Topic: Setting up a new DR 680- the things to know

[MULETAPER]

Okay mine just showed up and did not come with a manual.

"mix trim," "mix pan," and "rec trim."  Do I want to pan the left full left, and right full right?  I don't think I want to but will leave that up for advise.  Mix level, what is that?  1/2 arrived at 75, 3/4 at 0.  Thats all I'm using for now so whats the deal?  Rec trim I put everything to 0.

heres a link to the manual PDF...http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/43/E_DR-680_OM_vA.pdf

[ShawnF]

I think we're actually in agreement about the monitoring--you can't monitor both the SPDIF and analog signals at the same time (that is, simultaneously).  You have to switch between MIX MON and DIN MON, as you mentioned.

If you mean you cannot monitor the SPDIF input and the stereo mix channel levels at the same time, your are correct.  However you can monitor the 6 individual analog inputs and the SPDIF input at the same time when set to DIN MON.

You can indeed record a SPDIF signal to 5/6 and a stereo mixdown, but my point was that the SPDIF signal won't be part of the mixdown--it's just the analog channels.  At least, I'm pretty certain that's the case.

Never tried that so I don't know.  But if you are able to record record SPDIF to 5/6 along with a simultaneous analog stereo mixdown of the other 4 channels, I'd be suprised that you can't see levels for all those things at the same time.  Does it not show SPDIF input levels sent to 5/6 on the 5/6 meters?  If not, and SPDIF input levels are always displayed on the stereo meter regardless of which channels SPDIF is selected to record to, then I understand why both could not be monitored simultaneously.  However even if that is indeed the case, you should be able to switch between showing SPDIF 5/6 levels and showing the stereomix levels by going to the quick menu and switching from DIN MON to MIX MON while recording, you just wouldn't see both at the same time.

I'll have to play around with that sometime.

I don't mean to beat this into the ground, just trying to clarify.  Muletaper, don't let us confuse you with these arcane details which are unimportant to getting started with this recorder!

Sorry, I see where the issue is now, and it's my fault for being loose in terminology and not realizing it sooner.  What I meant by "monitor" was to aurally monitor the audio via headphones whilst recording, and I think what I said was accurate--I don't think it's ever possible to hear the SPDIF and analog signals simultaneously on this unit.  You can definitely visually monitor both individual analog signals and the SPDIF input when when the latter is recorded as tracks 5 & 6.  I think when SPDIF is on the MIX track, you have to do the DIN MON switch as we've mentioned to see the SPDIF levels on the MIX channel; otherwise in MIX MON I think you're just seeing the analog inputs and the MIX channel shows the analog-only mix.  Sorry for the confusion!

[Gutbucket]

Yep, we're on the same page Shawn.

"mix trim," "mix pan," and "rec trim."  Do I want to pan the left full left, and right full right?  I don't think I want to but will leave that up for advise.  Mix level, what is that?  1/2 arrived at 75, 3/4 at 0.  Thats all I'm using for now so whats the deal?  Rec trim I put everything to 0.

To start simply, you only need concern yourself with 'rec trim'.  Forget about mix level and mix pan, they don't effect the indvidual recorded channels, only the optional internal mixdown to the stereo channel (or to the headphone and mixed outputs).

As for panning on the deck.  I don't gang channels so I then record in mono.  I then do any panning in post. 

Ganging channels has no relation to choosing to write mono, stereo, or multichannel interleaved files when recording, or on choosing to do an internal mixdown to the stereo channel.  It only effects how you adjust the controls.  You can gang just some or all of the channels, maybe make three seperate stereo groups: 1+2, 3+4, 5+6 or whatever to adjust gain simultaneously across each group while recording, even if you are writing individual mono files.  Ganging also applies to the mix pan and mix level controls the same way, the number of tracks per file doesn't matter.

[snip]..as you get deeper into multitrack recording you'll find there are times you want to run things out of phase to make it sound better.  IE: mic'ing top and bottom of a snare drum or doing the top and bottom of a Leslie cabinet.  But we are getting a little off topic now

FWIW, the thing about flipping polarity (phase) on one mic of a pair placed on opposite sides of a drum makes sense when you think about the movement of the drum head when hit- it moves inwards on one side while moving outwards from the other side, so if you don't invert polarity on one mic you get tracks that are naturally out of polarity with each other.

It's usually pretty easy to hear which polarity choice is 'better' by listening to the low end.  If it sounds thin and washy, try flipping polarity on one source and see if it sounds fatter.  If one channel of a stero pair is out of polarity with the other, in addition to loss of bass the stereo image will probably sound indistict without a solid center.  The correct choice is usually the one with more bass, but as Kirk knows there are some good exceptions to almost everything.

[MULETAPER]

>>>>>>Muletaper, don't let us confuse you with these arcane details which are unimportant to getting started with this recorder!


you already had lost me.

ive decided to run 2 channels and just get use to using it.

