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Author Topic: omnis on stage yay or nay  (Read 3986 times)

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Offline deadheadcorey

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omnis on stage yay or nay
« on: March 20, 2014, 07:30:35 PM »
ssia
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Offline bdasilva

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 08:32:04 PM »
yes.. YES... if you can be in the zone between the monitors and PA....  (last thing i recorded split (20') omnis onstage and FoH matrix)

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Offline deadheadcorey

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2014, 08:48:49 PM »
what direction should I point the mics for best result? straight ahead?
mics: Audix M1245a-HC; AKG SE300B/CK91; Naiant X-O (hanging in the sweet spot @ Quixote's True Blue)
pres: Oade T+ UA-5; digimod UA-5
recs: R-09x3

iso: 2 ck93 caps
iso: pair of AT4041 mics

Official Archivist for Grant Farm

http://www.facebook.com/kindrecordingscolorado

Jerry Joseph rap during 'Conscious Contact'
"Life's pretty good. life's pretty good. it isn't all good.
I hate it when people tell me its all good. it's not all good.
it's not suppose to be all good. it's suppose to be bad sometimes so you can enjoy the good parts."

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2014, 10:36:50 PM »
running onstage omni tomorrow in a bright reverbarant space. Quiet seated audience. Had a couple of my omni recordings in the room turn into commercial albums
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Offline acidjack

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 02:56:22 AM »
Nothing is 100%, but generally, I'd go nay.
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Offline yates7592

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2014, 04:17:07 AM »
I say yay

Offline DSatz

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2014, 08:13:52 AM »
> what direction should I point the mics for best result? straight ahead?

There are probably some people going "Huh?" to that question, but it really does matter because no omni (except the ones with tiny, noisy capsules) is really omnidirectional at high frequencies. All omnis quiet enough for professional recording are large enough to have less high-frequency sensitivity at the sides and from the back than they have on-axis. It's a tradeoff, but engineers learn to use it to their advantage.

So the answer depends on what kind of omnis you have and of course on how the music sounds in the space at the distance you're using. If the frequency response curve (on axis) has a substantial (say, more than about 4 dB) rise around 6 - 8 - 10 - 12 kHz, that's not going to sound well balanced if you aim it directly at the sound sources at close range. That type of microphone sounds more natural from farther back, where there's more reverberant sound energy (which has bounced off of various room surfaces along the way, and had a bunch of its high-frequency energy absorbed in the process). If you have that kind of omni, you might want to try aiming it (say) 45 degrees above the main sound sources to avoid getting exaggerated high frequency pickup, which can sound harsh and uncomfortable, like biting into tinfoil.

If the on-axis response of your mikes is closer to flat, though, try aiming them directly toward the main or most important sound sources--you can get amazingly realistic, natural pickup of sound that way.
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Online aaronji

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2014, 11:38:59 AM »
^^^ I have managed to use the directionality of omnis at higher frequencies to greatly improve some of my onstage recordings.  I have recorded a number of piano/bass/drum trios using low stands (a foot to a foot and a half, or so); at the suggestion of Gutbucket, I started to aim the piano side mic at the underside of the piano lid.  It really helps bring out the piano...

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 03:35:18 PM »
Here are two recordings with omni onstage from Tuesday night.

House show for 16 people. Omni - Healy Method

https://onedrive.live.com/#cid=E19B0330EC82C09B&id=E19B0330EC82C09B%21117
Busman BSC1, AT853 (O,C),KAM i2 Chuck Mod (C), Nak 300 (C),
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 02:33:06 PM »
Last night's onstage omni recording with Busman BSC1.

http://kennedy-williams.net/scoobiesnax/2014/03/moraine-michael-owcharuk-trio-zero-g-the-chapel/

The Moraine set has a touch of close mic'ed guitar mixed in.

Love recording in this room. :)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2014, 12:08:54 PM »
If the frequency response curve (on axis) has a substantial (say, more than about 4 dB) rise around 6 - 8 - 10 - 12 kHz, that's not going to sound well balanced if you aim it directly at the sound sources at close range. That type of microphone sounds more natural from farther back, where there's more reverberant sound energy (which has bounced off of various room surfaces along the way, and had a bunch of its high-frequency energy absorbed in the process). If you have that kind of omni, you might want to try aiming it (say) 45 degrees above the main sound sources to avoid getting exaggerated high frequency pickup, which can sound harsh and uncomfortable, like biting into tinfoil.

Good point. 
 
I’ll interject to remind people that the important basic point there is the ability to modify frequency response of the omni microphone by pointing it either directly at something or not-directly at something.   But which direction to best point them off-axis is more determined by the scenario. 

Aiming 45 degrees above the main source may be the best “not-directly at” option for a number of reasons, especially when the microphones are located above or about the same height as the sources- it orients the elevated high-frequency axis away from the close sources and towards the diffuse room sound were it is more appropriate, keeps the horizontal response more even than angling them outwards or inwards, involves less potential floor reflections than angling down, etc.  But I find I often have microphones mounted on stands which are lower than the highest sound sources on the stage, and that the highest sources as seen from the microphone perspective are cymbals producing more high-frequency energy than any other source. So that’s a twist. 

