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Author Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder  (Read 25322 times)

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Offline Rairun

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Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« on: April 23, 2023, 11:20:49 AM »
https://deitymic.com/products/pr-2/

https://proav.co.uk/audio/deity-pr-2-pocket-audio-recorder

This is not out yet, but if it is as good as it sounds like (-132dBV self-noise @ +30dB, 32-bit float, PiP of 3V / 5V / LINE Switchable, 30h on 2 AA batteries, very small), this is going to be the ultimate recorder for stealth taping. The only thing I don't like is that it seems to be 48 kHz only (I prefer to record at 44 kHz), but I'd be more than willing to overlook this for the other features.

In my experience, my CA-11 cards are around 16 dB quieter than the internal microphones of the Zoom H1 and the Roland R-05. They've never ever overloaded either of those recorders with a battery box, and if I decide to use my CA preamp, I can safely use a +15dB setting on the preamp if I set either of those recorders to unity gain (Zoom H1 at level 16, Roland R-05 using Line-in at level 40). Between the pre-amp and the recorders, I find that I usually use between +25dB gain (for loud shows) and +15db gain (for extremely loud shows).

So up to +30dB gain with such low self-noise (and 5V PiP to boot! might even be able to skip the battery box), with 32-float recording, sounds absolutely perfect.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2023, 11:42:08 AM by Rairun »
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Offline SMsound

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2023, 08:33:30 PM »
I'm interested...it looks tiny. This + DPA lavs would be the ultimate micro setup, and no need to attach a phone like DPA's MMA-A.

Any word on pricing?

How is their preamp quality compared to the usual suspects (sound devices)?
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2023, 07:26:55 AM »

Offline BonoBeats

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2023, 02:12:08 PM »
No word on pricing. The fact that it's timecode enabled will probably bably raise that price a bit. Otherwise, it's pretty much what we've waited for.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2023, 03:53:29 PM »
This looks like it has the potential to be THE definitive stealth recorder. 

Heck, with an outboard preamp it seems like it might even be fine for a two-channel rig in open taping scenarios.
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Offline Top Hat

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 01:02:26 AM »
https://deitymic.com/products/pr-2/

https://proav.co.uk/audio/deity-pr-2-pocket-audio-recorder

This is not out yet, but if it is as good as it sounds like (-132dBV self-noise @ +30dB, 32-bit float, PiP of 3V / 5V / LINE Switchable, 30h on 2 AA batteries, very small), this is going to be the ultimate recorder for stealth taping. The only thing I don't like is that it seems to be 48 kHz only (I prefer to record at 44 kHz), but I'd be more than willing to overlook this for the other features.

In my experience, my CA-11 cards are around 16 dB quieter than the internal microphones of the Zoom H1 and the Roland R-05. They've never ever overloaded either of those recorders with a battery box, and if I decide to use my CA preamp, I can safely use a +15dB setting on the preamp if I set either of those recorders to unity gain (Zoom H1 at level 16, Roland R-05 using Line-in at level 40). Between the pre-amp and the recorders, I find that I usually use between +25dB gain (for loud shows) and +15db gain (for extremely loud shows).

So up to +30dB gain with such low self-noise (and 5V PiP to boot! might even be able to skip the battery box), with 32-float recording, sounds absolutely perfect.

Need more research on this AI smart level feature...Not so sure I would want that for taping.

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 12:39:25 PM »
I'm interested...it looks tiny. This + DPA lavs would be the ultimate micro setup, and no need to attach a phone like DPA's MMA-A.

Any word on pricing?

How is their preamp quality compared to the usual suspects (sound devices)?

Yes the 5v cuts the need for a battery box. I’m interested.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2023, 12:22:06 AM »
They haven't set the price yet, so don't appear too interested in case they are reading here...  :yack:

Offline crunchy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2023, 08:56:22 PM »
It records in stereo? I feel like these small body pack recorders are sometimes mono

EDIT: watched the video. Yes stereo recorder. Looks nice!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 09:01:32 PM by crunchy »

Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2023, 08:39:34 AM »
I can forsee a use case for this.  If I had it today, I'd have a use for it tomorrow :)
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Offline Ronmac

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2023, 06:21:33 AM »
I'm interested...it looks tiny. This + DPA lavs would be the ultimate micro setup, and no need to attach a phone like DPA's MMA-A.

Any word on pricing?

How is their preamp quality compared to the usual suspects (sound devices)?

Yes the 5v cuts the need for a battery box. I’m interested.

Are we certain it will provide +5 to both sides of a unbalanced stereo line in?

Offline 2X2

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2023, 07:17:43 AM »
looks interesting

they said in one of the videos that it would be available in july, yet there's still no pricing

wonder if it will be vaporware like their last 2-ch recorder?

Offline Chrysler

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2023, 12:53:29 PM »
the DPA D:VICE is so small it fits into my coin compartment of my wallet - nobody will ever check that.  super easy so smuggle in.
also you do not need to hide your phone, it raises no suspicion when looking at it and the phones battery lasts for hours for recording 24 bit.
here you will have an extra device with alcaline batteries (that can be connected remotely to - your phone).
unless the recording quality isnt muuuuch better than the DPA D:VICE i don't think this is much of a progress for stealth taping?

« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 01:01:46 PM by Chrysler »
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Offline 2X2

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2023, 06:29:48 PM »
the DPA D:VICE is so small it fits into my coin compartment of my wallet - nobody will ever check that.  super easy so smuggle in.
also you do not need to hide your phone, it raises no suspicion when looking at it and the phones battery lasts for hours for recording 24 bit.
here you will have an extra device with alcaline batteries (that can be connected remotely to - your phone).
unless the recording quality isnt muuuuch better than the DPA D:VICE i don't think this is much of a progress for stealth taping?
yes but the cheapest d:vice+4061s is like $1400

if this is a few hundred dollars as expected its a $500 rig with the numerous cheap plug in power mics

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2023, 08:03:21 PM »
With a babynbox and Schoeps I would be intrigued.

Online jielkade

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2023, 03:49:31 AM »
Competition:


    - https://lectrosonics.com/spdr-stereo-personal-digital-recorder.html

    - Tentacle: not yet

Offline grawk

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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2023, 08:43:38 AM »
the DPA D:VICE is so small it fits into my coin compartment of my wallet - nobody will ever check that.  super easy so smuggle in.
also you do not need to hide your phone, it raises no suspicion when looking at it and the phones battery lasts for hours for recording 24 bit.
here you will have an extra device with alcaline batteries (that can be connected remotely to - your phone).
unless the recording quality isnt muuuuch better than the DPA D:VICE i don't think this is much of a progress for stealth taping?

This recorder is 32 bit with 5v plug in power. I could plug my 4061s straight in and easily have the entire rig self-contained with no wires to show and no real need to check levels.

