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Author Topic: help deciding on recorder....660?  (Read 2964 times)

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Offline crossthreaded

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help deciding on recorder....660?
« on: February 04, 2008, 10:00:35 PM »
I had posted a yard sale ad lookin for a 660 and some other gear, i got some pm's but only for modded 660's or for a 671. 

and someone posted saying that the 660 sucks unless it's modded.

I've seen some decent deals on ebay the past couple weeks and was just wondering if I'm getting ready to buy a piece of shit recorder.  I don't mind spending 4-500 on a used recorder, I just don't want to get it and have it suck.

is there another entry level recorder I should look at instead?  (please include manufacturer names with model numbers..i'm new to all of this and google doesn't like searches for numbers)


oh and I'm prob going to be recording with c4's at panic shows and local rock and bluegrass shows

thanks for any help
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Offline spcyrfc

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2008, 10:06:20 PM »
a modded 660 is great for recording shows of all sorts of db level. unmodded, i doubt it would be able to hold its own without a preamp in front.  If you get a 660, buy used/new and get it modded by Busman (lots of info on this site about his great work) or buy direct from www.oade.com and get the song catcher mod or one of the other mods they offer.

Oade will be more expensive.  in order to get a unit modded by them, you have to buy direct from them.
both oade and busman have excellent reputations on this site.

also consider the Fostex fr2le.

ive run both and both are great. the most apparent difference is 16 bit on the 660 and 24 bit on the fr2le.
cant go wrong.  tape away

*edit* the ACM in the yard sale would work well.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 10:08:11 PM by spcyrfc »
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2008, 10:13:11 PM »
You will not be happy recording concerts with a stock Marantz recorder. I learned this the hard way...with recordings that had distortion from the stock preamps.

The mods from Oade, Busman et al... change the analog input circuitry to allow for high SPL handling and high quality audio capture. It is worth every dime of the cost of the mods. It really does put the recorders in a different league than the stock units (and makes them actually viable for what the manufacturers sell them for in the first place).

I'm happy with my Busman 670 and I'm only selling it to fund the Busman upgrades to my R4.
A modded all in one recorder gets you started immediately without all the fuss of seperate preamp, A/D converter and necessary cabling and batteries. I wish I had done it when I first started.

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Offline crossthreaded

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2008, 10:23:32 PM »
yeah I'm starting to understand alot more about what all of this means and realize that I won't be happy with the stock 660.


basically about 3 weeks ago I decided I wanted to start taping shows, and am still learning/reading trying to get it all figured out.

I'll check into that fostex, but I haven't found any used ones so far....

I read alot of reviews about the mods and what is actually involved in it and it makes sense.
I think I would want to do get a 24bit recorder just so I could keep the quality up, I assume thats called "lossless"

do the C4's seem like they will be decent for a startup mic?

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Offline spcyrfc

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 11:02:50 PM »
yeah I'm starting to understand alot more about what all of this means and realize that I won't be happy with the stock 660.


basically about 3 weeks ago I decided I wanted to start taping shows, and am still learning/reading trying to get it all figured out.

I'll check into that fostex, but I haven't found any used ones so far....

I read alot of reviews about the mods and what is actually involved in it and it makes sense.
I think I would want to do get a 24bit recorder just so I could keep the quality up, I assume thats called "lossless"

do the C4's seem like they will be decent for a startup mic?



i dont know much about the c-4's, but the peluso's seem to be about in the same price range and they are highly lauded on this side (ive never run them).

with regards to 24bit vs 16 bit... 24 bit, many will say is the future.  although playback is not yet up to that quality, it will be in due time.  on the other hand, i just made the switch to 24 bit and have loved every 16bit tape ive made over the past 4.5 years.  both record in PCM, which is lossless.  24 bit gives you 8 more bits, whatever that means. 

regardless of the bit rate, alot of the end result will depend on microphone placement.  i hold my recordings up to Django's recordings.  Django (among others) is listenable now and if i can pull recordings now that will be as his are after 60 years, i will be happy and hopefully so will my kids if i ever have them.
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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 11:59:19 PM »


I'll check into that fostex, but I haven't found any used ones so far....

Fairly new unit - might be a bit before they really start turning up used with any frequency...

