1000 units for 2X as much as I am charging and end up having to do 50% less work then if  I had to do to build 2000 units.. So yes some people think I am just into making sales but that’s not true, I want people to buy my products, But what is  WAY MORE IMPORTAINT is that people LIKE my products and USE my products. Ask some of the people around here, if I find out they are not happy with one of my products, I want to know why and I offer to fix the problem not just ignore them. I am in this game for the long haul, I will make better mics and better preamps, I am sure as time goes on. Once I stop selling so many, I can come up with some new designs. LOL I really do respect you guys here at TS. I have referred allot of customers to you guys for Help. I think there is not too many boards that have this level respect that this place has. Not to mention the fact that the board is set up properly, and that it’s very well run. I don't even know who runs this board but hey you’re doing one hell of a job. My sales have increased because I feel  I have finally earned some of your respect and for that I am grateful I wish when I would have started on this board that instead of trying to make the hard sale. I spent more time earning the respect I feel I am now being shown by some of the members here. I thank you all for helping me out with my business and with my spelling too!

I know I kind of went off on a tangent there but I had some things to say so I said um

Chris Church

+ T to chris church, you guys flame him for soliciting, but he helps ppl out and this is what TS is all about.

chris, your spelling has come a long way, by the way.

good job on everything.  and im not being a dick at all.

thanks chris, i enjoy your insight to the board.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

O K  how   is   that

Hmmmm I think you’re missing the point of my argument. A) My preamp is in fact quieter then the one built into ANY Minidisc recorder B) And it costs as much as MOST people charge for a battery box. I guess that’s got some people upset. But facts are facts, there is a difference, there is less noise in the recording! Thus it’s better to have a preamp that has a better signal to noise ratio then to have one that does not. Also I would love to argue the point of differences of sound quality as I am a sound engineer. But let’s just say that it’s better to get a hot input into any recorder then to ask a crappy built in preamp to amplify the signal. And furthermore its better to NOT to introduce digital attenuation to a signal and to run the line input at 0db not boosting or cutting WHEN EVER POSSIBLE. Ask any real sound engineer like my self they will all say the same thing. Digital attenuation sucks, it’s better to reduce or boost the signal in the analog domain, then to have to quantize the signal even further, adding to the propogational delay and reducing the slew rate of the signal and all that jazz. I could go into in-depth discussion about the facts of audio and using a preamp vs. trying to get gain from a cheap ass md preamp but I would expect you would know the difference, maybe the real problem is my preamp sales are up and your battery box sales are down? I donno, I am not selling snake oil here my preamps do make a difference ask anyone who has one of my new series of preamps, they will all say the same thing it sounds better then just a battery box. Because there is less noise Just because you can not hear the noise does not mean that that noise in the signal is present and does change the way in witch the signal gets digitized. It does everything that is recorded gets converted into 0 / 1 even noise and the very fact that it is there in the signal changes the way the signal is converted. END OF ARGUMENT 

I respect you Richard but, Audio engineering is my life dude. I am not just some guy that makes mics and preamps. I can not spell to save my life and I often do not punctuate my sentences, but I love audio it’s my true passion.

And I have never been into nor will I ever sell something, I don’t think sounds good to my ears. Ps….I do not use Panasonic capsules. 



Chris Church

Dear Chris:

Hey, hold on a minute.  I'm not trying to sell my battery boxes.  And I think your prices are great for preamps, mics, and battery boxes and I wish you all the best in selling them here.  Someone needs to shake stuff up and offer fair prices.

The point I'm trying to make is that IMO the MD preamps are not that bad.  The noise is pretty low, and the distortion is not that bad.  I'll put up some samples later on.  I think, especially for a novice recorder, they are just fine, to get started.  The other thing about MD is most of them have a fair bit of gain *on line input*, so you can even bypass the premp in many cases.  And this is not digitial gain, it is real, analog gain with a very nice user interface.

So, my first recommentation would be:
- for MD, use line in for loud signals, use mic in (low sens) for moderate signals, and adjust the gain at the MD
- for NJB3, Iriver, etc, use an external preamp, like yours
- in  both cases, use a 3-wire battery box.

I'm happy if they buy a three wire battery box, or a three wire battery box + Preamp from you.  That is fine with me.

Believe it or not, I've only sold *one* battery box and *one* set of AT853 mics so far on this list!  I'm trying to sell a second set just now, but in no way are we competing!  I am basically selling off older boxes as I build newer sleeker designs (eg., cutting away the insides of old AT8531 power modules).  And I'm selling mics sometimes 'cause I buy too much stuff on Ebay.

Finally, could you *please* at least space out your writing.  I can hardly read it.

  Richard

[greenone]

I still have many things to learn but, I do not like it when people say you do not need a preamp that a battery box is all you need. To that I say BULLSHIT

Well, it depends on what you mean by NEED. Especially if you're on a tight budget, a battery box will suffice especially if you're taping loud rock shows. Is a preamp desirable, absolutely. But then, so are DPA 4061's - and while I'd like to think I NEED those, that's just not the case.