Sounds like a win to me.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2023, 10:51:27 AM »
You can also use the new version of the Sonosax sx-m2d2 "electret".

Offline hedfro

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2023, 01:24:46 PM »
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Offline kindms

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2023, 03:40:26 PM »
You can also use the new version of the Sonosax sx-m2d2 "electret".

new version ?

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Offline robgronotte

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2023, 05:22:04 PM »
Does anyone know what the "locking" 3.5mm stereo mic / stereo line input means?

Also, I don't know what 24 or 32 bit "float" means, although I imagine it's discussed somewhere on this board - any brief explanation or link would be appreciated.

Offline kindms

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2023, 06:33:44 PM »
Does anyone know what the "locking" 3.5mm stereo mic / stereo line input means?

Also, I don't know what 24 or 32 bit "float" means, although I imagine it's discussed somewhere on this board - any brief explanation or link would be appreciated.

it means the jack is threaded so you can screw down on it if you have that locking nut

24 bit v 32 bit float are different bit depths in recording. 32bit float is newer and can give you more room. thats a quick and dirty. there is a dedicated thread for it if i recall
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Offline robgronotte

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2023, 09:40:12 PM »
Does anyone know what the "locking" 3.5mm stereo mic / stereo line input means?

Also, I don't know what 24 or 32 bit "float" means, although I imagine it's discussed somewhere on this board - any brief explanation or link would be appreciated.

it means the jack is threaded so you can screw down on it if you have that locking nut

24 bit v 32 bit float are different bit depths in recording. 32bit float is newer and can give you more room. thats a quick and dirty. there is a dedicated thread for it if i recall

So you think any microphone with an 1/8" male plug could be locked in so it wouldn't accidentally come out when in use?  If so, that would be a very good feature, but I've never heard of such a thing.

I know what 24 and 32 bit mean, just had never heard of this "float" until very recently and don't know what that really means.

Offline jefflester

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2023, 09:51:48 PM »
So you think any microphone with an 1/8" male plug could be locked in so it wouldn't accidentally come out when in use?  If so, that would be a very good feature, but I've never heard of such a thing.
No, the plug has to be threaded as well. They're mostly common in wireless beltpacks. I'm not even sure if the different manufacturers all use the same one.




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Offline unidentified

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2023, 10:07:33 PM »
"I know what 24 and 32 bit mean, just had never heard of this "float" until very recently and don't know what that really means."

It means you never have to set gain levels again.   

"To put it in perspective, 16-bit audio is capable of recording sound with a dynamic range of up to 96.3 decibels. 24-bit audio recordings can capture a dynamic range of up to 144.5 dB. Meanwhile, 32-bit float audio can capture the absolutely ludicrous range of up to 1,528 dB. That’s not only massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio, but it’s beyond the scale of what even counts as a sound on Earth."  https://www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/


« Last Edit: June 07, 2023, 10:13:56 PM by unidentified »

Offline weroflu

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2023, 06:41:23 AM »
is the electret  sx-m2d2 option an either / or with phantom or can you switch back and forth easily?

Online jielkade

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2023, 06:37:09 PM »
ask mr.SAX

Offline 2X2

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2023, 08:27:22 AM »
"I know what 24 and 32 bit mean, just had never heard of this "float" until very recently and don't know what that really means."

It means you never have to set gain levels again.   

"To put it in perspective, 16-bit audio is capable of recording sound with a dynamic range of up to 96.3 decibels. 24-bit audio recordings can capture a dynamic range of up to 144.5 dB. Meanwhile, 32-bit float audio can capture the absolutely ludicrous range of up to 1,528 dB. That’s not only massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio, but it’s beyond the scale of what even counts as a sound on Earth."  https://www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/

32-bit float is indeed a useful improvement but not the massive savior it is made out to be. 1528 dB of digital resolution is really not "massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio" which has 144dB of resolution, as there does not exist an analog source with more than about 130dB of dynamic range, in theory. In reality, any live concert recording, even a SBD, has a dynamic range of around 100 dB at best, so the advantages over the common 24-bit interfaces, with levels set conservatively, are limited. Audience recordings are more like 70 dB dynamic range with the ambient crowd noise

Offline unidentified

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2023, 10:01:56 AM »
"I know what 24 and 32 bit mean, just had never heard of this "float" until very recently and don't know what that really means."

It means you never have to set gain levels again.   

"To put it in perspective, 16-bit audio is capable of recording sound with a dynamic range of up to 96.3 decibels. 24-bit audio recordings can capture a dynamic range of up to 144.5 dB. Meanwhile, 32-bit float audio can capture the absolutely ludicrous range of up to 1,528 dB. That’s not only massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio, but it’s beyond the scale of what even counts as a sound on Earth."  https://www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/

32-bit float is indeed a useful improvement but not the massive savior it is made out to be. 1528 dB of digital resolution is really not "massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio" which has 144dB of resolution, as there does not exist an analog source with more than about 130dB of dynamic range, in theory. In reality, any live concert recording, even a SBD, has a dynamic range of around 100 dB at best, so the advantages over the common 24-bit interfaces, with levels set conservatively, are limited. Audience recordings are more like 70 dB dynamic range with the ambient crowd noise

True that, but my F3 has already saved my bacon twice when the music took a sudden and dramatic increase in volume, as opposed to the case with the Sony PCM M10 that I was using on a different rig.  The F3 also means that I do not even have to think about what a conservative setting might be at a show of improvised music with a wide dynamic range in a small room. Live recording is stressful enough, so even limited improvements in the number of things to think about can be welcome.   
« Last Edit: June 09, 2023, 10:36:50 AM by unidentified »

Offline dallman

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2023, 11:33:49 AM »
"I know what 24 and 32 bit mean, just had never heard of this "float" until very recently and don't know what that really means."

It means you never have to set gain levels again.   

