Topic: AKG 414XLII Mid Side Mounting

[TNTaper]

I love MS with the 414s in outdoor venues.  Naturally the crowd noise is always an issue, however, it's great when in post you hear the stereo image blossom.  Primary area of interest is in the mount.  With the provided mounts, with clamps and AKG isolated mic mounts, some many attachment points.  I moved to a 3 d print mount designed for the 414s for mid side or xy, but mounting this to the stand has also proved interesting.  The RyCote Shotgun Isolated mount doesn't quite handle the weight well either.  Locking down the elbow very tightly, it still can droop.  Getting a friend to modify it.

Any thoughts or suggestions from tapers with heavy mic's that do mid side mounts would be interesting.

[kindms]

I love MS with the 414s in outdoor venues.  Naturally the crowd noise is always an issue, however, it's great when in post you hear the stereo image blossom.  Primary area of interest is in the mount.  With the provided mounts, with clamps and AKG isolated mic mounts, some many attachment points.  I moved to a 3 d print mount designed for the 414s for mid side or xy, but mounting this to the stand has also proved interesting.  The RyCote Shotgun Isolated mount doesn't quite handle the weight well either.  Locking down the elbow very tightly, it still can droop.  Getting a friend to modify it.

Any thoughts or suggestions from tapers with heavy mic's that do mid side mounts would be interesting.

I always ran coincident (one over the other) when running the 414's with a Blumlien x/y heavy bar. but they are heavy and even the mounting options add to that ass well

been thinking about dusting them off. they have been idle wayy too long (I need new windscreens)

not on a bar but utilizing 2 clamps ith the 414s in the linked pic below
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178320.msg2193617#msg2193617

[goodcooker]

I did MidSide a few times with ADK TLs and they are very heavy.

I tried it a few times with the vertical coincident with one mic upside down approach. The shockmount baskets made this kind of a pain whether using a bar or 2 clamps although 2 clamps did feel easier. Then I tried the side mic pointed with the top forward and the mid mic oriented vertically using the ring mounts instead. This seemed way easier to get oriented.

I also did this a few times using a SD cardioid mic and a TL as the side. This was the least painless and sounded pretty good in the right place. I tend to like this kind of thing up close like the stage lip. I don't think I did it outside too often.

https://archive.org/details/toubabkrewe2009-03-03.stagelip.flac16

[Gutbucket]

Seconding the comment about using a different Mid mic, in particular one that is end address.  Can then mount the Side-channel 414 horizontally just below or above the end-address Mid-mic for a compact arrangement with both XLR's exiting to the rear.

As for standard vertical coincident mounting with one inverted over the other, back in 2008 I made a custom vert bar for the ADK TLs.  That made it easier to setup and run than clamping each individually to the stand upright, yet remained tall and heavy.  The shock-mount hoops serving as support battens made it easy to wrap it with a rectangle of faux fur for wind protection outdoors.  Didn't even need clips to secure it, the fur fabric just tucked snugly into the shock mounts.  I later wrapped a layer of thin disposable poncho plastic (clear, very thin, similar thickness to a dry cleaning bag) around the entire thing, when rain protection was needed at a fest. Both the wind and rain protection worked astoundingly well.  Possibly the easiest and best ever on both accounts for me.

..But found the arrangement just too big and heavy. Especially up on a stand out in the audience.  I've held on to the bar for use onstage with the little folding foot as pictured below.  AKG 414's are considerably smaller and lighter than the ADK's though, making doing something like this is less problematic.

[Gutbucket]

Pro tip-

However you arrange it, a foam earplug can serve as an ideal cushioning compression bushing between the two microphones when the windscreens are not in place. That anchors and cushions the point of contact between the two, allowing for the tightest spacing while eliminating vibration and any potential scratching.

[sounddguy]

This is my inside rig.

[Gutbucket]

^ Perfect application for the ear-plug contact-point cushion

[morst]

Brilliant!
 

Pro tip-

However you arrange it, a foam earplug can serve as an ideal cushioning compression bushing between the two microphones when the windscreens are not in place. That anchors and cushions the point of contact between the two, allowing for the tightest spacing while eliminating vibration and any potential scratching.

[Gutbucket]

^   

Following up to mention the primary reason I built that custom vert bar pictured above was to reduce the chance of the stand from tipping over and the stress on the stand itself.  Having recorded a few times by clamping the mics directly to the top-most tube of the stand, I found the clamps pushed the mics too far forward of the stand, shifting the center of gravity uncomfortably close to the limits of the stand's footprint, creating a big potential tip-forward hazard.  Even staking the stand down to the ground tightly with a screw-in ground auger to prevent tipping, the smaller diameter top most tubes of the stand were bending slightly like a fishing pole under the heavy load when extended. The custom bar allowed for a lot less forward cantilever, shifting the center of gravity back enough to reduce the tendency for the stand to tip, and significantly reduced the bending moment applied to the stand.  Both important when flying the mics above the audience all day at an outdoor fest.

