Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)

[MikeMannZ]

Whoa the H2 over the m10......

The H2 is designed as a four-capsule mic array with built in recorder.  Use it for anything else and you quickly run into its limitations (eg horrific mic input noise when using external mics). 

The M10 is designed as a recorder with mics added just in case you need to use them.   It's best for voice recording applications where you want to grab sound from all round eg at a meeting.  For concert use it will be recording audience noise from all directions, and room reflections too, rather than providing any focus on the band. It has a very good mic preamp for using external mics, which is the preferred option where possible.

That's my take.   Show me any precedent for a well regarded stereo mic using closely spaced omni capsules and I'll eat my words.  Any discussion of mic technique using omni capsules will suggest a minimum spacing of 40cm (IIRC).  The M10 mic layout is a design compromise.  You can make a recording that appears to sound good but the stereo imaging doesn't stand up to close examination, whereas the stereo imaging of the H2, particularly when using all four capsules, is very good.  The M10 is, none the less, all round a very nice device.

So let me ask you this.  If you were buying a recorder solely for recording a band in a live situation with the units internal mics... you would choose the h2 over the m10?  If not either of these recorders then which?

Mike

[Ozpeter]

So let me ask you this.  If you were buying a recorder solely for recording a band in a live situation with the units internal mics... you would choose the h2 over the m10?  If not either of these recorders then which?

Heh, I asked for that, didn't I?!

Firstly, I much prefer the user experience of the M10 and I'd have to force myself to focus on the final outcome rather than on which I'd prefer to be using.

If it's a loud band the M10 will, I think, clip before the H2 would, but I need to double check on that.

If it's a stealth recording, the M10 is more discreet (eg you can turn off all lights and indicators).

The M10 battery life means you don't have to even think about it.  The H2 is no disaster in that department but you would be silly not to start with really fresh batteries.

I record classical music rather than rock, so that skews my requirements.

I guess the overall answer is that I'd probably use the H2 if the best end result was the priority, but I would wish I was using the M10.

As for what's best given a wider choice of device, I'd bow to others' greater hands-on experience.  The R09 or the H4N??  Assuming that you don't have a huge amount of cash to spend.

[MikeMannZ]

I guess the overall answer is that I'd probably use the H2 if the best end result was the priority, but I would wish I was using the M10.

The h2 uses 2 cardioids and 2 omnis so the overall result would be more well rounded?  The M10 would provide more low end (from what I gather) and less to none stereo image?  I've heard a ton of internal mic stuff from the m10 and gotta say quality wise (to my ears) I like it much more than what I hear coming out of the h2.

Does the M10 provide plug in power?  or do I need a ps to hook up some Deluxe Audio Technica Miniature Binaural microphones?

Mike

[earmonger]

Does the M10 provide plug in power?  or do I need a ps to hook up some Deluxe Audio Technica Miniature Binaural microphones?

Mike

Plug-in power provided. And a cute feature--when you plug in the mics, it asks if you want to turn on the plug-in power.

[Ozpeter]

The h2 uses 2 cardioids and 2 omnis so the overall result would be more well rounded

The H2 uses 2 pairs of cardioids (or so I've always understood).  One pair is 90 degrees, the other pair 120 degrees, so you can get different results from front and back, or record both and mix to taste in postproduction. 

http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=11501 is pretty relevant I think, to avoid wandering too far from the M10 in this thread

[CatScan]

Has anyone found a tight-fitting protective case or "skin" like the one I asked about earlier, or something even better (I'm open for suggestions)?
I really need something to protect the unit while using it (recording or getting ready to record; situations where a box to put it in really isn't very helpful).

[colargol]

I use the display button to turn the light on . But with the battery life I prefer to just leave the the light always on, less chance of noise from handling it.

I tested this with my GP 2700 mAh rechargeables just to see if leaving the light on meant much battery-wise, and it recorded for 24 hours and 37 mins in 44.1 khz 24 bits on internal mics. Pretty impressive!