I'll figure it all out,I just need to nail it down before Little feat next week. tonights for fun anyway. I still didnt find din-mon setting.

[kirk97132]

Yep, we're on the same page Shawn.

"mix trim," "mix pan," and "rec trim."  Do I want to pan the left full left, and right full right?  I don't think I want to but will leave that up for advise.  Mix level, what is that?  1/2 arrived at 75, 3/4 at 0.  Thats all I'm using for now so whats the deal?  Rec trim I put everything to 0.

To start simply, you only need concern yourself with 'rec trim'.  Forget about mix level and mix pan, they don't effect the indvidual recorded channels, only the optional internal mixdown to the stereo channel (or to the headphone and mixed outputs).

As for panning on the deck.  I don't gang channels so I then record in mono.  I then do any panning in post. 

Ganging channels has no relation to choosing to write mono, stereo, or multichannel interleaved files when recording, or on choosing to do an internal mixdown to the stereo channel.  It only effects how you adjust the controls.  You can gang just some or all of the channels, maybe make three seperate stereo groups: 1+2, 3+4, 5+6 or whatever to adjust gain simultaneously across each group while recording, even if you are writing individual mono files.  Ganging also applies to the mix pan and mix level controls the same way, the number of tracks per file doesn't matter.

[snip]..as you get deeper into multitrack recording you'll find there are times you want to run things out of phase to make it sound better.  IE: mic'ing top and bottom of a snare drum or doing the top and bottom of a Leslie cabinet.  But we are getting a little off topic now

FWIW, the thing about flipping polarity (phase) on one mic of a pair placed on opposite sides of a drum makes sense when you think about the movement of the drum head when hit- it moves inwards on one side while moving outwards from the other side, so if you don't invert polarity on one mic you get tracks that are naturally out of polarity with each other.

It's usually pretty easy to hear which polarity choice is 'better' by listening to the low end.  If it sounds thin and washy, try flipping polarity on one source and see if it sounds fatter.  If one channel of a stero pair is out of polarity with the other, in addition to loss of bass the stereo image will probably sound indistict without a solid center.  The correct choice is usually the one with more bass, but as Kirk knows there are some good exceptions to almost everything.

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you could not gang level adjustments in mono, only in stereo record setting.  Or at least I cannot get it to gang any level settings when recording is set for mono

[achalsey]

So I think I've decided running XLR out of the V2 is just too hot of a signal for my sensitive mics. 

So, is there any difference running RCA > XLR vs. RCA > 1/4"?  Since the RCA is coming out unbalanced, is it just a matter of preference on what to use?

[Gutbucket]

Maybe I'm wrong but I thought you could not gang level adjustments in mono, only in stereo record setting.  Or at least I cannot get it to gang any level settings when recording is set for mono

That's the way I usually run it. I recorded 8 channels last night, ganged 1,2,3 and 5,6 and ended up with 6 mono files plus one stereo file from the SPDIF input.

[Gutbucket]

Since the RCA is coming out unbalanced, is it just a matter of preference on what to use?

Yes but, why not use a balanced connection and just reduce gain on the V2 by 6dB?

I just plugged a tone generator into a V3, made a balanced connection to the DR680, set the input sensitivity to line, trim to +/-0, and switched on a +4dBu tone.  I can add 17dB of gain on the V3 to that line-level signal before peaking the meter on the 680.  I doubt you'll have a problem.

How sensitive are your mics?

[achalsey]

Since the RCA is coming out unbalanced, is it just a matter of preference on what to use?

Yes but, why not use a balanced connection and just reduce gain on the V2 by 6dB?

I just plugged a tone generator into a V3, made a balanced connection to the DR680, set the input sensitivity to line, trim to +/-0, and switched on a +4dBu tone.  I can add 17dB of gain on the V3 to that line-level signal before peaking the meter on the 680.  I doubt you'll have a problem.

How sensitive are your mics?

Sort of a thread jack for a second, sorry:

I'm not really sure.  I don't know nearly enough about the technical side of all this.  It was my first time running XLR out and I was peaking alright on the 680, around -13 or 14, but was flashing red on the V2 consistently with just 9 dbs of gain on the right channel, and 13 on the left.  It was an outdoor show.  Pretty loud for an outdoor show, but nothing crazy.  I was about 40' from the stage.  The only other time I've been flashing red like that was when I ran onstage for a ridiculously loud show.  Had the gain basically as off as it would go for that.

The mics are the CK 1X with the active/PFA set up.  Apparently however the cable is wired, or PFA, or something, makes the signal really hot.  Or at least mine are.