"To put it in perspective, 16-bit audio is capable of recording sound with a dynamic range of up to 96.3 decibels. 24-bit audio recordings can capture a dynamic range of up to 144.5 dB. Meanwhile, 32-bit float audio can capture the absolutely ludicrous range of up to 1,528 dB. That’s not only massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio, but it’s beyond the scale of what even counts as a sound on Earth."  https://www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/

32-bit float is indeed a useful improvement but not the massive savior it is made out to be. 1528 dB of digital resolution is really not "massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio" which has 144dB of resolution, as there does not exist an analog source with more than about 130dB of dynamic range, in theory. In reality, any live concert recording, even a SBD, has a dynamic range of around 100 dB at best, so the advantages over the common 24-bit interfaces, with levels set conservatively, are limited. Audience recordings are more like 70 dB dynamic range with the ambient crowd noise
This misses part of the point. For me, the advantages of 32Bit Float are most noticeable when the range of a recorded piece is dramatic. I was recording a show last week where the band abandoned the stage and mics and did three songs busking in the audience with no amplification. The first song farthest away from me, I could not even hear. Each song got closer to where i was recording, but for this segment the band was a violin, tambourine and vocal with no amplification. Some storytelling too, which was just impossible to hear. I boosted that part of the show over 20dB and there was no added noise at all. The wave form went from virtually a straight line to full sized, and the sound was superb. Music sweet and vocals clear. It was amazing. I know there are lots who say 32Bit float is unnecessary, but it comes in handy and does no harm. I do not think it is being hails as a massive savior. It is just better than 24Bit as 24 was better than 16.
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Offline unidentified

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2023, 01:28:54 PM »
Concur 100 percent with the above

Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2023, 02:31:14 PM »
32 bit is a godsend when you're not in a position where you can check your levels at all
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2023, 03:16:21 PM »
I totaly agree with Dallman.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2023, 04:55:47 PM »
Without getting too technical.. with 32bit-float recording the real-world dynamic range of the recording is determined by either the limits of the microphones or the the analog input stage of the recorder, whichever is less.  Although neither of those exceed the ~144dB dynamic range of the 24bit-fixed file format*, the absence of any recording trim controls in 32bit-float mode eliminates the possibility of error in setting initial input trim.

In reality, when recording content of low or typical loudness it shields folks from worrying about recording at what would otherwise seem very low input trim settings where the the meters are barely registering.  The important thing is not really the 32bit file format itself (24bits is more than enough) but a good enough analog input stage and the design of the ADC in the recorder. 

Using 32bit-float will require level setting (normalization) and file format conversion afterward, but eliminates level setting in the heat of the moment, be it necessary or not.

Perhaps ironically, it actually prevents tapers from "running levels hot", as many have historically preferred for reasons good or otherwise.  Using a recorder in 32-bit mode, "running hot" can only be achieved within an external preamp.


*A quick search indicates that real-world dynamic range capability of the SD Mixpre recorders is around 142db, the Zoom F series around 131db.
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Offline 2X2

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2023, 06:12:44 PM »

*A quick search indicates that real-world dynamic range capability of the SD Mixpre recorders is around 142db, the Zoom F series around 131db.

by standard measurement 142 dB is impossible. the standard 150 kohm  input noise measurements yields a maximum value of 131 dBu/133 dBv, as even sound devices acknowledges

https://www.sounddevices.com/microphone-preamp-noise/

"EIN is helpful as it removes gain from the equation and makes apples-to-apples comparisons easier. EIN is expressed in dBV or dBu. The lower the number, the better the EIN. This number is properly measured using 150 ohms as an input terminator. The very best EIN that can be achieved is -133 dBV, since this is noise purely from a 150 ohm resistor."

Perhaps there is some yet-unknown input source with greater than 142 dB of range, that they are using to derive this number, or they somehow have a dual-ranging switching analog circuitry similar to the multi-range ADCs

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2023, 06:38:26 PM »
Thanks for that clarification, which further emphasizes the basic point.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2023, 07:16:10 PM »
I wonder if a lesson to be learned from this discussion is that even when recording in 24 bit some of us would be surprised how low we can get away with setting our levels.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2023, 10:16:13 AM »
Try 12db peaks at a noisy venue for 24 bit.
In fact, I'll do that tonight...

Is anyone still pulling at 96kHz or 192?
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Offline SMsound

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2023, 04:52:36 PM »
Try 12db peaks at a noisy venue for 24 bit.
In fact, I'll do that tonight...

Is anyone still pulling at 96kHz or 192?

^^I shoot for -18dB peaks running a MixPre-6 (V1) in 24bit/192. I'm recording classical/opera. Sometimes someone will decide to get a lot louder, and the ambient noisefloor is significantly higher than the noisefloor of the MixPre at -18 after I bring it up in post, so no cost to having the extra safety buffer as far as I can tell. To achieve this, I'm giving most mics around 20-25dB of gain, which happens to be right around where we maximize S/N ratio on most recorders according to the Schoeps talks this year anyways.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2023, 02:51:04 PM »
For me, it's chiefly a matter of not needing to set levels, although in the old days I used to enjoy getting to the end of a classical music recording with the a peak level of 0.5dB.  The brinkmanship would keep me awake during the more tedious recitals.  I am still awaiting the Zoom M3 ordered months ago, which doesn't even bother with a display of any kind.  Just a power button and a record button, and that's it (more or less).  Welcome to the future.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2023, 07:05:33 PM »
Here's a plus for 32bit based on my  >:D experience last night. I forgot to lock the recorder (PCM-A10) and when I checked my levels via phone 10 mins into the first act, levels were maxed and I was hard brickwalling.

Had I been using a 32 bit recorder (like the Deity or F3), this would been recoverable. Luckily I only lost 10 minutes and none of the headliner.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2023, 08:49:08 PM »
For me, it's chiefly a matter of not needing to set levels, although in the old days I used to enjoy getting to the end of a classical music recording with the a peak level of 0.5dB.  The brinkmanship would keep me awake during the more tedious recitals.  I am still awaiting the Zoom M3 ordered months ago, which doesn't even bother with a display of any kind.  Just a power button and a record button, and that's it (more or less).  Welcome to the future.

I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2023, 09:32:53 PM »
I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

It's Zoom's camera-mounted shotgun mic that has its own builtin 32 bit recorder and M/S decoder. I expect the recorder may be similar to the F3, though I haven't compared specs, except that M3 is a self-contained mic + recorder system/not for external mics. Haven't tried it, but it has to be way better than those garbage rode mini shotguns I see on everyone's camera around  LA.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2023, 09:54:48 PM »
I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

It's Zoom's camera-mounted shotgun mic that has its own builtin 32 bit recorder and M/S decoder. I expect the recorder may be similar to the F3, though I haven't compared specs, except that M3 is a self-contained mic + recorder system/not for external mics. Haven't tried it, but it has to be way better than those garbage rode mini shotguns I see on everyone's camera around  LA.

The recorder part might be great, but I don't think we have many data points to judge the quality of Zoom's mic designs other than the modular models made for the H series, and we can't really test the quality of those independent of the recorders they attach to with their proprietary connection. Rode makes some excellent mics at their higher price tiers, but his M3 might be no better than the cheap Rode mini shotguns. For either product, they probably aren't marketing to the same people who might buy a Sanken CMS-50.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2023, 10:53:18 AM »
Good news, D..

Here's a plus for 32bit based on my  >:D experience last night. I forgot to lock the recorder (PCM-A10) and when I checked my levels via phone 10 mins into the first act, levels were maxed and I was hard brickwalling.

Had I been using a 32 bit recorder (like the Deity or F3), this would been recoverable. Luckily I only lost 10 minutes and none of the headliner.

