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Author Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)  (Read 110578 times)

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #315 on: July 10, 2015, 11:00:37 AM »
Jim Williams has been consistently favorable in his posts about the 70d.  He mentioned that the mod is difficult because of the tight space in the 70d. 

Charlie Daniels said a rich man goes to college and a poor man goes to work.  There is obviously a difference in an SD and 70d.  If you can't buy a SD, get a 70d, I suppose is one possible interpretation. 

The 70d is $200 to $250.  The mod may end up costing $150 with shipping.  Not so long ago, people were paying more for less. 

Given a budget of $400, what other recorder do you see as better?

Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #316 on: July 10, 2015, 11:41:15 AM »
I have no opposition in principle to mod'ing a deck (in fact, I own an Oade recorder).  There are some, the PMD660 being the poster child, that unquestionably benefited from an upgrade.  My question is whether this one actually needs it or not.  Would I actually have audibly better results?  Would the numbers look better?  I have no doubt Williams is sincere, but even audio gurus suffer from some pretty profound biases; maybe he thinks it is great solely because he did it.  Who knows.  For sure, I am not headed over to gs to read up on it (I hate the attitudes there), unless he has posted some comps or numbers...

Personally, I would hesitate to void the warranty on a recorder if I wasn't pretty sure it would result in an audible improvement.

Well, we're about to find out if it's audibly better I suppose.  Cheesecadet said that he heard a definite improvement with his modded 70D, and you can consider me guinea pig #2. 

Didn't you take a similar leap of faith modding your deck and voiding your warranty?  Oade does not publish measurements on their modded units.  I realize that they've been around a while though, so I suppose there's a certain amount of anecdotal evidence to support them.

Jim has not posted any measurements or comps on his unit, but as 2manyrocks says, he's consistently enthusiastic about it, even the stock un-modded unit.

The Remote board on GS doesn't have many bad attitudes there - most of them are very helpful.  There is the occasional person who wants everyone to own $10k+ in equipment to get a good result, but they are few and far between on that board.  I would try them again - I read there every day since there's so many people posting who record the stuff I record.
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Offline groovon

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #317 on: July 10, 2015, 12:56:20 PM »
I have no opposition in principle to mod'ing a deck (in fact, I own an Oade recorder).  There are some, the PMD660 being the poster child, that unquestionably benefited from an upgrade.  My question is whether this one actually needs it or not.  Would I actually have audibly better results?  Would the numbers look better?  I have no doubt Williams is sincere, but even audio gurus suffer from some pretty profound biases; maybe he thinks it is great solely because he did it.  Who knows.  For sure, I am not headed over to gs to read up on it (I hate the attitudes there), unless he has posted some comps or numbers...

Personally, I would hesitate to void the warranty on a recorder if I wasn't pretty sure it would result in an audible improvement.

Well, we're about to find out if it's audibly better I suppose.  Cheesecadet said that he heard a definite improvement with his modded 70D, and you can consider me guinea pig #2. 

Didn't you take a similar leap of faith modding your deck and voiding your warranty?  Oade does not publish measurements on their modded units.  I realize that they've been around a while though, so I suppose there's a certain amount of anecdotal evidence to support them.

Jim has not posted any measurements or comps on his unit, but as 2manyrocks says, he's consistently enthusiastic about it, even the stock un-modded unit.

The Remote board on GS doesn't have many bad attitudes there - most of them are very helpful.  There is the occasional person who wants everyone to own $10k+ in equipment to get a good result, but they are few and far between on that board.  I would try them again - I read there every day since there's so many people posting who record the stuff I record.

I took it that the 'poor man's SD' comment could have referred to the the stock deck, as much as the modded one.

