Topic: Edirol R-09 input woes

[Gutbucket]

..some close ups of the top of the board:

[Church-Audio]

Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. 

Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:

Ok what I would do is get 15 minute epoxy not 5 minute you want something with a long cure time. You have to epoxy this in two stages. First stage try and get some of the epoxy under the jack and all the way around it on the circuit board. Make sure none gets inside the jack use a tooth pick for applying it and a thin piece of paper to get it under the jack as much as possible. Remember less is more. Take your time and be careful. Then after that's done. Then get some clear tape like scotch tape and apply it to the parts that have the gold contacts seen through the top of the plastic jack make these as small as possible to provide a good seal. After the first layer of epoxy has dried give it at least 2 hours to cure. Then gently apply epoxy to the top and sides of the jack on the circuit board this will make sure that the jack does not move again use a tooth pick. One word of caution this will void the living hell out of your warranty. And make future repairs for this unit very difficult but if this is done right it will work. The other method that could be done is to put in a second line input jack that has a nut on it drill a hole thru the case and use fine wire to attach off of the pcb connections again I must stress this would be very difficult but it would guarantee that the jack that's on the pcb never gets damaged.

Chris

[Gutbucket]

..and the bottom.  You can see the un-utilized input jack mounting holes in these photos:

[Church-Audio]

..and the bottom.  You can see the un-utilized input jack mounting holes in these photos:

Wow see the holes thru the circuit board lol... That are right on top of the jacks, they are supposed to have plastic pins that go from the input jacks thru the board because they are not there every time you plug into the jack you are pushing the jack backwards this will eventually fail again lol.. This design sucks shit, I use switchcraft jacks in my preamp that have the plastic pins go thru the circuit board to avoid this problem. What has happened here is that Roland got stuck with a bunch of parts that are substandard and they have decided to use them! Not good. They should have contacted the company that makes these and told them to retool the part. So that it worked. But in order to do that you have to purchase 10,000 pcs instead of doing the right thing and losing some money they decided to "use" the parts they had on hand and wait until they were finished before ordering more parts shame shame.


Not good. I would say the epoxy will help but in the end this connection will fail. I would suggest epoxy with a super low profile jack. That never gets removed from this unit EVER..... I would even go as far as to use something on the outside so the jack stays in place.. I know there have been many designs for this already. I would look for a jack that can be reused like the ipod headphone jack and using something like that its very small and very low profile.

Chris

[Gutbucket]

Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. 

Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:

Ok what I would do is get 15 minute epoxy not 5 minute you want something with a long cure time. You have to epoxy this in two stages. First stage try and get some of the epoxy under the jack and all the way around it on the circuit board. Make sure none gets inside the jack use a tooth pick for applying it and a thin piece of paper to get it under the jack as much as possible. Remember less is more. Take your time and be careful. Then after that's done. Then get some clear tape like scotch tape and apply it to the parts that have the gold contacts seen through the top of the plastic jack make these as small as possible to provide a good seal. After the first layer of epoxy has dried give it at least 2 hours to cure. Then gently apply epoxy to the top and sides of the jack on the circuit board this will make sure that the jack does not move again use a tooth pick. One word of caution this will void the living hell out of your warranty. And make future repairs for this unit very difficult but if this is done right it will work. The other method that could be done is to put in a second line input jack that has a nut on it drill a hole thru the case and use fine wire to attach off of the pcb connections again I must stress this would be very difficult but it would guarantee that the jack that's on the pcb never gets damaged.

Chris

Thanks Chris.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking.  I'm out of warranty in a week anyway so that's not a concern, but like you say I am considering the ability to make my own future repairs if needed.  Space in the case is limited for another jack, but I could nix the internal mics and put an auxiliary jack in one of the empty mic housings.  That would make a right angle plug input cable lay nicely along the side of the recorder, too.  Is the 15 minute epoxy thinner (less viscous) than the 5 minute stuff allowing it to get under the jack? or is there some other reason for using that other than a longer working time?

Looking at this I also realize that if the mic-in jack was broken it might be possible to bypass it by splicing into the internal mic leads that have their own removable attachment points on the board.

[Church-Audio]

Here are some photos of the new replacement board - looks just like the old one, but without the torn trace & lifted jack. 