[johnw]

Finally got my M10 today. First impressions are that it is much smaller than I was expecting. Way way smaller and much lighter than the D50. It also feels pretty cheap and plasticky, not nearly as solid feeling as the D50, much more like the R-09HR. The display is great and the menu is about as easy to navigate as the D50. The line in on the top sucks and seems flimsy and prone to breaking. I hope it is soldered to the board like the R-09HR and not like the R09. The power/hold switch is pretty sweet. You have to hold it back for 3 seconds to power off, so that shouldn't be a problem. I wish it had a light button like the D50, but can live without it. The door for the card is a better design than the D50 and doesn't rattle. All in all, pretty sweet unit with almost all of the nicer features of the D50, but in a much smaller package for a slightly cheaper price.

Here's a few comparison shots of the M10 with a 722, iphone and Nbox.









Almost the exact same footprint as the iphone and about twice as thick.

EDIT:
Here's an old one of my Nbox and D50 for comparison:

[page]

damn john, that's sexy

[mloewen]

Has anyone found a tight-fitting protective case or "skin" like the one I asked about earlier, or something even better (I'm open for suggestions)?
I really need something to protect the unit while using it (recording or getting ready to record; situations where a box to put it in really isn't very helpful).

I found 2 camera bags at a local Dollar Tree store that are perfect size to put in for my pocket or the case I keep all my gear in or to clip it to my belt. There was also a Kodak case some has pictures of on part 1 of this thread>

[Napo]

Here a sample of a live recording in a concert hall. It is Bill Frisell trio and the sound of his guitar comes out pretty good.

Please note that:
- recording at 96/24 (duration around 3 minutes)
- internal mics
- I was handhelding the device
- you may need to increase the volume to appreciate the sample in full (no post edit applied).
- the file is 89 mega, downloadable for the next 7 days at https://www.yousendit.com/download/RmNEV0o5dEM1bmhjR0E9PQ 
 
My ears are satisified with the result. Two problems remain: the stereo image is almost not existing; the bass frequency tends to be booming at times.

Grateful for your feedback.

[fmaderjr]

It also feels pretty cheap and plasticky, not nearly as solid feeling as the D50, much more like the R-09HR.

I disagree. I think both the M10 and R-09HR feel very solid and feel great in your hand (unlike the R-09, Zoom products, and the MT24/96). For the price, were you expecting it to be built like a MixPre?

[darktrain]

It also feels pretty cheap and plasticky, not nearly as solid feeling as the D50, much more like the R-09HR.

I disagree. I think both the M10 and R-09HR feel very solid and feel great in your hand (unlike the R-09, Zoom products, and the MT24/96). For the price, were you expecting it to be built like a MixPre?

I agree the M10 felt very solid, it was just a smaller version of the D50 and looks like they were made of the same stuff, all the other recorders except the pmd620 felt "hollow" and cheap

[johnw]

Everyone has an opinion, that's just mine. The reason I brought it up is because I've seen it described/advertised as having an aluminum enclosure and that is misleading. The faceplate may have some aluminum, but certainly not the sides and most of the back. EDIT: The official Sony product page only states durable construction for the M10. They state that the D50 is constructed of lightweight metal (aluminum).

Having owned and used an R-09HR, D50 and now an M10, I would describe it as very much like the R-09HR which is not advertised as having an aluminum enclosure. The D50 is very solid, has some weight to it and would appear to be mostly aluminum. EDIT: I agree that it looks like the D50, but don't believe they share the same materials in their construction.

I think the price closely matches the build quality and I would not expect much more. If I wanted a more substantial unit and was willing to sacrifice on size, I would pay another $150 and go with the D50.

I have never owned or used a MixPre, so I can't comment on that.

[johnw]

D50 weight 366g with 4AA (266g without)bats)
M10 weight 187 with 2AA (137g with out bats)
Weight of AA battery about 25g

D50 size 378.5 cm3
M10 size 167.8 cm3

Density (cm3/g)
D50 1.4
M10 1.2

Density is about the same. Either way, I don't plan on returning it or dropping it. So long as the 3.5mm line input jack lasts for 2-3 years, I'll be happy with it.