Personally I'm a hound for modifications if I can do them myself, but today's SMD's make me go crosseyed ;D There's nothing wrong with NE5534s (it's hard to imagine why Tascam didn't use them as output line drivers as well, as it's one of the things they're best at). However, the specs of the replacement opamps are superlative, and they're also said to be extremely stable. Adding film caps parallel to the DC-blocking electrolytics is standard practice, and 'arguably worthwhile'. So on paper at least, and for the modest price, your mod looks like a no-brainer.

The low price of a new deck makes it a natural for experiments and modifications, SO a new stock deck should be easy to afford and set up for blind comparison testing of the mods--right? ....just kidding  :D

Dave

Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #318 on: July 10, 2015, 01:01:03 PM »
Since people are asking, here are some samples of things I've recorded straight into the 70D's internal pres with a 4-mic setup of of my CM3s and XQs.  Keep in mind that all of these tracks except the first one have had a trip through RX noise removal to reduce significant HVAC noise in the places I record.  The self-noise of the 70D and/or the mics themselves may have been reduced along the way, but I was very judicious in my noise removal.  The 70D was set to HIGH gain for all but the second example.

Civil War reenactment band (mid-hall, very boomy auditorium, no noise reduction):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/78ilmz5hozwzq62/Street%20Marches%20MIX.mp3?dl=0

250-voice high school choir (balcony, large auditorium, LOW gain)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tieor1xjmk5dglg/03%20John%20the%20Revelator%20-%20phased%20array.flac?dl=0

30-voice middle school girls' choir (conductor perspective, PA forward of mics, large concrete gym):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4kuiu7bmgcs0oz/11.%20No%20One%20is%20Alone.mp3?dl=0

High school chamber string orchestra (conductor perspective, small auditorium):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/umfz94ge8bftuth/12.%20Chinese%20Folk%20Fantasy.mp3?dl=0

Piano / Orchestra / Choir (CM3s only, balcony, small auditorium):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ug41juoxunufgmc/Beethoven%20-%20Choral%20Fantasy.flac?dl=0


For comparison, here are a couple good recordings I've made with CM3 > FP24 > M10.

Trumpet quartet (36cm/90deg, mid-hall):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0qgp3dh4rkhbq2/04%20Look%20For%20The%20Silver%20Lining.flac?dl=0

20-voice chamber choir (30cm/90deg, conductor perspective):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3ktungnkdj145s/Chamber%20Choir%20-%20%20Ubi%20Caritas.flac?dl=0
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 01:05:47 PM by voltronic »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #319 on: July 10, 2015, 01:20:18 PM »
Adding film caps parallel to the DC-blocking electrolytics is standard practice, and 'arguably worthwhile'.

What exactly does this do?  Help prevent phantom current from leaking into the signal path?
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Offline groovon

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #320 on: July 10, 2015, 02:48:34 PM »
Adding film caps parallel to the DC-blocking electrolytics is standard practice, and 'arguably worthwhile'.

What exactly does this do?  Help prevent phantom current from leaking into the signal path?

The caps block phantom DC, yes. And putting small, high quality film caps across the electrolytics is supposed to improve their ability to pass the audio signal unscathed, which electrolytics by themselves are (on paper, anyway) relatively poor at.

Dave
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 02:50:50 PM by groovon »

Offline audBall

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #321 on: July 10, 2015, 03:17:26 PM »
Here are a few stage-lip samples of the recent Charlie Hunter show here. The mics (MG M20) were plugged directly into the DR-70D.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173495.msg2151103#msg2151103
mg m20.21.23 ■ akg ck61.62.63 »  nbob■naiant
aercomp2 ■ v2∞3 ■ sx-m2d2
d100 ■ pmd661 ■ r44ocm ■ f3

Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #322 on: July 10, 2015, 03:29:35 PM »
Here are a few stage-lip samples of the recent Charlie Hunter show here. The mics (MG M20) were plugged directly into the DR-70D.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173495.msg2151103#msg2151103

Great recording!  Those Gefell's are really nice!  What was being used with that jecklin?
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Offline audBall

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #323 on: July 10, 2015, 03:32:34 PM »
Great recording!  Those Gefell's are really nice!  What was being used with that jecklin?

