Topic: Hi everyone! I'm my band's A/V guy. I have a question for you all...

[Ardge]

My band is currently reuniting after a 4 year hiatus.  I joined them in '97 and in '04, we took time off for other things.  (kids, school, marriage, etc.)  I've always considered them my band mates, but we just needed a break.  Well, after seeing our guitarist kick major a$$ with his current cover band, we decided to reunite to record all of our unfinished material, play some shows and write lots more music.  We all have ideas that need the band's involvement to get finished.  That said, I've always been the band's A/V guy.  When I joined the band, I upgraded their tape deck recorder to my portable MD recorder.  I recorded every single practice and show with my Sony MZ-R37 MD Walkman and Sony ECM-MS907 microphone.  With the mic positioned correctly in our practice spot, the mix and sound I got in our recordings was absolutely astounding.  I still remember my band mate's faces when they first heard the sonic quality of the MD playback.  It was light years better than their old cassette tape way. 

I've always been a gadget guy.  I mean, I buy technology before any of my friends.  I had a home theater before it was trendy.  I had a LaserDisc player in that home theater.  I have 2 MD decks.  I've been a Sirius subscriber a year before Howard moved there.  Yes, I have an iPhone.  I love gadgets.  My next purchase is going to be a portable digital recorder.  Through reading reviews, I have decided that the Edirol R-09HR is going to be my choice.  I've never heard or worked with this type of technology.  How much better can I expect my band's recordings to be once I upgrade from MD to the Edirol?  I know for sure that making CDs for everyone will be easier now.  Converting MD to MP3 was a headache.  The Edirol process (or any digital recorder's process for that matter) seems too easy to believe. 

I guess I will sum up my first post with saying that I am very excited about my upcoming purchase and I want to hear from some people who will confirm my suspicions that the Edirol will knock my ears off of my head in a good way.

Thanks for reading.

RJ

[sunjan]

Through reading reviews, I have decided that the Edirol R-09HR is going to be my choice.  I've never heard or worked with this type of technology.  How much better can I expect my band's recordings to be once I upgrade from MD to the Edirol? 

Good luck with the R-09HR. It's pretty new, so do post your experiences here. It'll be interesting to read about your first-hand opinion, and see how it takes to wear and tear...

And yes, lossless is the way to go! You'll never look back! Consider taping with the highest bitrate and frequency, which gives much more tolerance for editing in post!

/J

[Liquid Drum]

The Edirol is the way to go for easy transfer and recording. I used to use MD myself and while I did like it very much, when I switched to the R-09 is was so much easier to record.

You most likely will not get a better sound unless you upgrade your mic. You will most likely get a slight boost in sound quality by recording in 24bit but your mics can only capture what they capture (if you know what I mean).

Anyways, go for the edirol. It'll make things easier for sure.

[Ardge]

Thanks for the replies guys! 

Upgrading my recording microphone is a feasible option for me.  However, how do I know what mic will do me and my band justice?  Any samples I've ever heard recorded on an Edirol are unlike the music I create with my band.  The samples I've heard are like a jazz quartet or some spoken word performance.  My band is loud and powerful.  My bassist plays a 4 string, but uses harmonizers and plays through an SVT.  He's a wall of tone.  My guitar player has alot of crunch but also uses acoustic in his guitar sound.  Most of his guitars have that pizzio pickup.  My singer has an incredible range and just sounds awesome in front of a powerful band.  (We've been described as a heavier and more atmospheric Cranberries.)  We're loud at practice, but we're not like crazy LOUD!  Our PA is just for vocals and monitors at practice.  I'm a heavy hitting drummer like Deen Castronovo but also posses the subtlety of a Stewart Copeland.  I've never lost any of the nuances of my cymbal work with my ECM-M907.  My bass drums always sounds punchy and deep with the 907 too. 

What mic would just make the Edirol just plain out rule and handle such a loud environment? 

Like I said guys, the furthest I've ever gone in digital recording is my MD WALKMAN.  I'm greener than an unripe banana.  Thanks for any and all replies.   

RJ

[Scooter]

This is what I would do...

Get the Edirol recorder and use it with your existing mic and just see what you get.  If it pleases you, then fine.  If your mic, or the recorder is brickwalling, then you might think about upgrading. 