True that if you had been using a 32 bit recorder, the input level would have been out of your control and low enough from the start (extremely low).  However, you can run the A10 in essentially the same way by resisting the temptation to increase recording levels above whatever minimum setting is needed to avoid overload in the loudest recording situations you encounter.

Doing so will not be a problem as long as..

[snip..] the ambient noisefloor is significantly higher than the noisefloor of the MixPre at -18 [of your recording chain, in this case determined by microphone self-noise>recorder EIN] after I bring it up in post, so no cost to having the extra safety buffer [..snip]

SMsound describes classical/opera which has an ambient noise floor that is about as quiet as any taper-recorded live performance ever gets.  The biggest problem for tapers is that not increasing recording level is a very difficult temptation to overcome! it's one that has become ingrained by habit as it used to be important but generally isn't any longer, 32bit or not.

The parallel switching ADC designs and very low EIN of 32bit float recorders help extend dynamic range sufficiently to fully accommodate very low ambient noisefloors that don't occur in concert taper situations.  Most modern recorders that are not 32bit float can be used in essentially the same way as 32bit recorders for concert recording. I use a DR2d for classical recording, which when recording in 24bit probably has a real-world dynamic range of only around 18bit equivalent or so at best.  I've never actually measured it.  But as they should be, the noisefloor of the recordings I make with it are dominated by the ambient noisefloor of the hall.  Even with an effective range of only about 18bit and the DR2d's input levels remaining the same all the time, I use only two different gain settings on the preamp upstream of the recorder- one for classical recording (determined by the need to keep the recording chain noisefloor lower than the ambient noisefloor) and one for very much louder PA amplified stuff (determined by the needed to keep the loudest SPL from clipping).  Once those settings have been determined, there is no need to look at or worry about them again.

Using the Zoom F8 instead and recording in 24bit, I don't even need two gain settings.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2023, 12:00:11 PM »
Good news, D..

Here's a plus for 32bit based on my  >:D experience last night. I forgot to lock the recorder (PCM-A10) and when I checked my levels via phone 10 mins into the first act, levels were maxed and I was hard brickwalling.

Had I been using a 32 bit recorder (like the Deity or F3), this would been recoverable. Luckily I only lost 10 minutes and none of the headliner.

True that if you had been using a 32 bit recorder, the input level would have been out of your control and low enough from the start (extremely low).  However, you can run the A10 in essentially the same way by resisting the temptation to increase recording levels above whatever minimum setting is needed to avoid overload in the loudest recording situations you encounter.

Doing so will not be a problem as long as..

[snip..] the ambient noisefloor is significantly higher than the noisefloor of the MixPre at -18 [of your recording chain, in this case determined by microphone self-noise>recorder EIN] after I bring it up in post, so no cost to having the extra safety buffer [..snip]

SMsound describes classical/opera which has an ambient noise floor that is about as quiet as any taper-recorded live performance ever gets.  The biggest problem for tapers is that not increasing recording level is a very difficult temptation to overcome! it's one that has become ingrained by habit as it used to be important but generally isn't any longer, 32bit or not.

The parallel switching ADC designs and very low EIN of 32bit float recorders help extend dynamic range sufficiently to fully accommodate very low ambient noisefloors that don't occur in concert taper situations.  Most modern recorders that are not 32bit float can be used in essentially the same way as 32bit recorders for concert recording. I use a DR2d for classical recording, which when recording in 24bit probably has a real-world dynamic range of only around 18bit equivalent or so at best.  I've never actually measured it.  But as they should be, the noisefloor of the recordings I make with it are dominated by the ambient noisefloor of the hall.  Even with an effective range of only about 18bit and the DR2d's input levels remaining the same all the time, I use only two different gain settings on the preamp upstream of the recorder- one for classical recording (determined by the need to keep the recording chain noisefloor lower than the ambient noisefloor) and one for very much louder PA amplified stuff (determined by the needed to keep the loudest SPL from clipping).  Once those settings have been determined, there is no need to look at or worry about them again.

Using the Zoom F8 instead and recording in 24bit, I don't even need two gain settings.

Completely agree, the issue was that the unlocked recorder was bumping against other things in my pocket, which was the cause for increased levels. I need things to be as foolproof as possible!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2023, 12:42:07 PM »
I hear that!  Practicality reins supreme when taping in real world situations.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline daze

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2023, 03:14:02 PM »
I tend to set my levels on the conservative side, and when I use my dr2d, even with the gain jacked up to the max, I don't come anywhere near peaking even if I tried.  I record in 24 bit and haven't ever noticed any noise issues due to the conservative levels.  (I have, of course, gotten lots of noise from the screaming hooting whistling screeching cackling talking buffoons that always seem to surround me).  I don't really need any new recorders but I'm interested in seeing the price point on this one, as the size looks like a dream come true.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2023, 04:37:19 PM »
I've a general question which applies to a potential application of these recorders in particular.  Can the timecode capability of these types of recorders sync several of them accurately enough to avoid having to do the align + stretch/shrink thing in post?  I'm not well versed in time-code, but I do know that the accuracy required to sync audio being recorded across multiple machines with phase-coherent accuracy is far far greater than what is required to sync visual frame rates (the difference in frame rate and sample rate is something like two orders of magnitude). Timecode is not wordclock.

In a perfect word I'd use a single recorder similar to this which features 6 or 8 input channels.  Since that's a unicorn wish, I next wonder about running three or four of these recorders sync'd together and controlled by the phone app.  Possible? Realistic?  Phase accurate?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 04:39:32 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2X2

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2023, 08:18:44 PM »
I've a general question which applies to a potential application of these recorders in particular.  Can the timecode capability of these types of recorders sync several of them accurately enough to avoid having to do the align + stretch/shrink thing in post?  I'm not well versed in time-code, but I do know that the accuracy required to sync audio being recorded across multiple machines with phase-coherent accuracy is far far greater than what is required to sync visual frame rates (the difference in frame rate and sample rate is something like two orders of magnitude). Timecode is not wordclock.

In a perfect word I'd use a single recorder similar to this which features 6 or 8 input channels.  Since that's a unicorn wish, I next wonder about running three or four of these recorders sync'd together and controlled by the phone app.  Possible? Realistic?  Phase accurate?

timecode isnt really useful for what we do, all of the recorders are still running on their own clocks

the only thing you are buying with timecode is making the (not-too-hard) process of finding whatever starting sample you align multiple wavs with slightly easier, but they will still drift apart in time, a little, or a lot, depending on gear

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2023, 10:15:57 AM »
As I suspected, thanks.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2023, 12:31:30 PM »
I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

It's Zoom's camera-mounted shotgun mic that has its own builtin 32 bit recorder and M/S decoder. I expect the recorder may be similar to the F3, though I haven't compared specs, except that M3 is a self-contained mic + recorder system/not for external mics. Haven't tried it, but it has to be way better than those garbage rode mini shotguns I see on everyone's camera around  LA.