Offline crossthreaded

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2008, 10:30:18 PM »
I think i'm probably going to go with the 670 and a set of c4's.


does this sound like a solid startup system for someone that is new to this?
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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2008, 11:07:30 PM »
I think i'm probably going to go with the 670 and a set of c4's.


does this sound like a solid startup system for someone that is new to this?
:coolguy:
C4's are nice mics to start and you get great results w/ omni and card caps to paly with. The Peluso's are more scratch and some thing you might want to step up to after you get the upgrade bug.
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stevetoney

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2008, 11:25:02 PM »
I think i'm probably going to go with the 670 and a set of c4's.


does this sound like a solid startup system for someone that is new to this?

My opinion is that you'll get really nice sounding recordings that you'll enjoy with this rig.  The C-4s are a good starter mic.  Actaully someone mentioned Peluso's and those are about double the cost of a set of C-4's.  What I think about gear is that there's kinda a law of diminishing returns.  Yeah, a $1000 set of mics generally sounds better than what you'll be running with your C-4's but are they THAT much better.  Well that's something you'll end up deciding for yourself over time.  Some people are just as happy to stick with their $300 mics...others get the upgrade bug after awhile.  The important thing though is that either way, you'll be pulling some nice sounding recordings with the rig you're contemplating.

16 bit vs. 24 bit.  I was a skeptic at first.  I've owned both the 660 and the Fr2-LE.  I've personally become a 24bit believer.  True, there's really no place to listen to the 24bit recordings after you get them, other than your computer, so in order to listen universally (say in your car or wherever) you end up saving the 24 bit files onto a DVD-R for the future and then dithering the 24bit recording back down to 16 bit for converting onto CDs.  

Having said this though, 24bit really does sound better.  There's just a more natural sound to it.  It's more realisitic and more true to the performance, which is frankly what most of us are after when we go out and record.  Yes, it may be awhile before we can burn 24 files onto some portable media and play it in the car, but those days are coming.

By the way, 16 vs 24 bit...those extra 8 bits are huge!!!  I'm not sure I can explain this well, but the information carried in 24 bit is exponentially greater than 16 bit...not just a mere multiple.  Someone explained it that if 16 bit has thousands of bits of informatin, the 24 bit has millions.  I don't know if that's an accurate ratio, but you get the point.  That extra detail is what makes the sound come out more realistic on 24bit recordings.

The best thing to do though is listen for yourself.  Go to archive.org and download several of the same song files from a show that is uploaded in both 16 and 24 bit.  See for yourself what your ears tell you.  You might not hear as much a difference as I do, so it might not be as big a deal for you.

Finally, you mentioned that you'll be getting a 670.  In that case, your questions about the modded 660 or the FR2-LE are moot.  However, I am also in the camp that you are best to buy a stock model and have it modded by Busman.  He does great mods that sound great.

Incidently, the stock boxes are great for what they're designed to do...field recording of stuff.  For example, news reporters use these digital recorders alot for recording interviews and such.  The problem for us music recorders is that the features of these digital recorders are fantastic, but the preamps tend not to be the best for recording live music.  They're noisy, unclean and don't have the output characteristics (frequency response and such) to convey the music very nicely.  So that's why you're gettting pretty much a universal response from this group that the modded units are really necessary for recording live shows.

Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 11:27:13 PM by tonedeaf »

Offline crossthreaded

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2008, 11:35:45 PM »
the 670 i'm thinking of getting has a busman preamp upgrade on it.  I feel like it is a pretty good deal.

I download most of the shows off digitalpanic, and usually get the 24 bit of the shows i thought were really rocking b/c I think they sound better.


however I don't want to dump a whole pile of money into this right off the bat becuase I might hate it and sell the gear a couple months from now.  it won't be the first hobby to fizzle out for me.


i just know that I see a lot of shows that I would like to be able to listen to later.  so i think I would like to start recording them
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stevetoney

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 07:49:53 AM »
the 670 i'm thinking of getting has a busman preamp upgrade on it.  I feel like it is a pretty good deal.

The 670 on the yard sale is an incredible deal!

Offline flintstone

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Re: help deciding on recorder....660?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 09:22:38 AM »
One reason to pass on the Marantz PMD670 is that it uses battery power faster than newer models, like the PMD671.  The four internal AA cells run down very quickly.  My experience is that standard AAs are lucky to last more than 2 hours.  The PMD671 lasts close to 4 hours on the same 4 AAs.  You can power the PMD670 from a 12V external battery if you need longer run times.

Recording WAV format, the PMD670 tops out at 16/48.  The PMD671 records up to 24/96.  There are advantages to 24 bit recording.

A good source for Marantz products is http://www.martelelectronics.com  Last time I checked, they offered the PMD671 for about $700.

Flintstone

 

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