Topic: Mic for loud rock shows

[Mr.Scully]

Hi guys,

for many years I was using the Sony ECM-719 mic which was great for capturing the overall "atmosphere" (the recording had enough bass and you felt like you were at the concert) but the sound wasn't so clear so I was looking for replacement here in this forum. At first I looked at the Church Audio mics but I didn't like the sound samples in the archive, the sound wasn't clear either. Then I found Sound Professionals and bought equipment from them - SP-SPSB-8 battery box and SP-CMC-8 (ES943) cardioids (I bought the omnis as well) + Edirol R-09HR. The sound from the cardiods is clean (and great for folk, classical and other styles of music I don't listen to) BUT lacks power, bass... it's okay but it just doesn't feel right. (I also tried the omnis once but the recording was distorted although I'm quite sure I used the battery box). And that's even though I'm always using the battery box with bass roll off switched off.

So here I am again... searching for new mics :-) They have to be small (stealth), preferably cardioids (to avoid capturing all that audience noise) and must sound "powerful". Is there anything you can recommend to me? I usually record loud rock/punk shows (mostly indoors) and I definitely don't want to pay more than $400 (the less the better, of course).

I also remember one sentence that somebody told me a few years ago: "Phantom power is the absolute best and only way to go." Does it just avoid clipping and overloading OR can it improve the sound itself as well?

Thanks

[fmaderjr]

You probably don't want to hear it, I guess, but CA-14 cards (& omnis) are fantastic mics and are far better than SP-CMC-8 cards. You can't get stealth cards for $400 or less that sound better and they cost MUCH less.

I don't know what sound samples you listened to.

CMC-8's are thin sounding and has been stated, lacking in the bass department. I use to own a pair and am more than happy with my CA-14's at this time.

Don't let the size deter you. Many of us discreetly tape with large mics without issue.

[adrianf74]

You probably don't want to hear it, I guess, but CA-14 cards (& omnis) are fantastic mics and are far better than SP-CMC-8 cards. You can't get stealth cards for $400 or less that sound better and they cost MUCH less.

I don't know what sound samples you listened to.

+1.  What he said.  I sold my CMC-8's (based on the AT-933/c) and bought the CA-14 which are much better sonically.  You won't find better sounding cards under $400.  As far as the "not quite right" factor, that's the unfortunate pick-up pattern of card mics -- I generally prefer my omnis to cards 99 times out of 100.

The CA-14 omnis are awesome for the price.  The only reason I'm looking at B3's or 4061's is because I need something smaller (and those are both omnis) and likely well past the $400 mark. 

[Mr.Scully]

Thanks, guys. OK, I might give a second chance to the Church Audio mics :-)

adrianf74 - do you have any samples how the CA-14 cardioids sound compared to the CA-14 omnis?

I guess I can use the Church Audio mics with my SP battery box as it's a standard connector?

Perhaps I should also give a second chance to the SP-CMC-8 omnis... I just found out that my only unsuccessful attempt with them was without the battery box, hence the distortion. Do omnis really generally sound better than the cardioids?

[newplanet7]

Do omnis really generally sound better than the cardioids?

No. And they can be used in less situations. Cards are more versatile over all.

[adrianf74]

You should give them a third and fourth chance, too.  The problem is this - when you're using the mics to capture ambient sound, there are too many variables left openthat can affect your chances of a good capture.  Not only do you have to deal with drunk morons, there's also a strong chance that the audio sound will "change" from night to night (even if it's the same band playing a multi-night stand).  It could also be as simple as you couldn't get to the sweet spot and had to stand 3-to-4 feet away killing your recording.

I only have one recording where I was able to use both the cards and omnis within inches of each other and this was on a light stand, flying at about 9 feet outdoors and too far away from the source.  Both recordings sound faulted - the omnis sound distant and the cards sound artificial.  This would be far from ideal as a fair comparison.  What is better comes down to personal preferences (much like clothes or food) -- even with drunken idiots, I'd still prefer the sound of an omni capture over cards... I rolled on a show last night where it was a signer-songwriter opening and the crowd was noisy.  The cards would have deflected the idle chit-chat but the resulting recording would sound "fake" to me but the talkers would be less prevalent.   I haven't used the CMC-8 omnis but there are some people on here that like the AT-943/o (again, personal preference).  The whole "what mic do I use" I liken this way - if it's a small club (say 300 people), and you can mount above the crowd and/or be closer than 10 people from the stage (and in line with a stack), run the omnis.  If you're stuck further back in the room (by the board), then the cards might be the better solution.  I usually bring both options with me and figure it out when I get there.

As for the SP battery box - assuming it's a 9V box, it should safely power either mic.  Whatever you do, don't try and record a rock show without a battery box - you've experienced first-hand what happens.

[adrianf74]

No. And they can be used in less situations. Cards are more versatile over all.