The recorder part might be great, but I don't think we have many data points to judge the quality of Zoom's mic designs other than the modular models made for the H series, and we can't really test the quality of those independent of the recorders they attach to with their proprietary connection. Rode makes some excellent mics at their higher price tiers, but his M3 might be no better than the cheap Rode mini shotguns. For either product, they probably aren't marketing to the same people who might buy a Sanken CMS-50.
I think there's a dedicated thread somewhere for this device, but as far as I am aware, the only music test from it online is this - https://youtu.be/4A3S1tuq2GQ - where the stereo width indicated on screen is clearly not what is being heard, but I think that's an error in making the video.  Anyway, while it's hard to know what this particular pipe organ should sound like, I would say that to my ears the sound is no disaster, especially at the modest price.  And now, back to the Deity..

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2023, 01:40:09 PM »
any idea of ​​its release date on the market ?

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2023, 01:59:11 PM »
any idea of ​​its release date on the market ?

I asked a German vendor about the release date...his answer was August/September...price unknown!

https://www.marcotec-shop.de/de/deity-pr-2-pocket-audio-recorder.html

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2023, 03:08:29 PM »
any idea of ​​its release date on the market ?

I asked a German vendor about the release date...his answer was August/September...price unknown!

https://www.marcotec-shop.de/de/deity-pr-2-pocket-audio-recorder.html

Gotham Sound says September

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder
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Offline wordgroove

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2023, 03:57:40 PM »
oh boy sooo looking forward to getttng a DR2

thanks y'all for reporting on release date... etc..


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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2023, 06:10:46 PM »
What are the best mics you could power with this unit?

Spec's say:
3V / 5V / LINE Switchable mic power

I think 5V is just under what you'd ideally want for DPA 4060/4061... Maybe the low voltage version of those?
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2023, 01:30:56 PM »
What are the best mics you could power with this unit?

Spec's say:
3V / 5V / LINE Switchable mic power

I think 5V is just under what you'd ideally want for DPA 4060/4061... Maybe the low voltage version of those?

I am 99% sure 4060 & 4061 can be fully powered with 5-10v. 4063 only needs 3v.
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Offline kindms

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2023, 05:24:51 PM »
seems you can control the units with this software

https://www.sidus.link/sidusAudio/software
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2023, 06:43:02 PM »
What are the best mics you could power with this unit?
Spec's say:
3V / 5V / LINE Switchable mic power
I think 5V is just under what you'd ideally want for DPA 4060/4061... Maybe the low voltage version of those?
I am 99% sure 4060 & 4061 can be fully powered with 5-10v. 4063 only needs 3v.

I used the 4060s with the plug in power of the PMD620 at just under 5V and no probs at loud shows or otherwise.
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Offline kindms

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2023, 07:18:21 PM »
this paired with an OG pre-amp would make a cool rig and small footprint and you could stealth it as well

i could also use it as a backup on my m2d2 or primary if i prefer the adac

m2d2>pr-2 would be a really small rig
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2023, 12:55:56 PM »
Still waiting for a date or price announcement on this one.  And an assessment of the preamp/AD virtues.

The stereo input is selectable for line-in or 3V or 5V pip.  Anyone know if the dpa 4060 etc. will run with 5V and this sort of adapter:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275465573952?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&srsltid=AfmBOopwvh2IUurEIoj7ed6-zo_Yv_GA0cIJLRKCsuZDvKEV6IkKpZtg7oc

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2023, 12:19:35 AM »
Answering my own question:  I saw online that someone had measured the PiP open circuit voltage of the Sony D100 at 4.75 volts (most Tascams seem well under 3V), put new batteries in my old D100 and got a pretty good signal from 4060s with this cable.  No recording made to test for noise or other problems, but the response seemed normal enough that I may try the Deity PR-2 when it lands, if the price is okay.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2023, 02:02:46 AM »
Apparently, it's going to be released in September 2023:
https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2023, 02:59:42 PM »
The stereo input is selectable for line-in or 3V or 5V pip.  Anyone know if the dpa 4060 etc. will run with 5V and this sort of adapter:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275465573952?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28&srsltid=AfmBOopwvh2IUurEIoj7ed6-zo_Yv_GA0cIJLRKCsuZDvKEV6IkKpZtg7oc

Should do fine.  5V is what DPA specs as nominal powering voltage for the miniature mics (4063 being the exception). 

That cable looks like the ones many of us here have hacked together in the past.  Assuming its wired with both shield/grounds connnected to sleeve, Left center conductor to tip, Right center conductor to ring.
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Offline wordgroove

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2023, 04:08:48 PM »
is it diety 2? or zoom F3 - how bout some pro cons - d2 vs f3 talks.....???

looks like diety less metal than zoom and more compact? to get in venues stealth
if you don't need xlr

everyones thoughts?


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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2023, 05:30:42 PM »
Looking at the specs, dynamic range is 123 dB. That figure makes me wonder if it really is an autoranging multi-ADC setup like Tascam, Zoom, Sound Devices, and Stagetec employ. Zoom F6 dynamic range is 132 dB using 2 ADCs; SD MixPre-II series is 142 dB using 3 ADCs.

It looks like it can only accept timecode from other Diety units, but an interesting bit from the Gotham video is that the PR-2 can be a timecode source via 3.5 mm TRS output. In theory, than means you could slave or jam sync it to units from other manufacturers, right? The F6 does timecode via 3.5 mm so it would seem like a perfect partner.

Regarding powering DPA lavs: the 406x are supposed to get 8V, so I wonder how compromised their performance is with only 5V. You'd probably be OK with loud sources if you use the 4061, but for what I record I would be concerned about increased self-noise and reduced dynamic range.

Why can't someone make a little recorder like this with PIP settings from 3-9 V (or more)? Sonosax had this figured out many years ago with the miniR82.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2023, 05:46:35 PM »
is it diety 2? or zoom F3 - how bout some pro cons - d2 vs f3 talks.....???

looks like diety less metal than zoom and more compact? to get in venues stealth
if you don't need xlr

everyones thoughts?

The F3 is proven to be a great unit, sounds identical to its F6 and F8 brethren, can power any full-size mic, and is cheap. It's very well built aside from the ridiculous power/REC switch. It needs an external power bank if using P48 mics for any significant amount of time.

The FR-2 will most likely have better industrial design and higher quality materials, and probably a bit more expensive. Much more compact. You'll also be limited in what mics you can use it with without an external preamp or mic battery box.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2023, 06:43:18 PM »

Regarding powering DPA lavs: the 406x are supposed to get 8V, so I wonder how compromised their performance is with only 5V. You'd probably be OK with loud sources if you use the 4061, but for what I record I would be concerned about increased self-noise and reduced dynamic range.

