Topic: TASCAM DR-2d - announced at NAMM

[Todd R]

Ok, joining the thread, since I just joined the team. 

Got my DR2d a couple days ago, haven't got a chance to play with it much, just dinked around recording the stereo.  I need to get the latest firmware and really start learning how to use it.

A couple of repeat questions if folks will bear with me.  I read through this whole thread and every other one I could find on the DR2d before I decided to buy, but I've forgot and don't want to re-read everything.

With the latest firmware, how long of battery life can I expect on a set of AA's?  I use low-discharge NiMH's, which are about 2300mah.

Are people happy using internal AAs or is the general thought that for open taping to be sure and just use an external battery?  If so, what are some recommendations on what external battery to get?

Thanks for the help!  Looking forward to running 4ch off such a small handheld.  Going to have to break out all the cable making gear in the garage and start making some attenuator cables.  Virgin run for it will probably be for Panic at Red Rocks in 10 days.

[Gutbucket]

Welcome to the cool taper club 

With the latest firmware, how long of battery life can I expect on a set of AA's?  I use low-discharge NiMH's, which are about 2300mah.

Are people happy using internal AAs or is the general thought that for open taping to be sure and just use an external battery?  If so, what are some recommendations on what external battery to get?

5+ hours, conservatively. Pretty much on par with the original R-09.

Since I've been using an external batterypack with the DR2d that will go for days on end, I haven't revisited the recording time using only internal AAs now that it has been improved with an firmware update last fall. So I finally ran a test today out of curiosity.

DR2d recordieach time ng 4 channels total, using dual (line) mode (ie: writing two 24bit/48kHz stereo files).
AA batteries used were freshly charged 2400mAh Maha Imedion low self discharge NiMh (~equivalent to Sanyo Eneloop).
Total recording time was just over 7 hrs. Confirmed by checking the resulting file properties in Foobar- Duration: 7:01:30.528 (1213945344 samples)

Since running the test above, I've not felt the need to use an external battery for most gigs.  I've used it about 3 times since and each time came home with more than 50% charge by the meter.  I will use it for extended festivals or all day events since it easily powers the DR2d for days.  The external I've been using is the Energizer XP8000, which is the same size as the recorder and supplies 5V via a USB port (for the DR2d), 9-12V and 16-20V, all simultaneously if needed. It's targeted for netbooks and also funtions as an AC powered supply while charging.  The only quirk is that unlike familiar DVD batteries, it must be turned on before use by pressing the meter-check button (power saving sleep mode).  Needs a custom cable for a tight RA plug to the DR2d, works great.

[bgalizio]

Todd, definitely run a test using your batteries, just to be sure of their performance. You'll probably be alright, but this unit is known to be picky about battery voltage output.

I use my external battery, just because I have one. That way I have nothing to worry about. I like to let my recorder roll the whole time I'm there, though, so it's usually running for quite a while.

It's really nice to have 4 track capabilities in such a small and cheap device, plus the ADC sounds fine to my ears.

[Todd R]

Thanks for the info fellas!

I just got my 16GB card from Newegg yesterday, so looks like it's time to set up a battery test.  Hopefully the internals will work out good.  If so, I still may try to remember to switch battery sets between opener/first set and second set/encore. 4-5 hours per battery set should be good enough for a full night's run though if I forget.

[Todd R]

OK, seeking more info since the first time I run this at a show will be for Panic at RR and they won't have an opener.

I'll be running 4ch into the DR2d and need to get a sense of where my levels should be, esp on the line input.  Don't think I can re-create concert volumes at home to test.

It seems that most people are setting the line at 100, but that seems counter-intuitive since that is max gain (or seemingly minimum attenuation, but I'm not sure if I've seen for sure whether the DR2d applies attenuation only or if it applies gain on the line inputs).

At any rate, here's the detailed set up:

Line in -- my line in path will be Milabs>Lunatec V3> -15db attenuator cable > DR2d.

I'll be running Milabs> V3 (digi) > Sony D50 for my main 2ch rig, and will be shooting for peaks at -6dbFS, though I have an old habit with V3's from my DAT days of running hot, so who knows, peaks may be at -1dbFS or even 0. 

At 0dbFS and using unbalanced outs, the V3 puts out 19dbu, or 16.8dbV.  The DR2d can take a +6dbV signal, so to not overload the DR2d with the worst case signal from the V3, I needed -11db attenuator cables, but I only had the parts on hand for -15db, so that is what got built.

