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Ceiling Mount Considerations?

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HealthCov Chris:
I am permanently mounting a matched pair of mics to the rafters in one of my local venues.  There is already a pair centered (DIN) about 35' off stage, but due to the low ceilings they get too much chatter.

The venue has low ceilings (approx. 15'), is basic rectangle with capacity of approx. 500, and the rafter to hang the mics is approx. 6' from the speaker.  Recording from the back is not a quality option.  I frequently have onstage pair with sbd, but many bands don't allow sbd, so I want to keep a pair in the rafters directly in front of the speakers to get the cleanest recordings with minimal chatter.  Does anyone have experience and/or specific suggestions regarding the location/position, etc. of the mics before I hang them?  Here is a couple pics of the venue/stage area to hang the mics.  I assume the best area is between the mirror ball and the first light module.

Gutbucket:
A wide pair with each microphone hanging directly in front of each PA speaker, up at the same height as the PA speakers are above the floor.

Small omnis work great for this for a few reasons: They will be easiest to hang and manage over time as they needn't point directly toward the speakers, they are most likely to sound natural with a flat extended and open response, and from that close but high position they should get a very good balance of clear PA sound dominating over the enthusiastically engaged up-front audience, even with way too much disengaged audience chatter happening pretty much everywhere else.  This will sound very much like a direct SBD feed with a touch of ambiance in it.

The question that remains is which cross-beam to hang them from. The closest one with lights and mirror ball looks to be a bit too close.  The second one back could be perfect but might be a bit far if the room is super chatty even up front.  Ideal is likely halfway between the two, but that's not likely to be practical.  Try both positions if you have the access to do it, which is the only way to really know for sure.

If omnis at the first beam are too close, yet turn out to be too far away at the second beam, subcards (maybe even cardioids) from the second beam could be just right, but then you'd need to keep them oriented correctly, both vertically and horizontally, which is a lot more hassle than simply hanging a pair of omnis from their own cables.  Give the omnis a go first.

voltronic:
I don't have specific experience doing this, but I have a couple thoughts that may or may not be helpful:

1. Be careful of proximity to the projector, which I imagine gets used during shows. Ones used in large venues often have loud cooling fans. I found that if the hard way once when recording from a balcony.

2. How low can you mount your mics without interfering with said projector, if you're mounting them between there and the stage? Because I'm thinking of avoiding strong early reflections from the ceiling, and you probably don't want your mics behind the projector because of the potential noise. You want that noise source in the mics' rear nulls if possible. Some may recommend using hypers to avoid the ceiling reflections, but the rear null will not be as deep as cardioids so there's a trade-off.

3. Mounting an array this close to the stage means you'll need to aim your mics quite wide to capture the PA properly. Two ideas come to mind for that: a "hybrid" NOS of 30 cm but with a 110° angle, or an array I've had a lot of success with recently (for acoustic recording, mind you) - the Gerzon at 120° with only a 5 cm capsule spacing. This one allows you to easily add more spaciousness in post if you choose.

4. I just saw Gutbucket's reply about omnis. I would not have thought to recommend them because of the aforementioned audience chatter, but they could actually work great here for reasons he details. It would certainly be easier to set up than the near coincident setups I've described.

Gutbucket:
Yeah, wide omnis in front of each speaker for several of reasons:

It gets the mics closer to the PA speakers.  Each will be directly on-axis and have good close proximity to each speaker.  That makes it like a stack tape, or rather a stereo stack tape of both stacks, and a perfect substitute for a soundboard patch when one is not available.  Depending on the PA speakers, better than a stack tape.  Most of the time I'd take it over a soundboard patch any day.

Excellent balance between direct-PA-and-on-stage-sound versus reverberent-room-and-audience-sound.  Physical location of the microphones on axis and significantly closer to the PA speakers on either side than all other sources of sound are part of this.  But also, as long as each mic is the same distance from the speaker on its side, in addition to being clear and dryish, what is picked up from the PA will retain high phase correlation - much like what one gets from a board feed or on-stage coincident pair, while pickup of room and audience sound will be highly de-corellated.  That means reverberance of the room and any specific audience voices will have significant phase, timing and level  differences between channels.  That makes the room sound better, bigger, more open, even if it doesn't when there in person, and will tend to make the perception of any individual annoying audience members which can still be heard over the music more diffuse, and a lot less direct, clearly understood and in your face.  Projector noise will also be be farther away, and likely to only be significant for quiet performances with a quiet audiences.

Easy to rig.. except for the ladder climbing that needs to be done regardless. Just hang them. no pointing needed, no worries of twisting or changing orientation over time.

Proven to sound great in other similar places.

Will mix well with whatever other mics you may want to use, but you probably don't need those unless you want to include them.  If so this pair should make for an excellent foundation of the mix.

Chanher:
EDIT: gutbucket posted more while I was writing this, but yes, what he said.


--- Quote from: Gutbucket on December 27, 2023, 04:35:50 PM ---A wide pair with each microphone hanging directly in front of each PA speaker, up at the same height as the PA speakers are above the floor.

Small omnis work great for this for a few reasons
--- End quote ---

This is something I've always wanted to try, and it's based on numerous recordings I recall that sounded sooo good to me. The closeness to the PA speakers provided an upfront "soundboard" feel and clarity but using the (very widely) spaced omni's simultaneously provided huge soundstage and a wonderful ambience/room feel. It might feel counterintuitive to use omni's since one of your goals is to eliminate chattiness but I think you will be surprised at the results.

I've curiously followed people using spread cardioid's and I will admit I found the results to be better than I expected; I'm sure it's violating numerous stereo recording principles but I personally wouldn't hesitate to at least try cardioid mics mounted directly in front of each PA speaker. Ideally you would mount mics that have interchangeable capsules and you could try both omni's and cards. If anyone wants to provide the reasons spread cardioids are a bad idea I'm certainly open to hearing them.

I don't think you could go wrong with mounting a near-coincident pair in the center BUT as Voltronic states, you could be interfering with the projector and/or picking up the cooling fan of said projector. If you find a way to avoid the projector and it's potential problems, I like Voltronic's suggestion of some kind of NOS. Nice and wide to get the PA speakers but it would still pick up a little of the stage amps/drums which IME is usually (but not always) a good thing. If we're getting greedy then you could do a 3-mic mount with an extra wide set of directional mics aimed at the PA speakers with a center directional mic aimed at the stage and picking up drums and amps directly from the musicians themselves.

If I ever get a chance to permanently mount in a venue, I'm definitely gonna try omni's directly in front of each PA speaker.

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