Wide view with board in bottom half of case and internal mics in place:

Ok what I would do is get 15 minute epoxy not 5 minute you want something with a long cure time. You have to epoxy this in two stages. First stage try and get some of the epoxy under the jack and all the way around it on the circuit board. Make sure none gets inside the jack use a tooth pick for applying it and a thin piece of paper to get it under the jack as much as possible. Remember less is more. Take your time and be careful. Then after that's done. Then get some clear tape like scotch tape and apply it to the parts that have the gold contacts seen through the top of the plastic jack make these as small as possible to provide a good seal. After the first layer of epoxy has dried give it at least 2 hours to cure. Then gently apply epoxy to the top and sides of the jack on the circuit board this will make sure that the jack does not move again use a tooth pick. One word of caution this will void the living hell out of your warranty. And make future repairs for this unit very difficult but if this is done right it will work. The other method that could be done is to put in a second line input jack that has a nut on it drill a hole thru the case and use fine wire to attach off of the pcb connections again I must stress this would be very difficult but it would guarantee that the jack that's on the pcb never gets damaged.

Chris

Thanks Chris.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking.  I'm out of warranty in a week anyway so that's not a concern, but like you say I am considering the ability to make my own future repairs if needed.  Space in the case is limited for another jack, but I could nix the internal mics and put an auxiliary jack in one of the empty mic housings.  That would make a right angle plug input cable lay nicely along the side of the recorder, too.  Is the 15 minute epoxy thinner (less viscous) than the 5 minute stuff allowing it to get under the jack? or is there some other reason for using that other than a longer working time?

Looking at this I also realize that if the mic-in jack was broken it might be possible to bypass it by splicing into the internal mic leads that have their own removable attachment points on the board.

15 minute epoxy is much thicker but.. if you mix it 50/50 and work with it very quickly you will be able to do it. I would consider doing the epoxy but I would also attach leads to the solder pads as well.. So that you have options in the future if the jack goes south. I have opened up another Roland product that uses the same jacks guess what... The plastic pins are there... I guess they do have them after all makes me wonder why they are not using them..

[it-goes-to-eleven]

5 minute epoxy starts to gel within about 2-3 minutes depending on ambient temp and how you mix it.. It just goes way too fast...  A longer setting epoxy will also be a little stronger.  You can thicken the epoxy with fillers (some fillers are strong, some are weak and intended for easy sanding) and I'd recommend that vs. waiting for that brief window where it briefly thickens right before setting. Even 15 minute epoxy is a bit brief for a project like this.

There seems to be plenty of room to install a switchcraft panel mount jack in place of the microphone. That's probably what I'll do rather than the epoxy.  Chris' suggestion of soldering wires to the pads before epoxying is probably a good way to go... of course if you still rip it out after the epoxy, I'm guessing your wires will come with it.

[Church-Audio]

5 minute epoxy starts to gel within about 2-3 minutes depending on ambient temp and how you mix it.. It just goes way too fast...  A longer setting epoxy will also be a little stronger.  You can thicken the epoxy with fillers (some fillers are strong, some are weak and intended for easy sanding) and I'd recommend that vs. waiting for that brief window where it briefly thickens right before setting. Even 15 minute epoxy is a bit brief for a project like this.

There seems to be plenty of room to install a switchcraft panel mount jack in place of the microphone. That's probably what I'll do rather than the epoxy.  Chris' suggestion of soldering wires to the pads before epoxying is probably a good way to go... of course if you still rip it out after the epoxy, I'm guessing your wires will come with it.

You are right about the epoxy.. I think if you can use small enough wires you can tie a knot in them right after the solder pad and that would act as an anchor for the wire once the epoxy set up. Then you would not have to worry "as much" about pulling the trace with the wire. I think its a pretty good idea. Then if you dont use the wires you could just cap them off with some heatshrink and wait until you do have a problem with the jack.

Chris

[Gutbucket]

Wow see the holes thru the circuit board lol... That are right on top of the jacks, they are supposed to have plastic pins that go from the input jacks thru the board because they are not there every time you plug into the jack you are pushing the jack backwards this will eventually fail again lol..

Yep.  That's the source of the problem. I was hoping the new board they replaced mine with would have had the correct jacks with the plastic pins by now - almost a year later.  I was originally thinking of soldering small leads to the input jack's solder pads and running a pig tail out to an external jack, knotted behind the exit hole for stress relief, but now I'm leaning towards putting a nutted jack in the end of one of the internal mic housings which I could easily replace if necessary.  The switchcraft panel mount jack sounds like the one, Freelunch.

I'm pleased Roland took care of the repair quickly and at no charge, but I was really hoping for the correct 'pinned' jacks in the new part.  R-09 users be aware that this issue is still one to be careful about, even with new R-09's!

[Church-Audio]

Wow see the holes thru the circuit board lol... That are right on top of the jacks, they are supposed to have plastic pins that go from the input jacks thru the board because they are not there every time you plug into the jack you are pushing the jack backwards this will eventually fail again lol..