So where should I be setting the DR2d for line levels?  I should be sending it something potentially approaching its max signal of +6dbV so it doesn't seem that I should be setting the gain at 100, though that seems to be the common practice.


If folks want to mess with helping me with initial mic in settings:  I'll be running Charter Oak m900 omnis > Littlebox pre > DR2d.

The DR2d takes a max mic input of -16dbV, which I'd easily go over unless I built another set of attenuator cables, which I did, this time -16db cables.  Even with those, I figure I'd hit the overload point with 10-20db of gain from my littlebox.

So assuming I'll come pretty close to the brickwall point of -16dbV on the mic inputs, where do I want to set my levels on the DR2d mic inputs?  Low gain mic setting of course.

[darby]

I only ran my M10 and DR-2d once simultaneously out of my Littlebox since I have both RCA and 1/8" outs
and ran my M10 at 4 (unity) and my DR-2d at 100 and got the same levels out of both units

the DR-2d crapped out before the next time I needed to use it and I haven't had a chance to run the replacement yet
I plan on running both units in the future until I get accustomed to the DR-2d
I bought it to do SBD/AUD MTXs using the Mic In off the SBD (using Level 65 and Low sensitivity) and the Line In off my Littlebox
so I may need to get attenuators for the SBD input... we'll see

[Will_S]

I'll be running 4ch into the DR2d and need to get a sense of where my levels should be, esp on the line input.  Don't think I can re-create concert volumes at home to test.

Couldn't you just feed it (the V3) a line level input signal and adjust gain accordingly and see what sort of levels it put out?

It seems that most people are setting the line at 100, but that seems counter-intuitive since that is max gain (or seemingly minimum attenuation, but I'm not sure if I've seen for sure whether the DR2d applies attenuation only or if it applies gain on the line inputs).

Empirically, I most often run line it at 100 because with the board feeds I typically get, that gives me levels of -12dB to -6dB.  So there's no point in attenuating a signal like that just to boost it in post.

That said when I do get a hotter than normal board feed I've run line in 90 with no other attenuators and not had any distortion problems, although I keep attenuators with me just in case I get a really hot feed.  Keep in mind the max input for line in is spec'd at +6 dBV and nominal PRO line level is only +4dbu = +2 dbV.  Now granted you can get a hotter than nominal output in some cases (like running a V3 unbalanced out, which is not really what it's designed for) but in practice I generally find MOST but NOT ALL board feeds are far below nominal rather than far above.  Of course I don't tend to go for the loudest genres.

Playing around with the mic in (low sens), I find that I can set input levels as low as 70 or maybe a bit lower without running into distortion (I suspect it may be digital attenuation if you go too much below that), so I would suspect you would be safe down to similar levels line in but don't know for sure - all I know is none of the consumer gear I own can overload the DR2D's line in even at 100.

If folks want to mess with helping me with initial mic in settings:  I'll be running Charter Oak m900 omnis > Littlebox pre > DR2d.

 For something like Railroad Earth (about the loudest I ever tape), running Audix M1290 > Littlebox (no Xformers) > DR2D mic in (low, 70) I'd probably start at 10:00 or so on the LB.  So if you figure out how different the sensitivity of your mics is from mine, and how much louder your shows, you have a starting point. 

The DR2d takes a max mic input of -16dbV, which I'd easily go over unless I built another set of attenuator cables, which I did, this time -16db cables.  Even with those, I figure I'd hit the overload point with 10-20db of gain from my littlebox.

Maybe, but it depends how hot your mics are and how loud your shows.  FWIW, I find that I can feed the mic in (low, 70) of my DR2d from the RCA outs of a consumer DVD player playing a commercial CD with no problem.  Nominal consumer line out is -10 dBV, so maybe the DR2D mic in actually has more headroom than spec'd or maybe the DVD player is set a ways below nominal consumer line level.

And of course, why not just run the Littlebox at lower gain?

I bought it to do SBD/AUD MTXs using the Mic In off the SBD (using Level 65 and Low sensitivity) and the Line In off my Littlebox
so I may need to get attenuators for the SBD input... we'll see

This seems a little backwards to me...unless you have really hot mics I think mic in / low / 70 should work fine for the Littlebox's output at minimum or even moderate gain whereas a SBD could easily be too hot for the mic in without attenuation.  I realize with some preamps folks like to deliberately overdrive their internals to get euphonic distortion, necessitating high gain, but I'm not sure the Littlebox falls into that category so why not just back off the gain a little?