There are some better quality large diaphragm single point stereo mics (studio projects, Audio Technica etc.) out there (can't remember the model #'s).  If you go this route, you may or may not need a preamp to go between the mic and the recorder (edirol ua-5, mp-2 etc.).

There no reason you can't just upgrade in steps.  Just get a new piece for the rig as needed, or as can be afforded .

Also, telling us your budget might help with suggestions too.

Or go whole hog and get an Edriol R-4 and stereo mic, so you can pull matrix's(soundboard 2chan, and 2chan stereo mic) and mix those down in post .

[Ardge]

I'm not afraid to spend money, but I don't want to throw money around like it doesn't mean anything.  (I have tons of bills including a wedding in 80 some days.)  If the r-09hr is going to be about $400-$500, I want to keep my mic upgrade to about the $300 range.  Years ago, my 907 cost around $100.  At the time, it was THEE mic to get for MD recording.  It served me well.  I have no problem investing in quality equipment.  I just need some advice because this is all new territory to me. 

Mics and preamps.....  I'm clueless.  I have a killer set of drum mics (Sure Betas and Sen 504s) but as far as mics for this new recorder, I haven't the slightest idea what even to look for.

Thanks again for your help and reply.

RJ

[odartman]

And another gear slut is born

[Ardge]

And another gear slut is born

Why the name calling?  I don't understand nor appreciate it. 

[rowjimmytour]

I'm not afraid to spend money, but I don't want to throw money around like it doesn't mean anything.  (I have tons of bills including a wedding in 80 some days.)  If the r-09hr is going to be about $400-$500, I want to keep my mic upgrade to about the $300 range.  Years ago, my 907 cost around $100.  At the time, it was THEE mic to get for MD recording.  It served me well.  I have no problem investing in quality equipment.  I just need some advice because this is all new territory to me. 

Mics and preamps.....  I'm clueless.  I have a killer set of drum mics (Sure Betas and Sen 504s) but as far as mics for this new recorder, I haven't the slightest idea what even to look for.

Thanks again for your help and reply.

RJ

Are most of your recordings at home or in a studio where you have access to power? If so could you record on a computer or even a laptop that you might already have and put that $800 or so on some decent mics. Your tapes are only as good as what you have to capture them w/ so this is about the best bang for your $$.

And another gear slut is born

Why the name calling?  I don't understand nor appreciate it. 

No name calling here its just the fact that this hobby is like the song Hotel California and that you can check out any time but you can never leave

[Ardge]

Are most of your recordings at home or in a studio where you have access to power? If so could you record on a computer or even a laptop that you might already have and put that $800 or so on some decent mics. Your tapes are only as good as what you have to capture them w/ so this is about the best bang for your $$.

My recordings have always been done in a rehearsal room, absent of any computers.  The only recording device in the rehearsal room is what I bring with me.  Since I plan to be done with the pain in the butt MiniDisc route, I set my eyes on the R-09HR.  That said, this R-09HR investment is all being done for documentation and writing purposes only.  Like I said earlier in my above posts, there isn't a note my band plays that I am not recording.  Studio time is only planned when our stuff is together and ready to be recorded professionally.  Oh the memories..... or nightmares rather.  We recorded a 12 song CD in 1999 that nearly put us all in the poor house.  The mix is so bad, I NEVER play it for anyone either.  Our engineer / producer / mixer royally screwed us.

Maybe I'll wait and see how the HR records before I buy a microphone.  Who knows?  It could be light years ahead of my current MD recordings; recordings that completly impress me to this day.  I just hate working with the MDs.

RJ

[TNJazz]

And another gear slut is born

Why the name calling?  I don't understand nor appreciate it. 

It's not an insult, it's a compliment.  We're all gear sluts here.  Welcome to the club.   

BTW, I agree with Scooter.  Try the R-09 with your 907 and see how you like it before you make another jump.

[Brian Skalinder]

BTW, I agree with Scooter.  Try the R-09 with your 907 and see how you like it before you make another jump.

FWIW, I agree with this approach.  If you liked the mic before, you'll probably like the mic now.  Give it a go.  Enjoy the easier transferring of the R09 and decide after a while whether you want to change up the mic or not.

[capnhook]

I agree, gents......but, can the R-09 supply enough gain for the 907?  I put my old Church Audio fixed-gain 9 volt preamp between the 907 and D8 (line in) I use, with great results.