Not to get into a flame war or anything... this is very much a personal preference and experience situation (and I've said as much above).  Depending on the venue there may be times where cards are "TOO CLOSE" to use (i.e., pretty much any small club under 500 people).  Cards do sound less "real" but as I said this is very much a personal preference.  I hate people who think cards are the only way to go (I used to be part of that club but have been learning that this is far from the case and there are many people in these parts who will either roll with omnis or do a matrix with both omnis and cards but never rely on cards alone unless they absolutely need to). 

In the last 20 or shows I've rolled this since mid-July, only two of these shows used the cards.  One was because I was stuck by the soundboard in a club that stands about 3000 people and had to stand around 40-odd rows from the stage; the other was because I needed to deflect "unruly wooks" outdoors and it was a solo-performance and I was set up about 150-200 feet from the stage FOB.  In the first case, I don't like the sound anywhere as much as the recording I made the following night (outdoors vs. indoors) using omnis.   In the case where I was dealing with wooks, even though I was running the CA-14's with Dead Rats, I got hit by wind as I was flying them at 9-to-10 feet.  The other two performances that night where the omnis were used didn't get hit, period.

In some other cases, a friend used his AKG480's with cards and I've run omnis (at this same festival) and my omnis sounded a lot richer and alive whereas his recording (on a stand at the same height with mics no more than 18 inches away sounded hollow. 

[newplanet7]

No. And they can be used in less situations. Cards are more versatile over all.

Depending on the venue there may be times where cards are "TOO CLOSE" to use (i.e., pretty much any small club under 500 people). 

?.
Maybe for you. A ton of members on this board only tape club/theater shows. Me being one and the above statement is false.
Omni's are great for onstage/stage-lip, outdoors, and great for mixdowns.
Cards are equally as great in said situations and reject more of the negatives that show up with omnis'
IE Crowd, or shitty room sound.
My point being you would use cards in a number of more situations than you would omnis. Shitty sounding rooms
rowdy crowds

Just personal preference here but I don't like the sound of omnis unless they have an actual decent split between
them to get great imaging.

[Mr.Scully]

I just spent half an hour listening to samples in the archive (and comparing CA-14 cardioids to omnis) and I think both of you are right in some aspects. To me the omnis sound more natural, it feels like if I was right at the venue. While cardiods are more versatile and one can use them in all kinds of situations. In the end it's good to have both :-)

So at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

[adrianf74]

I just spent half an hour listening to samples in the archive (and comparing CA-14 cardioids to omnis) and I think both of you are right in some aspects. To me the omnis sound more natural, it feels like if I was right at the venue. While cardiods are more versatile and one can use them in all kinds of situations. In the end it's good to have both :-)

So at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

Indeed.  99% of the time I carry both my CA-14 omnis and cards with me and decide what I'm doing once I secure my spot.  I used to run the CMC-8's and, although they weren't bad, the CA-14's are considerably better (increased bass response for cards as well as a "cleaner" mid-range). 

Best of luck.

[fmaderjr]

at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

The SP-CMC-8 omnis are generally well liked here so you'll probably be happy you tried them. It is the cards many of us have a problem with. (I wouldn't be surprised if the CA-14 omnis were a bit better though).

However some situations are much better suited to cards than omnis and sometimes vise versa. It is good to have a good pair of each available and to know when to use them (not my strong point- I almost always use cards to minimize the chatter behind me).

[adrianf74]

at the next gig I will probably test the SP-CMC-8 omnis which I have in box for three or four years without using them. And if I don't like the sound, I will most likely go for the CA-14 omnis.

The SP-CMC-8 omnis are generally well liked here so you'll probably be happy you tried them. It is the cards many of us have a problem with. (I wouldn't be surprised if the CA-14 omnis were a bit better though).

However some situations are much better suited to cards than omnis and sometimes vise versa. It is good to have a good pair of each available and to know when to use them (not my strong point- I almost always use cards to minimize the chatter behind me).

Can't speak of the CMC-8 omnis but I do like my CA-14 omnis.   Since you normally run your cards, I don't s'pose you're looking to sell your 4060's?   

[Mr.Scully]

Speaking of Sound Professionals, I've heard that the AT853 capsules (SP-CMC-4 I think) may in fact sound better than the more expensive ES943 (SP-CMC-8)? Is it because of the poor bass performance of the SP-CMC-8 cardioids?

[fmaderjr]

Since you normally run your cards, I don't s'pose you're looking to sell your 4060's?   

No, I got rid of a pair of 4061's but I'll keep these for a while.

[acidjack]

Speaking of Sound Professionals, I've heard that the AT853 capsules (SP-CMC-4 I think) may in fact sound better than the more expensive ES943 (SP-CMC-8)? Is it because of the poor bass performance of the SP-CMC-8 cardioids?

I'd say that is a commonly-held view, yes.  I made some recordings I liked OK with the CMC-8 cardiods - frankly a lot of people who stealth seem to like recordings with very little bass, based on some of what I see touted as "great" recordings on DIME and elsewhere - but I moved to the adapters and 853 caps shortly after.   (For omnis, the CMC8s are fine - the omnis have plenty of bass). 

The CMC-4 is much more natural sounding and had a fuller response than the CMC-8.  It is also larger.