Thanks! The jecklin setup belongs to member MIQ and had a pair of DPA 4060's. His full recording is on the LMA. Unfortunately, this was the show where I found out my 32GB card didn't play nicely and ended up with a bunch of digi-noise. Thankfully, Miq was there and pulled a really nice recording.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 03:34:20 PM by audBall »
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #324 on: July 10, 2015, 03:52:24 PM »
Well, we're about to find out if it's audibly better I suppose.  Cheesecadet said that he heard a definite improvement with his modded 70D, and you can consider me guinea pig #2. 

We will if you do a decently controlled before/after comp!  Really, it is very difficult to assess any audible changes by memory.  Auditory memory is way too short, and confirmation bias is a bitch, and we're probably talking about fairly small differences around the edges of the deck's capabilities to begin with.

Didn't you take a similar leap of faith modding your deck and voiding your warranty?  Oade does not publish measurements on their modded units.  I realize that they've been around a while though, so I suppose there's a certain amount of anecdotal evidence to support them.

Absolutely, I did.  Oade does have some sort of warranty policy, but, if I recall correctly, it is pretty limited.  I actually had a factory version of that recorder, so I was able to do some primitive comparisons.  The Oade version was ~ 4 or 5 dB quieter, but, for the rest, not any real difference that I could discern.  I think, now, I would want to see some numbers and a good comp before I ponied up for a mod.  To be honest, I think anyone selling them should provide these (although that's not the case here, I realize).

Jim has not posted any measurements or comps on his unit, but as 2manyrocks says, he's consistently enthusiastic about it, even the stock un-modded unit.

I took it that the 'poor man's SD' comment could have referred to the the stock deck, as much as the modded one.

I went over there and read his posts.  He definitely is referring to the stock in one of them...

Offline aaronji

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #325 on: July 10, 2015, 04:06:12 PM »
Thanks! The jecklin setup belongs to member MIQ and had a pair of DPA 4060's. His full recording is on the LMA. Unfortunately, this was the show where I found out my 32GB card didn't play nicely and ended up with a bunch of digi-noise. Thankfully, Miq was there and pulled a really nice recording.

That sucks.  It would have turned out great, from the sound of the samples.  Love Charlie Hunter.  He grew up where I went to college, so I used to see him all the time in various configurations.  We both moved to NYC at around the same time, so I saw him there a bunch too.  I always catch him when I can...

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #326 on: July 10, 2015, 09:43:13 PM »
Quote
I'm a bit surprised at the opposition to modding this deck, when many people here have other modded Marantz and Edirol decks from Oade and Busman.
I would defend to the death your right to mod the device if only with the aim of knowing - or believing - that you're getting the best possible result from it, whether that can be proven or not, and, whether it actually matters or not.  After the mod, you may be totally convinced it's an improvement from subjective listening, but you'll never be able to hold that up as proof of an improvement.  That's not to say that it won't be interesting to hear your opinion in due course.

Perhaps out of ignorance, I find it hard to believe that recording amplified loud music reveals very much about subtle differences between recording devices or mods thereto, apart perhaps from their ability cleanly to record the high SPLs involved!  The sound would be more heavily influenced by the quality of the amplification of the instruments. (See also later comments re mics).

When it comes to classical music (my thing), as I've said before, I don't believe that there's a lot to be gained in reducing system noise level below a certain point.  Quiet classical music should be reproduced quietly (otherwise, at the ear, the frequency response will be skewed and then it  isn't a high fidelity reproduction of the original).  So you shouldn't be turning up the replay level to the point where system noise is heard (unless you've seriously messed up the recording level at the outset or your recording device is really naff).