 





_{edit for clarification}

[SmokinJoe]

I agree, gents......but, can the R-09 supply enough gain for the 907?  I put my old Church Audio fixed-gain 9 volt preamp between the 907 and D8 I use, with great results.

 

I expect that is not a problem.  I expect he can run line-in with enough gain.  If not, he might have to go mic-in, but my R-09 has a ton of available gain, and I expect the new one is similar.

[Ardge]

Digital recorder noob here ~  What's a preamp in terms of a digital recorder?  How come I never needed one for my MD recorder? 

...and when the F can I get ahold of an R-09HR? 

RJ

[SmokinJoe]

In general, microphones put out very small voltages (measured in one-thousandths of a volt).  To get this tiny voltage recorded requires 4 things:
- a power supply to power the mics (in your case the 907 has a battery, but others need power from the preamp)
- amplification from millivolts to around 1 volt (the preamp)
- an analog to digital converter
- storing the digital data to media (mini disk/flash card/hard drive).

Your mini-disk recorder, and the R-09 have all these steps built in, which is convenient, and actually these devices do a pretty good job of all three steps.  But space is tight in those little recorders, and ultimately design engineers need to make some compromises.  In our quest towards the perfect recordings, many people feel that the quality of the recording improves as you replace these stages with external pieces of gear, which probably don't have some of those design compromises.

Whether it's worth the expense and bulkiness of external gear is up to the individual.  I think in your case it probably isn't a concern at this point.  The R-09HR is a good piece of gear.

I don't think the R-09HR is available yet.  It's a brand new piece of gear. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/R09HR/ says
It's Arriving Soon! We've confirmed this item will ship soon from Edirol and should arrive in our warehouse the week of 6/08. Go ahead, place your order now. We will ship it immediately, the very same day we receive it from Edirol.

[Ardge]

Thank you SJ.  I understand now. 

RJ

[jacobmyers]

<snip>
Whether it's worth the expense and bulkiness of external gear is up to the individual.  I think in your case it probably isn't a concern at this point.  The R-09HR is a good piece of gear.

I don't think the R-09HR is available yet.  It's a brand new piece of gear. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/R09HR/ says
It's Arriving Soon! We've confirmed this item will ship soon from Edirol and should arrive in our warehouse the week of 6/08. Go ahead, place your order now. We will ship it immediately, the very same day we receive it from Edirol.

 That's a good  (and succinct) description of the digital signal path (and why improvements on "prosumer" gear are often necessary), Joe. The compromises, at least in MiniDisc gear (which I have years of experience with), seem to be all about size and unit cost (smaller being "better" in both respects). I used a lot of MD gear because it was cheap (second-hand). The sound quality was never what I'd call "good" (though it's certainly "good enough for rehearsal" or "good enough for a demo"). The gear itself was finicky and not at all robust (which is why I went through "a lot" of it). Thankfully, solid-state devices are now available that are affordable and a more-than-adequate replacement (actually, a considerable upgrade) for my MD gear. Edirol, FWIW, doesn't make any of the gear I'm considering at this time.

 Once you start talking about upgrading the microphone (a <u>very</u> important upgrade, considering my personal experience with the MS907), every "R-09" that Edirol makes (and pretty much every "bargain" EEPROM recorder) is completely inadequate. The preamps are going to be a little more noisy simply because they're unbalanced. And plugging an XLR mike into a 1/8" jack is, frankly, as silly as circumventing the grounding lead on a wall plug. That said; I've DONE the XLR > 1/8" thing and it seems to raise the noise floor quite a bit when compared to the same microphone into XLR. The real question here is "is it worth the expense to buy a higher-quality recorder than Edirol's R-09xx?"

 Ardge - FWIW, after years of using MD equipment myself, I wouldn't even consider buying another recorder with a single 1/8" TRS microphone input. But that's just my two cents.

[Ardge]

Ardge - FWIW, after years of using MD equipment myself, I wouldn't even consider buying another recorder with a single 1/8" TRS microphone input. But that's just my two cents.

What options to I have?  The DR-1?  I've heard that that unit is very "glitchy." 

Thanks for your response.

RJ

[sunjan]

Ardge - FWIW, after years of using MD equipment myself, I wouldn't even consider buying another recorder with a single 1/8" TRS microphone input. But that's just my two cents.