Yep.  That's the source of the problem. I was hoping the new board they replaced mine with would have had the correct jacks with the plastic pins by now - almost a year later.  I was originally thinking of soldering small leads to the input jack's solder pads and running a pig tail out to an external jack, knotted behind the exit hole for stress relief, but now I'm leaning towards putting a nutted jack in the end of one of the internal mic housings which I could easily replace if necessary.  The switchcraft panel mount jack sounds like the one, Freelunch.

I'm pleased Roland took care of the repair quickly and at no charge, but I was really hoping for the correct 'pinned' jacks in the new part.  R-09 users be aware that this issue is still one to be careful about, even with new R-09's!

Do you have a micrometer? if so can you measure the jack and the hole spacing I might be able to find the "correct part" and then you can unsolder the old jack and put in the proper one + the epoxy would be a pretty solid fix. The problem with fixing after its broken is that the solder pads most likely separate from the microscopic traces they are using to the input jack making a repair after the fact almost impossible ( good design work ) I will say this about ROLAND they make some of the best products out there they have great designs for there products and the R-09 is amazing but dam they had to know you guys would actually want to use the line input jacks and mic jacks didn't they?

[Gutbucket]

you have a micrometer? if so can you measure the jack and the hole spacing I might be able to find the "correct part" and then you can unsolder the old jack and put in the proper one + the epoxy would be a pretty solid fix. The problem with fixing after its broken is that the solder pads most likely separate from the microscopic traces they are using to the input jack making a repair after the fact almost impossible ( good design work ) I will say this about ROLAND they make some of the best products out there they have great designs for there products and the R-09 is amazing but dam they had to know you guys would actually want to use the line input jacks and mic jacks didn't they?

I'll dig mine out.  That's exactly how mine failed.  The jack lifted the solder pad off the board and ripped the microscopic board trace.  Which is why I'll probably be installing the auxillary jacks and taping over the stock jacks so they aren't used at all.

[JD]

With all this talk of applying epoxy on PC boards, it might be worth mentioning that not all epoxies are non-conductive. The vast majority of them are non-conductive, but there are some that are conductive. Putting anything on o PC board that is even slightly conductive will be sure to alter the circuit somewhat.

Most epoxy manufactures will have conductivity information available on their websites. 

Food for thought.

[guysonic]

Fix suggestions for gluing down the jack is in another thread somewhere. 

Photos show OLD JACK design without any glue (which is good so you don't have to remove Roland's 'flex' glue that still allows pads to break.  However, using AS-IS will cause pads to break off the board way too easily again.


Highly suggest the following:

First use pure alcohol with Qtip to clean just the glue surfaces on side of jack and surrounding board ONLY. and this treatment helps the epoxy stick much better.

Do not attempt to solder anything to jack pads (asking for trouble for little or no gain, or try to force glue underneath the jacks (won't reach or hold much of anything).  Glue ONLY the sides of these jacks avoiding getting anything inside jacks.  Taping over holes is good suggestion if not covering jack surfaces needed for glue to hold.

Do NOT attempt to replace or bypass these jacks as there is a mechanical ground switch the deck uses to turn MIC/LINE jack ON when plug is inserted.  If you bypass or replace the jacks, the deck will not select anything external and use the internal mics ONLY.

And finally, SHAME ON ROLAND FOR NOT AT LEAST GLUING DOWN THESE JACKS or finding the correct molded jacks that use those board mounting holes!

[Church-Audio]

With all this talk of applying epoxy on PC boards, it might be worth mentioning that not all epoxies are non-conductive. The vast majority of them are non-conductive, but there are some that are conductive. Putting anything on o PC board that is even slightly conductive will be sure to alter the circuit somewhat.

Most epoxy manufactures will have conductivity information available on their websites. 

Food for thought.

I am pretty sure at $40 a tube you would know if you were using conductive epoxy

[guysonic]

With all this talk of applying epoxy on PC boards, it might be worth mentioning that not all epoxies are non-conductive. The vast majority of them are non-conductive, but there are some that are conductive. Putting anything on o PC board that is even slightly conductive will be sure to alter the circuit somewhat.

Most epoxy manufactures will have conductivity information available on their websites. 

Food for thought.

I am pretty sure at $40 a tube you would know if you were using conductive epoxy

Suggest using 'clear' epoxy as conductive types are NOT clear with having conducting metal particles in the mix. 

Plastic 'welder' type epoxies are not clear, rather with a 'creamy' semi-translucent look, and better adhesion to many hard to grip plastic surfaces like inside the deck, and as far as I know, also have no conducting metal particles. I have used this type inside the deck in the past and no problems so far.  These types are generally 'higher viscosity' types, and are a bit harder to force into small features like corners.

Some heat conducting epoxies do have metal oxides and maybe some other stuff, and also should not conduct, but maybe stay away from these in general just to be sure.