Nature recording is a different thing - sometimes you might want to reproduce ambiences at a natural level, so as with classical music, you shouldn't be turning up replay to the point where system noise is heard.  But sometimes your intent is to make audible that which is too quiet or too far off clearly to be heard, and then system noise can be more of a factor.

As for frequency response, I would have thought that any half decent preamp in a recording device these days will have an essentially flat frequency response across the audible range.  If a mod to the device adds (for instance) some kind of presence boost in the higher frequencies, while that might sound more sexy, it's no longer accurate.  And you can fiddle with the response with eq in post production anyway.  I rather suspect that if I posted some samples purporting to be from a 70D before and after a modification, and actually just added a slight HF emphasis to one set of samples actually coming from an unmodded device, most people would identify that as coming from the modded device, simply because it would "sound better".

At the end of the day, what makes the biggest difference in the recording chain is the mics and their placement.  Before spending money on a mod it's worth considering whether it would be better to spend on better mics.  Of course, if the cost of the mod is less than would buy an improvement elsewhere in the chain, go for it.  Then save up for more costly, but probably more effective, improvements in the rest of the chain.

Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #327 on: July 10, 2015, 09:56:26 PM »
had my first problem with a stock DR-70D.

Three glitches I've counted so far in the Cracker set... None longer than a moment, but all occur in all 4 channels, and don't occur on an AUD recording made with totally separate gear (DPA4061's > D50)

https://archive.org/details/Cracker2015-07-07

Guess I'll be checking to see if it was the Tascam or the SD card (ADATA 16GB SDHC, made in China, Class 6, ser# 1202470917, BL1120122026G, blue gradient sticker)
anyone else noticed anything like this? I was running CH 1-2 unbalanced from the SBD, CH 3-4 phantom directly to the Neumanns, and powering off a Ravpower USB pack, with AA's loaded. I used LOW gain mode for all 4 channels during Cracker.

There was also MAJOR trouble during the opening act, when I ran the mics at MID mode, and had to keep the level knobs VERY close to zero, making me nervous that I'd shut them off completely. Got a bunch of red flashing lights, and some minor "overlevel samples" but the glitches are far more troubling! EVERYTHING past 24:51 in both files is totally corrupted, with signals sounding like they're cutting in and out, or interleaved!? Very bad.
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Offline H₂O

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #328 on: July 11, 2015, 01:45:23 PM »
had my first problem with a stock DR-70D.

Three glitches I've counted so far in the Cracker set... None longer than a moment, but all occur in all 4 channels, and don't occur on an AUD recording made with totally separate gear (DPA4061's > D50)

https://archive.org/details/Cracker2015-07-07

Guess I'll be checking to see if it was the Tascam or the SD card (ADATA 16GB SDHC, made in China, Class 6, ser# 1202470917, BL1120122026G, blue gradient sticker)
anyone else noticed anything like this? I was running CH 1-2 unbalanced from the SBD, CH 3-4 phantom directly to the Neumanns, and powering off a Ravpower USB pack, with AA's loaded. I used LOW gain mode for all 4 channels during Cracker.

There was also MAJOR trouble during the opening act, when I ran the mics at MID mode, and had to keep the level knobs VERY close to zero, making me nervous that I'd shut them off completely. Got a bunch of red flashing lights, and some minor "overlevel samples" but the glitches are far more troubling! EVERYTHING past 24:51 in both files is totally corrupted, with signals sounding like they're cutting in and out, or interleaved!? Very bad.


What bit rate and sampling rate where you recording at?  class 6 is pretty slow nowadays
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 3)
« Reply #329 on: July 11, 2015, 02:59:43 PM »
What bit rate and sampling rate where you recording at?  class 6 is pretty slow nowadays

24/48 as usual, but with 4 channels.

The ADATA card did poorly on SDSPEED testing, some sections did not make it to class 1 (1 MB/sec transfer rate)

back to ADATA it goes under the lifetime warranty.

I can no long recommend ADATA products, although their warranty replacement service is OK, I guess.
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