What options to I have?  The DR-1?  I've heard that that unit is very "glitchy." 

If you go the high-end route that Jacob is pointing out, we're talking about an entirely different universe.

As SmokinJoe pointed out: if you don't plan on stealthing, and have access to AC, there's no need to restrict yourself to ultra-portable all-in-one gear.

You could get the whole hog:
a set of open mics with XLR connectors (maybe starting from $150 for a pair)
+ one of the larger/non-stealthable units like FR2-LE, R-44, 660/671, that would be more versatile and sturdy

How does that sound?

Or maybe I'm missing the point why you have to stick to a small all-in-one unit?

[jacobmyers]

What options to I have?  The DR-1?  I've heard that that unit is very "glitchy." 

Thanks for your response.

RJ

 With the DR-1, you have the same problem as with the R-09; the 1/8" input. The Zoom H4 is, AFAIK, the bottom end of the XLR-bearing compact digital recorders, at ~$300. I have used Zoom equipment before and won't make the mistake again. If you have access to AC power while you're recording (and it would seem that you do), and your budget is <$400, Fostex's MR8-HD (or MR8-Mk.II with a few memory cards) could be a fine choice.

 The MR8-HD's headphone amp (like many built-in headphone amps on multitrack recorders) is deceptively noisy when you're pushing the gain (to hear "what you're recording" over ambient sound with poorly isolated headphones, for instance). The sound that's being recorded isn't as noisy as what you'd hear on the headphones. That's not to say that the preamps of this machine aren't a little noisy (because they are if you're pushing them to make up for low-gain microphones). Phantom power on this machine requires navigation of the software menus (instead of a hardware switch) and that took some getting used to.

 That said, I've captured many acceptable recordings using one of these machines. The MR8 can record four tracks simultaneously, which means that you can do SBD/AUD matrix recordings (which, if well-engineered, can certainly sound "better than being there"). It's also an "eight track" recorder, so it can help to keep you out of the "poor house" if you want to produce your own demo CD. Engineering methods that circumvent the limitations of the MR8 recorders are a matter for another thread (and may be outside the realm of this forum).

 If you "must" have something "small, simple, and battery-powered", as I must, the PMD660 (as sunjan mentioned) can be found in "stock" trim for under $300 if you're willing to buy a used one. Oade Brothers and Busman Audio both do modifications to these machines that improve the sound quality of the preamp stage from "decent" (as stock) to "impressive" (as modified). I haven't used one personally, yet, but the PMD660 is what I'll be upgrading to. I've abandoned multi-track recording (for philosophical reasons) but have been known to mix stuff that other people have recorded if they ask me politely (or if I played on the recording). 

 If you "must" have 24-bit (24/96), which is another thing I've forsworn (mostly because the majority of my recordings are still destined for CD), the sky (or an arm and a leg) really is the limit. I mean; a "decent" machine (FR2-LE, PMD-671) would eat much of your entire budget ($800) and a "really good" machine can set you back $3k. This is what I presume that sunjan meant when writing that portable "pro" recorders are "an entirely different universe". Whatever you choose, RJ, Good Luck!

[rastasean]

How much better can I expect my band's recordings to be once I upgrade from MD to the Edirol? 

you can only expect the recording to be as good as their/your playing. i've heard crappy recordings from nice recorders only because the music sucked. make sure you're playing something good and you're on the right track.

[SmokinJoe]

Where are you located?  You might be able to get someone to stop over to one of your practice sessions with some gear so you can hear their gear and your gear, and make you own decisions.  I think sometimes these forums do more to confuse people than they help them.  A lot of different people have different opinions, which contradict other peoples opinions, including my own.

With respect to the question How much better can I expect my band's recordings to be once I upgrade from MD to the Edirol? It will be an improvement, but I expect you will secretly say to yourself "Gee, I just spent $400 for this, and I was expecting more improvement than what I got".  The R-09 is a good piece of gear, and the R-09HR should be at least as good.  But the Sony MD isn't junk either.  If the MD is a hassle and you want a new recorder, then that's fine, but don't be surprised if you don't see an enormous improvement in sound quality.

I think you will see your biggest improvement when you upgrade your mics.

[Scooter]

getting away from the compression of the MD, and the typically analog transfers as opposed to digi that usually comes with MD, are a def improvement.  And like stated above, better mics will get you an improvement as well.