That's obviously more more important the heavier the microphones, so will be less of a concern with the lighter weight 414's, yet applies generally to any vertically coincident LD setup.

To illustrate this, below is a photo posted by Hypnocracy back in 2012 showing his ADK's clamped to a vertical bar.  Note how far forward the microphones are from the vertical bar.   Depending on the clamps used, clamping directly to the stand instead of a vertical mic bar would present about that same forward overhang. Hypnocracy smartly addressed the problem by clamping the vertical mic bar to the stand in such a way that the center of gravity is shifted backward closer to the stand, preventing the assembly from tipping forward.  The bar I made presents about the same forward overhang as he achieves by doing that, yet with the mic bar mounted directly atop the stand.

[voltronic]

It's a rather expensive solution, but a buddy of mine got these two items to use his 414s in M/S or Blumlein:

https://www.shapeways.com/product/5R9WKLDJU/xy-c414?optionId=165317663&li=shops
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/839537-REG/Rycote_041123_INV_BH_InVision_Indoor_Microphone.html

[Nick's Picks]

far easier and lower profile is to mount horizontal sideways (your side), and then one vertical facing forward under (or over) the other.  that's your mid.

    I      top cap
    O     bottom cap

[voltronic]

You could also mount both vertically, but not with one inverted - put them one in front of the other. One of the Blumlein specialists on GS Remote does this with his Sennheiser MKH 30 setup. It would be a little bit more challenging with 414s since you couldn't use a double-sided clip, but it's another option. I wouldn't worry about the rear mic "shadowing" the back of the mid mic, even if you are running both in fig8.

                   (overhead view)
                          stage

                            --   mid
                             I   side

[Gutbucket]

You could also mount both vertically, but not with one inverted - put them one in front of the other. One of the Blumlein specialists on GS Remote does this with his Sennheiser MKH 30 setup. [snip]

I wonder about the effects of non-coincident placement in that arrangement, and how much it matters.  I've wondered about this for a while.

Thinking about it out loud -
● There will be a path-length difference to the two microphones which will vary with the angle of wavefront arrival. That path-length difference will be maximized for a wavefront arriving from directly in front or behind, and there will be no path-length difference for a wavefront arriving directly from either side. This is the inverse of the behavior of a typical near-spaced stereo pair arrangement.
● This is essentially the same relationship as will be found with a stereo shotgun that incorporates a Side mic behind the interference-tube Mid, except producing a somewhat greater path length difference (small diaphragms in a single housing are able to be positioned more closely that two separate LD microphones).
● The path-length differences will manifest symmetrically across the L/R plane.
● Any audible effects are likely to manifest at high frequencies where the wavelengths are short in comparison to the path-length difference.

● A typical vertically-coincident arrangement has the same path-length difference thing going on but it manifests across the vertical plane, not in the horizontal plane which is the primary plane of stereo interest.

● Turning the mount 90° and each microphone 45° for use as a Blumlein arrangement (with the two microphones side by side) rather than for Mid/Side, makes the path-length differences symmetrical for Blumlein, and inverts the wave-front arrival timing relationship- There will be no path-length difference for wavefront arrival from directly in front or behind, and maximum path-length difference for a wavefront arrival directly from either side.  This is the behavior of a typical like a near-spaced stereo pair arrangement, only with a smaller than typical spacing between the two microphones.

So does it matter?  I suspect we need to maintain effective coincidence through the upper midrange frequencies.  Not sure how necessary above that range.  Respected microphone manufactures do offer end-address stereo shotgun microphones with the Side capsule positioned behind the Mid capsule.

A few years ago I encouraged B9 Audio to offer a modular stereo microphone.  Essentially a variant of their existing small diaphragm side-address Blumlein stereo fig-8 microphone, but with a removable top fig-8 capsule, which the user could replace with either a blanking plug for use as a mono fig-8, or an end-address capsule of whatever pattern they wished that B9 has available (omni, subcard, card, supercard, shotgun), to form an end-address Mid-Side arrangement.  While the physical stereo arrangement would be that of a stereo shotgun, the modular nature of it would be unique in allowing choice of Mid pattern.  We talked about it a bit here at TS but in the end he rejected the idea due to this non-coincidence inherent in that arrangement.

Love to do some listening comparisons of vertically coincident verses front/back coincident to hear the effect and empirically determine how much it really matters.

[voltronic]

^ I have read others state the same reservations and wasn't sure myself, until I heard the absolutely jaw-dropping recordings made by Rolo46 on Gearspace Remote Possibilities. He uses two MKH30 in the configuration I described, and has talked at length about it.

The proof is in the listening:
https://gearspace.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-recording-amp-production/1023984-mahler-3-two-mikes.html
https://gearspace.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-recording-amp-production/884938-string-orchestra.html#post9607518
https://gearspace.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-recording-amp-production/861960-faure-requiem-3-mikes.html

[Gutbucket]

Thanks, will check that out.

Likely to get me back to thinking about / wishing for a modular mid/side microphone again.