[darby]

I bought it to do SBD/AUD MTXs using the Mic In off the SBD (using Level 65 and Low sensitivity) and the Line In off my Littlebox
so I may need to get attenuators for the SBD input... we'll see

This seems a little backwards to me...unless you have really hot mics I think mic in / low / 70 should work fine for the Littlebox's output at minimum or even moderate gain whereas a SBD could easily be too hot for the mic in without attenuation.  I realize with some preamps folks like to deliberately overdrive their internals to get euphonic distortion, necessitating high gain, but I'm not sure the Littlebox falls into that category so why not just back off the gain a little?

I think it seems a little backwards not being able to control my levels while recording
I can control the Line In with the Littlebox since I can't on the recorder while recording
but I can control the Mic In on the unit while recording
like I said, I may need attenuators... we'll see

EDIT:
we've had this discussion before and I still don't understand why someone wouldn't want to be in control of their input levels

[Will_S]

I bought it to do SBD/AUD MTXs using the Mic In off the SBD (using Level 65 and Low sensitivity) and the Line In off my Littlebox
so I may need to get attenuators for the SBD input... we'll see

This seems a little backwards to me...unless you have really hot mics I think mic in / low / 70 should work fine for the Littlebox's output at minimum or even moderate gain whereas a SBD could easily be too hot for the mic in without attenuation.  I realize with some preamps folks like to deliberately overdrive their internals to get euphonic distortion, necessitating high gain, but I'm not sure the Littlebox falls into that category so why not just back off the gain a little?

I think it seems a little backwards not being able to control my levels while recording
I can control the Line In with the Littlebox since I can't on the recorder while recording
but I can control the Mic In on the unit while recording
like I said, I may need attenuators... we'll see

Hmm, I see your point, but there's not much you can usefully do to control levels if going mic in on a board feed...if 65 is too hot, just turning down the gain on the DR2D is likely just going to give you a distorted recording at lower levels.   Maybe you'd want to turn up the gain a bit for a really low level board feed, but do you really care if your board recording hits full scale on the peaks?

But then I'm not a guy who likes to ride my gain while recording, I'll turn it down if clipping but otherwise don't like to make adjustments during the music. YMMV.

[darby]

when doing SBD/AUD MTXs I don't want a HOT signal from either source since they tend to clip when rendered
I also have a great relation with both my local soundfellas and we can work on the output level from the SBD before the show
I rarely if ever do MTXs anywhere else, so the DR-2d is kinda just something to play with since I gave up on using a 680
if I were serious about doing MTXs alot, I wouldn't be using a Tascam unit

[Todd R]

Thanks again for the replies fellas, esp Will for the detailed response.

In answer to some of the questions, I am just testing out the DR2d and still at this point consider the D50 to be my main recorder.  Plus the D50 takes a digital signal from the V3 so it is just a bit bucket.  The DR2d will be for 4ch recording for me, and this weekend that will mean 4 mic recording with cards and omnis.

I'll be setting my levels on the V3 to get the right recording on the D50, so I don't want to set the V3 levels to match the needs of the DR2d.  The DR2d might be good for consumer gear and seems like it has been ok for many users, but my V3 will put out 16.8dbV, so almost 11dbV more than the line input of the DR2d can take.  Since I'll be running the V3 to set the right levels for the D50, I needed the attenuators for the V3>DR2d line input.

Pretty much the same thing for the LB.  The littlebox has a minimum gain of 6db, and with that gain and my mics, given the -16dbV max mic input of the DR2d, I'll be overloading the DR2d with minimum gain on my LB beginning at 108db of sound pressure.  I think plenty of the shows I go to are above that, esp if you consider real SPLs, not A-weighted SPL measurements.  Truthfully, I think a lot of people are getting into the distortion range of their DR2d's run with external preamps, they're just not hearing it or noticing it in their recordings.  I'd rather run attenuator cables and get away from that possibility. 