Why can't someone make a little recorder like this with PIP settings from 3-9 V (or more)? Sonosax had this figured out many years ago with the miniR82.

?????

In the parallel universe where I ran a miniR82 for many years, the unit's eight tracks included a maximum of four analogue channels: a line-in on a 3.5mm stereo plug and a mic-in which could be wired for line-in, phantom power or (ONLY) 3V PiP.  Sonosax provided schematics how to wire for phantom or COS11 or DPA4063 mics (both run on 3V), and they sold me a DPA4063 set wired correctly (I think they also sold the Sankens wired).  Here is the schematic:

https://www.sonosax.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/MINIR82-MIC-WIRING.pdf

The later M2D2 preamp/AD originally had no plug-in power options, phantom only, but after a few years I understand they offered an updated version with some sort of PiP, I think it was DPA4060 etc. friendly, but I can't find any info on this update anymore on their website, does anyone know if it's still available and what the mic specs are?

Jeff

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2023, 07:09:10 PM »
thanks for feedback guys

whos getting a diety?

looks like i/m going that way

Taz

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2023, 07:44:11 PM »
If it's reasonably priced I'll likely try it, in spite of the 48 kHz limit (I usually tape at 96 kHz).  I will also be testing if the cable I linked above will power DPA4011 or 4015 caps with the active cable/preamp (these all work with the now deceased MMA-A and iPhone powering).  If it's expensive I'll wait for the rave reviews before biting.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2023, 07:46:08 PM »

Regarding powering DPA lavs: the 406x are supposed to get 8V, so I wonder how compromised their performance is with only 5V. You'd probably be OK with loud sources if you use the 4061, but for what I record I would be concerned about increased self-noise and reduced dynamic range.

Why can't someone make a little recorder like this with PIP settings from 3-9 V (or more)? Sonosax had this figured out many years ago with the miniR82.

?????

In the parallel universe where I ran a miniR82 for many years, the unit's eight tracks included a maximum of four analogue channels: a line-in on a 3.5mm stereo plug and a mic-in which could be wired for line-in, phantom power or (ONLY) 3V PiP.  Sonosax provided schematics how to wire for phantom or COS11 or DPA4063 mics (both run on 3V), and they sold me a DPA4063 set wired correctly (I think they also sold the Sankens wired).  Here is the schematic:

https://www.sonosax.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/MINIR82-MIC-WIRING.pdf

The later M2D2 preamp/AD originally had no plug-in power options, phantom only, but after a few years I understand they offered an updated version with some sort of PiP, I think it was DPA4060 etc. friendly, but I can't find any info on this update anymore on their website, does anyone know if it's still available and what the mic specs are?

Jeff

I was being pretty careless in my response there. I was really thinking of the R82 being a very compact unit that could power phantom mics. I really had no idea what it could do for PIP. Thanks for the details, though.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2023, 08:19:55 PM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #74 on: August 07, 2023, 09:07:30 PM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

"needed" is a loaded word.  The Berlin Philharmonic records their live stuff at 192 kHz, or maybe even 384.  I have tried 192 (and DSD), and decided 96 kHz is fine for me, including editing with Rx.  Some people who do 48 kHz think 44.1 is undesirable.  Quality of AD is not a 1-1 matchup with sampling frequency, either.  So I'm curious about how the Deity implementation of 48 k sounds.

Jeff

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2023, 09:31:58 PM »
Just getting used to the F3 for my low security gigs with NBox Platinum but curious about the Deity until.  For now my high  >:D rig is babynbox dr-2d schoeps MK* but open to reports.  Who says I can't have both.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2023, 10:21:28 AM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2023, 10:27:45 AM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2023, 01:50:59 PM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19
Taz
The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.

I still record at 44.1 kHz. I haven't found any noticeable difference using any other sampling frequency that results in better quality for what I do. I've tried comparisons using up to 96kHz and it just doesn't add anything to what I'm doing except for larger file size. This is for concert recordings that I'm doing as a hobby on my own dime.

When I've had paying gigs I've done all my recordings in 96 kHz sampling freq. More for the client's expectations than anything else.

Interested in this recorder. My small recorder is the Korg MR1 and while it sounds great and is fairly reliable I've had to custom modify it and it is getting a little long in the tooth.

I like the idea of having a recorder that doesn't have any internal mics.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2023, 04:08:51 PM »
Record at whatever sample rate you like at or above 44.1kHz. I don't dismiss folks who claim higher sample rates makes a significant difference to them.  Justified or not, client expectations fall into that category.  Its just that plenty of other things have greater implications. 

It is fun to record bats and bugs or whatever at high rate and playback at a lower rate to make the ultrasonic singing audible, but that's a different thing than the live music focus here at TS.  In regard to music recording, I have experienced higher sample rates sounding somewhat different in some instances, yet suspect that's due to the quality of specific gear, the specific ADC/DAC implementations and surrounding circuitry, rather than something consistent enough to form the basis of a blanket rule I'd feel comfortable relying upon without that kind of careful listening.  So on that cost/benefit basis I record at 24/48kHz as a way of keeping file storage size reasonable - it's consistent with both "the maths" and my listening experiments.

The strongest argument I've heard for higher sample rates for music recording is to provide increased calculation bandwidth during processing.  But processing can be done at a higher rate than the native depth of the source, in addition to being performed in a calculation space of greater bit-depth than that of the native files (which is how all modern DAW software operates).  Just use that 2X, 4X, 8X, or AUTO "up-sample upon render" option in your plugins if they offer it when using a machine capable of the additional processing overhead.

There is actually a rather strong argument for limiting audio bandwidth so as not to exceed the limits of human high-frequency audibility in an excessive way first, prior to processing at a  multiple of the sample-rate, which may be an unexpected benefit of the lower band-pass filtering inherent to 48 and 44.1kHz.


I like the simple function and form factor of this recorder and am quite interested in it, but need more than two channels so will likely continue using DR2d.
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Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2023, 06:02:56 PM »
do u folks think 96khz is needed?
i usually tape in 48 on a sony a19


Taz

The maths is pretty clear. The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem shows that you are able to perfectly reconstruct an analogue sound wave if the sampling rate of the digital recording is at least twice that of the original wave. This means that a 44.1 kHz can perfectly reproduce all frequency content below 22.05 kHz. When I was a teenager, I could only hear up to 20 kHz or so. At 39, this is down to 17 kHz. Your microphone's frequency response often won't be higher than 20 kHz, and if it is, your headphones' often won't be. I can see why you'd want to record at 48 kHz if you are dealing with video (it's the default for DVD and other video content), but CD quality (44.1 kHz) is not only 'good enough' - it reproduces any sound we can hear perfectly. I'd understand the use of higher sampling rates for scientific purposes, but not for listening.