[kirk97132]

sorry that gutbucket and I veered off track...you guys will understand why later   ( i have to look deeper into that thanks GB!)  Having hot mic at your preamp(V2) does not really have any bearing on the input of the 680.  But I second the choice to use a balanced input(TRS-stereo 1/4" or XLR)  TS(tip & sleeve or a mono 1/4" jack) is always my last choice.  The balanced connections in general will have less of a chance of noise.  Be it ground loops or whatever.  IF your preamp can handle the mics output then run balanced out of it into the 680,or XLR in your case.  I use a sound devices MP-2 sometimes and use the XLR out's.  On that unit it has an 1/6" line level output that runs at a lower level than the XLR's.  I used to have to use the lower output with things like a microtracker or an HD-P2 I had sine they do not play well with a hot input.  The 680 can handle the hot input. 

[achalsey]

sorry that gutbucket and I veered off track...you guys will understand why later   ( i have to look deeper into that thanks GB!)  Having hot mic at your preamp(V2) does not really have any bearing on the input of the 680.  But I second the choice to use a balanced input(TRS-stereo 1/4" or XLR)  TS(tip & sleeve or a mono 1/4" jack) is always my last choice.  The balanced connections in general will have less of a chance of noise.  Be it ground loops or whatever.  IF your preamp can handle the mics output then run balanced out of it into the 680,or XLR in your case.  I use a sound devices MP-2 sometimes and use the XLR out's.  On that unit it has an 1/6" line level output that runs at a lower level than the XLR's.  I used to have to use the lower output with things like a microtracker or an HD-P2 I had sine they do not play well with a hot input.  The 680 can handle the hot input.

Question about that.  Are you saying to get two stereo (TRS) 1/4" jacks?  We made the mistake using TRS 1/4" jacks for a SBD feed once and the levels were all funky. 

ETA: it was a SBD (TRS 1/4") > DR-2d (1/8" stereo) feed, not sure if that changes anything.

[kirk97132]

sorry that gutbucket and I veered off track...you guys will understand why later   ( i have to look deeper into that thanks GB!)  Having hot mic at your preamp(V2) does not really have any bearing on the input of the 680.  But I second the choice to use a balanced input(TRS-stereo 1/4" or XLR)  TS(tip & sleeve or a mono 1/4" jack) is always my last choice.  The balanced connections in general will have less of a chance of noise.  Be it ground loops or whatever.  IF your preamp can handle the mics output then run balanced out of it into the 680,or XLR in your case.  I use a sound devices MP-2 sometimes and use the XLR out's.  On that unit it has an 1/6" line level output that runs at a lower level than the XLR's.  I used to have to use the lower output with things like a microtracker or an HD-P2 I had sine they do not play well with a hot input.  The 680 can handle the hot input.

Question about that.  Are you saying to get two stereo (TRS) 1/4" jacks?  We made the mistake using TRS 1/4" jacks for a SBD feed once and the levels were all funky. 

ETA: it was a SBD (TRS 1/4") > DR-2d (1/8" stereo) feed, not sure if that changes anything.

Changes everything.  TRS, or Tip Ring & Sleeve is EXACTLY the same as an XLR connector.  IE:Pin 1 - ground; Pin - 2 hot; Pin - 3 cold. 

What confused you was that a TRS plug is laid out the same way a 1/4 headphone plug is, well physically it is.  But the way a headphone jack carries signal is Tip 1 channel, ring 2nd channel, sleeve ground for both channels.   In your case you only had one channel of a balanced signal.  The correct adapter in that case would have been 1 TRS > 2 TRS.(xlr) >2TRS(xlr) >1/8" mini jack.  You can't just got 1/4" balanced into 1/8 stereo 

What probably happened is that you only got a signal on one channel, the other channel was either dead or noise.   And to futher confuse things the inserts on a SBD use the exact same sized plugs.  I won't get into that since I think it would just add to the confusion. 

When you are taking a balanced output from a SBD (TRS oR XLR)  it is a three wire set up with only two wires carrying signal.  IF you want to use splitters it means split it into two the same kind of plugsthat you are splitting from.

[Gutbucket]

Yeah, the fact that the same 3 conductor connector can be used to pass either a single channel balanced signal or a two channel unbalanced signal confuses things.  By the way, it's not just TRS plugs that are used both ways like this, mini-xlrs are also often used both ways around here.  The exception seems to be standard size XLRs. I don't think I've ever or seen heard of standard size XLRs being used for unbalanced analog signals.

If you plug a TRS jack carrying a balanced signal into a TRS stereo input on your recorder, what you end up with is the identical mono signal recorded on both channels, but one channel in opposite polarity to the other. 

..and that gets to how a balanced line works- only signal with opposite polarity in each leg is allowed to pass freely through the balanced circuitry in the recieving equipment.  Signal showing with the same polarity in each leg is cancled.  The good signal we want has opposite polarity and is allowd to pass, electical interferenece noise picked up along the way has the same polarity gets blocked.

[achalsey]

Oh, wow, okay.  That clears up a lot!  Thanks.  I didn't know what TRS stood for or meant, so assumed a TRS 1/4" was the same sort of deal as a double banded 1/8" stereo plug.  I clearly have not done my homework.