When setting up and orienting microphones on stage, a primary thing I keep in mind outside of the stereo microphone configuration itself is the relationship of all the sound sources and how to get a good balance of them in terms of level, tone and perspective.  Most musicians present one or a few sound sources at most, but a drummer is effectively playing many different instruments simultaneously. 

With a drummer sitting at a traditional trap-set drum kit, her cymbals are likely the highest source (in elevation) on stage as viewed from the perspective of microphones mounted on stands low enough to not be intrusive.  So a lot of what I’m thinking about is my proximity to the drum kit.  After shooting for a direct line of sight to the snare if I can, the next thing I’m considering is the balance of the high-frequency content from the cymbals verses the lower-frequency thump from the kick and toms. The closer to the drum kit my mics are, the more spread out in space and distinct from one another the various sounds and frequency regions of different zones of the kit become, making the details of the microphone arrangement increasingly significant in balancing the drum kit itself in tone and level, as well as stereo perspective, in addition to balancing the kit with the other instruments.  I’ve found that in that situation, pointing the mics upwards over the kit often ends up tilting the overall frequency balance upwards, rather than the other way, as it often puts the cymbals more on-axis than the other parts of the kit.  So instead I might point them some other direction, like maybe directly outwards to get the kit and it’s cymbals off-axis while placing on-axis the musician sources to either side of the kit which may benefit from that extra bit “air” up top.

Knowing about the difference in high-frequency pickup of omnis on-axis verses off-axis and how that works is advantageous and applies generally to all situations, yet knowing how to best apply that knowledge in a particular situation is variable and situation dependant.
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Offline Chuck

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2014, 03:22:37 PM »
I'd like to explore onstage recording a bit more more myself. I've done some of it over the years, but I'm not entirely happy with any recording I've made yet. Other than recordings I've made of non-vocal bands, OM Trio, Charlie Hunter and Lotus. Those came out OK.

One of the places I record in a lot has a huge stage and huge domed roof. The only good pulls I get from there are a mix of SBD and hyper-cardioid audience mics at the SBD position. The way this place is layed out the only even close to centered spot is right at the SBD which is ~45-50 feet away from the stage. The room is boomy as hell.  I have to offset the SBD and AUD mics 42-46 ms in post if that gives you a good reference for how far away the SBD is. The best sounding bands are usually blue grass or stripped down folk bands without electric bass or full drums. So the SBD feed usually is pretty well balanced and I mix in some of the audience mics to open the recording up and provide some room sound.

I'm starting to think about how to put microphones on stage for rock bands, instead of relying on the distant audience mics mixed with the SBD feed. I usually have free run of the place and I'm usually there for sound check. So access is not an issue. But, I'm very concerned about not junking up the look of the stage with mics on 4' stands etc... in there.

I'm not convinced that on-stage omnis would work well in there, because it's even boomy onstage in this place. I may try my AKG active cardioids next time in there, facing toward the band, centered maybe two feet off the stage floor right in front of the most centered lead vocal mic.  I could get the FOH engineer to run my two mics through the snake back to the SBD, so I can get the SBD feed recorded too. Does that sound like it might work?

If any of you guys who do this more often have any advice, I'd love to hear it.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 04:11:53 PM by Chuck »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2014, 05:00:19 PM »
I doubt 2' off the floor in front and to either side the lead vocal mic will be close enough to get loud and clear vocals, but that's probably a good spot for the instrumental stuff.  For anything amplified, you'll probably need the SBD for sufficient vocals, or at least a vox stage monitor spot mic'ed or sufficient bleed from one into the on-stage pair, or good vox from the PA.   

How many channels are you running?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Chuck

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 07:15:06 PM »
I use a DR-680, so I have 8 available.

Yeah, I'm not planing on getting the vocals with the onstage mics. I figure the mics will cover the back line and the drums. I'll get the vocals from the SBD.

There is also the possibility of pointing some very widely spaced cardioids at the drums and backline amps from the sides. I could get those mics up in the four foot high range if that's better. The stage has curtains on the sides, so I could put mic stands behind those curtains so they wouldn't be visible from the audience. The stage is very wide, so those mics wouldn't be as close as I'd like them to be.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: omnis on stage yay or nay
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2014, 10:29:40 PM »
That can work.  Throw what you can at it and see what sticks.  If you have the extra channels and mics (and time, and it doesn't get in the way, and, and) it doesn't hurt to try it.  One thing I like with on stage mics which I don't get in the close mics of a SBD feed is a nice sense of depth and space.  All of those locations or combinations of them can help get that.  I don't have problems running the mics very low to the stage soundwise, sometimes that even seems to help with the sound seeming to travel more cleanly across the floor down at floor level, maybe reducing the reflection off the floor, I dunno.  But it's keeping them from getting stepped on down there that worries me sometimes.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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