Also, good luck finding a PA that approaches 20K. Many mics don't go out 20k as well, especially when directional components are considered. I think people who grew up with equalizers over-value the significance of even 16K, as the EQ acts as a wide band and influences frequencies below it

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2023, 07:22:28 PM »
Just getting used to the F3 for my low security gigs with NBox Platinum but curious about the Deity until.  For now my high  >:D rig is babynbox dr-2d schoeps MK* but open to reports.  Who says I can't have both.
You can have both (all three really), but they are very different animals. Not sure what a "low security" gig is (I assume that's still  >:D but not 'open taping'? A gig you still have to sneak gear into?) Since the F3 has phantom power the N-Box platinum solution is quite a bit of extra gear over just using the off the shelf solutions like a CMC1L or CCM, which would eliminate the N-Box and extra cabling. Putting aside 32-bit for a moment, depending on your situation, using an F3, over a smaller cheaper common 2-channel recorder like an DR-2D ( or A10,M10, R07, etc) the advantage is not really clear. I'm not sure it outperforms the other recorders significantly enough on unbalanced line in to justify the extra gear. 32bit aside, F3 is certainly not the only one in its class.Centrance Mixerface comes to mind and is about the same size as the F3, The TASCAM DR40 is only slightly larger (and is slimmer and nearly entirely plastic), with the DR100 series stepping up from that in size a bit

Back to the subject of the thread, the Deity PR2 is really nothing like phantom recorders or the smaller line-in recorders. The former is larger and offers mic powering you may not need, the latter cant really power mics at all without additional equipment.

The PR2 looks to be the size of an A10 based on the pictures (size and weight not on product page but you can gauge by the size of the AA batteries). Timecode, 32-bit recording, and the ability to power mics at 5V in the form factor of one of the smallest 2-ch line in recorders is it advantage. First advantage is essentially useless to tapers, the second may be useful (especially given the level display on the pr2 appears to be as crippled as the TRX)  but not really make-or-break, but the ability to properly power two mics at 5V in that form factor is a game changer. Nothing exists like that now. you need to step up to $1000+ solution to find that from Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, Sonosax, etc.... and most are larger and metal. the tentacle track-e comes close, but is only mono and youd need two devices at $600 and then have to sync them in post. Real 5V PIP power opens up proper powering at high-SPL of all lav mics, as well as the higher end DPA series, so more of a breakthrough for DPA guys. for Schoeps guys it seems to be the equivalent of just another A10 with 32-bit float replacing decent level meters.

In reality, implementation matters more than feature set. id rather have a reliable easy-to-use recorder with a battery box than an all-in-one that doesn't bring home the goods every time. So as you said.. i will wait for reports!



 


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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2023, 07:22:45 PM »
hows all this compare to
the Tascam dr10-L?

is this unit up to par with diety and zoomf3?

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2023, 07:28:15 PM »
hows all this compare to
the Tascam dr10-L?

is this unit up to par with diety and zoomf3?
Different animals
DR10-L is one channel, and cannot power either phantom mics or lav mics (in our application)

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2023, 07:31:30 PM »
Different animals
DR10-L is one channel, and cannot power either phantom mics or lav mics (in our application)
------

ok thx u

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2023, 08:20:55 PM »
Different animals
DR10-L is one channel, and cannot power either phantom mics or lav mics (in our application)
------

ok thx u
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2023, 03:23:23 AM »
rairun, what you say is entirely correct with regard to sampling and reconstruction per se. However, any significant signal energy at or above 1/2 the sampling frequency will cause aliasing distortion, and thus we are all sternly commanded to filter out such energy prior to (or as part of) the conversion process.

Significant energy at such frequencies is rare in real-world sound, as opposed to specially generated test signals designed to challenge a recording system. But in order to handle the worst cases without audible aliasing, digital audio systems conventionally use low-pass filtering with stopband attenuation of 60 - 80 dB or even more. This forces those filters to be awfully steep at sampling rates when there isn't much margin between their turnover point and the Nyquist limit (e.g. the narrow interval between 20 kHz and 22.05 kHz in the case of 44.1 kHz sampling).

The anti-aliasing filters in the PCM-F1 were 9th-order IIRC, and the ones in the PCM-1600 and 1610 were 11th or even 13th. That's way more than would almost ever be needed in my opinion, but it's been the general practice for decades. Such filters can have audible effects on impulse response. They can do things that have no counterpart in the real world of sound, such as ringing that starts before an impulse has actually begun (as well as continuing after the sound has stopped, as one might expect).

At higher sampling rates, on the other hand, the filters don't need to be nearly as steep--and even if they are, with their turnover point an octave higher there will still be far less time-domain nonsense below 20 kHz. Thus the impulse response of a system with a higher sampling frequency can be better--even (occasionally) audibly so under certain conditions. That said, you are also perfectly right about the limitations of most playback systems--especially conventional dynamic loudspeakers. Most of the time when people have provably, repeatably heard differences between 44.1 and 96 kHz in controlled tests, they have been listening over electrostatic headphones to specially generated test signals--various chirps and clicks, rather than real-world music, speech or even nature sounds (some of which are much more demanding than ordinary music)--and the people have generally had some training in how to listen critically to those test signals and hear differences. Some percussion instruments generate impulses that might be "diagnostic" for filter problems, though, plus we don't know whether playback systems might get better some day.

There is also a vague general belief that certain post-processing algorithms will generate less distortion if the sampling rate is higher. To me, if that is so, it sounds like a defect in the software--plus I've never seen anyone actually narrow it down to which algorithm or which software this is supposed to maybe happen with, i.e. I think we may be veering into urban-myth territory where that's concerned.

I still generally record at either 44.1 or 48 kHz when I record at all these days, depending on whether my recording will be synched up to video or not. But if I were a recording company (the two or three that are left nowadays) I suppose I would record at 96/24, because who knows--some day bandwidth may be so cheap and playback systems so good that it will matter a little to some people. I don't think that will happen during my lifetime, but that doesn't mean it can never happen.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 06:22:55 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2023, 05:10:34 AM »
If I read right, inputs are LINE, PIP 3/5V on the same jack. I know next to nothing about PIP. I gather when running PIP the input is mic level? If so, would I do any harm (physical or to the signal) running the mic level output from my Baby N-Box using this recorder?

I'm also interested to see how this works for .007 missions and getting past wands and walk-throughs. The metal case makes me a bit nervous, but I think the F3 uses metal too and that's being used in the field for that purpose I believe.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2023, 09:14:44 AM »
I gather when running PIP the input is mic level?

Depends on the implementation, the details of which I don't think are known yet. However, on many small handheld recorders, the option of switching on/off PIP is separate from the choice of input sensitivity (mic/line).  If that is the case with the PR-2, using line input sensitivity with PIP will be possible.