On a side note for my use, my LB has output transformers and they have pleasant saturation artifacts as they are run hotter.  Yes, definitely a choice to color the sound using the output transformers, but I'd prefer getting the output of the LB to the ~0dbV range to get more of this transformer saturation.  That also means -16db attenuators make sense, but even still, given the 6db minimum LB gain and max DR2d mic input of -16dbV, I'd need at least -10db attenuator cables to allow SPLs of 118db, which I'd like to be able to accommodate to be on the safe side.

[Todd R]

I've also just done some testing by cranking up some pink noise on my stereo, and also cranking a lovely 1kHz test tone (that will drive you crazy after awhile).  With this cranking, I set up some omnis on my V3 and cranked the gain.

I got the V3 so it was at about a constant -3dbFS on the digital outs, which should be ~14dbV on the analog outputs.  Hooked up the -16db attenuator cables I made from the V3 to the DR2d line inputs on dual mode, with line set to 100.  With the -16db cables, I should have been feeding about a -2dbV signal to the DR2d, or 8dbV below its max of +6dbV.

Just about perfectly, my recording levels for the test tones on the DR2d were about -8db, sometimes -9db.  This looks to me like the +6dbV line input spec is true, and you will get a 0dbFS recording from the DR2d if you set it at 100 and feed it a +6dbV signal.  It also seems to say that the +6dbV is indeed the max line input and the level control supplies attenuation only, not gain (with unity gain setting being 100).

Short of running the V3 on the lower side, it seems like using -11db attenuator cables between a V3 and a DR2d (line input) will insure you never overload the DR2d.

[Will_S]

This looks to me like the +6dbV line input spec is true, and you will get a 0dbFS recording from the DR2d if you set it at 100 and feed it a +6dbV signal.  It also seems to say that the +6dbV is indeed the max line input and the level control supplies attenuation only, not gain (with unity gain setting being 100).

Hmmm, thanks for the extra info but something doesn't quite seem to add up.  I'm just now recording a commercial CD via the RCA outs of my cheapo JVC DVD player, which I would assume is at consumer line level or below, i.e. -10dBV.  So that should give me -16 dbFS at line in / 100 if +6dBV gives you 0 dbFS at line in / 100. But it's giving me peaks of -3 dBFS at line in / 100.  Maybe my consumer DVD player runs hotter than I think, maybe our units are different, maybe it's an imedance issue, maybe...
 

EDIT:
we've had this discussion before and I still don't understand why someone wouldn't want to be in control of their input levels

Just see don't much need for it if it requires attenuators that wouldn't be needed in the chain otherwise.  Especially if you can work with the FOH before the show starts, and you are setting levels conservatively because you want headroom for mixing in post.   I just don't see the need for level adjustments on the fly in that situation.  But whatever works for you.

[Todd R]

I wouldn't necessarily trust the nominal outputs of consumer gear to be that precise.  I do personally trust the specs of Grace products, they seem to be built and marketed at a very professional level.

Even still, you're tests seem to be right in the same ballpark as mine, though they are not exact. 

[Will_S]

I wouldn't necessarily trust the nominal outputs of consumer gear to be that precise.  I do personally trust the specs of Grace products, they seem to be built and marketed at a very professional level.

Even still, you're tests seem to be right in the same ballpark as mine, though they are not exact.

I suppose so, if you call 13 dB the same ballpark.  But again if my DVD player is really putting out a +3dBV signal, seems like the distortion at mic in / low / 70 should be quite audible.  I really don't hear it.  And it "should" be 19 dB too hot!  I have to think there's an impedance issue here we're missing.

Strike this last part, and I have to amend some of my earlier statements about mic in 70 matching line in 100, or not distorting.  I thought I recalled as much from before, but just double checked and the same CD that was hitting -3dB at line in 100 was clipping at mic in/70 and knocking it back to mic in / 65 gave audible distortion and flattened waveforms maxing out at ~-3 or -4 dbFS.  "Audible", but it doesn't sound or look like something that's 19 dB too hot.

Edit:  This is what I mean by not "looking" 19 dB too hot.  Top is line in/100, bottom is mic in / 65. 

http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/LineVsMic.jpg

Note that the waveforms are ~identical wherever the mic in doesn't go above -6 dB or so.  This suggests the signal was no more than 6 dB too hot, which would make sense for a -10dbV signal into a -16dbV max input.

I think the reason I had mic in 70 stuck in my head is that that is what I found to be the point where I didn't get brickwalling like this.  So I'd recommend against running mic in at less than 70, and any signal that requires reducing gain below that is too hot.