Quote
If so, would I do any harm (physical or to the signal) running the mic level output from my Baby N-Box using this recorder?

Probably not, but that depends on the circuit inside the N-Box.  In all likelihood the N-box is designed to block DC (the PIP voltage from the recorder) applied to its output while allowing the alternating voltage signal of the audio to pass to the recorder.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2023, 11:30:25 AM »
Just getting used to the F3 for my low security gigs with NBox Platinum but curious about the Deity until.  For now my high  >:D rig is babynbox dr-2d schoeps MK* but open to reports.  Who says I can't have both.
You can have both (all three really), but they are very different animals. Not sure what a "low security" gig is (I assume that's still  >:D but not 'open taping'? A gig you still have to sneak gear into?) Since the F3 has phantom power the N-Box platinum solution is quite a bit of extra gear over just using the off the shelf solutions like a CMC1L or CCM, which would eliminate the N-Box and extra cabling. Putting aside 32-bit for a moment, depending on your situation, using an F3, over a smaller cheaper common 2-channel recorder like an DR-2D ( or A10,M10, R07, etc) the advantage is not really clear. I'm not sure it outperforms the other recorders significantly enough on unbalanced line in to justify the extra gear. 32bit aside, F3 is certainly not the only one in its class.Centrance Mixerface comes to mind and is about the same size as the F3, The TASCAM DR40 is only slightly larger (and is slimmer and nearly entirely plastic), with the DR100 series stepping up from that in size a bit

Back to the subject of the thread, the Deity PR2 is really nothing like phantom recorders or the smaller line-in recorders. The former is larger and offers mic powering you may not need, the latter cant really power mics at all without additional equipment.

The PR2 looks to be the size of an A10 based on the pictures (size and weight not on product page but you can gauge by the size of the AA batteries). Timecode, 32-bit recording, and the ability to power mics at 5V in the form factor of one of the smallest 2-ch line in recorders is it advantage. First advantage is essentially useless to tapers, the second may be useful (especially given the level display on the pr2 appears to be as crippled as the TRX)  but not really make-or-break, but the ability to properly power two mics at 5V in that form factor is a game changer. Nothing exists like that now. you need to step up to $1000+ solution to find that from Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, Sonosax, etc.... and most are larger and metal. the tentacle track-e comes close, but is only mono and youd need two devices at $600 and then have to sync them in post. Real 5V PIP power opens up proper powering at high-SPL of all lav mics, as well as the higher end DPA series, so more of a breakthrough for DPA guys. for Schoeps guys it seems to be the equivalent of just another A10 with 32-bit float replacing decent level meters.

In reality, implementation matters more than feature set. id rather have a reliable easy-to-use recorder with a battery box than an all-in-one that doesn't bring home the goods every time. So as you said.. i will wait for reports!

Well, would rather use the NBox Platinum with the actives I have than buying the CCM gear.  Low security is stealth without having to navigate walkthrough or weapons scanners. 

Offline colargol

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #90 on: September 07, 2023, 01:35:05 PM »
Seems this will be delayed…
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #91 on: September 07, 2023, 01:36:30 PM »
Sounds like the price just went up as well
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #92 on: September 07, 2023, 01:42:34 PM »
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #93 on: September 07, 2023, 03:31:47 PM »

^LOL
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2023, 12:01:20 AM »
Too bad, definitely curious to see this one.  The increase in price won't make a difference, the issue is sound and functionality are improved.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 12:09:20 AM by daspyknows »

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #95 on: September 12, 2023, 10:06:04 AM »
Looks like they’ve now differentiated a US and worldwide model. Due to licensing patent tech from Zaxcom?

https://zaxcom.com/company/patents
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2023, 12:18:12 PM »
Nice /s gotta love Zaxcom
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #97 on: September 12, 2023, 04:40:55 PM »
I know Sonosax has had to release two versions of some of their recent recorders (maybe also the M2D2?) because of the Zaxcom patent. It's interesting that Stagetec, Sound Devices, Zoom, and Tascam do not. I wonder if the method by which Zaxcom gets 135 dB dynamic range from their preamps is not by using multiple auto-ranging DACs, or at least not implemented the same way as those other ones.
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #98 on: September 12, 2023, 05:04:09 PM »
^ Sound Devices, at least, has their own patent in this arena. If I recall, it is on the algorithm that they use to combine the streams from the multiple ADCs. Don't quote me on that, though (it has been a while since I read it)...

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2023, 02:16:10 PM »
I see deity have set up a page for a US version, https://deitymic.com/products/pr-2-us/

They write “US sold PR-2 units do not feature the mic pass thru option”, does anyone know what this means?
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Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2023, 02:42:29 PM »
From the non-us version of the page:

MIC PASS THRU

The PR-2 features a toggle switch on the top that allow you to pass the microphone PiP from the output thru to the input. This means you can daisy chain the PR-2 with a transmitter so you can add recording functionality to any transmitter you might own. This also means even if the PR-2 is turned off, the transmitters PiP is still passing thru to power your lavalier.

So my assumption is it's related to the patent discussion above, and you can't record and transmit at the same time.  Probably also means you can't monitor live via the headphones, but that's less clear.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 02:44:42 PM by grawk »
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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #101 on: October 06, 2023, 10:25:57 PM »
I see deity have set up a page for a US version, https://deitymic.com/products/pr-2-us/

They write “US sold PR-2 units do not feature the mic pass thru option”, does anyone know what this means?

From the ex-US product page:

“The PR-2 features a toggle switch on the top that allow you to pass the microphone PiP from the output thru to the input. This means you can daisy chain the PR-2 with a transmitter so you can add recording functionality to any transmitter you might own. This also means even if the PR-2 is turned off, the transmitters PiP is still passing thru to power your lavalier.”
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2023, 12:10:18 PM »
At AES NY yesterday.  The Deity booth didn't have much to show.  No PR-2, not even a demo.  No word on the price.  May begin production in six weeks.

Meh.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2023, 12:23:22 PM »
this year? :clapping:

Offline robgronotte

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #104 on: December 13, 2023, 01:38:11 AM »
Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, how big is this? I can't find dimensions on the website.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2023, 08:05:16 AM »
I've been keeping my eye on this recorder.  I noticed that Gotham Sound mentions a Jan 2024 release date (link below).  Not sure if this is firm or reliable.

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2023, 08:09:30 AM »
i hear its at least as firm as july, august, september, october....

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2023, 08:45:15 AM »
I've been keeping my eye on this recorder.  I noticed that Gotham Sound mentions a Jan 2024 release date (link below).  Not sure if this is firm or reliable.

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

I talked to a Gotham sales rep who I 've done some business with in the past back in September and he said they were firm on October but to anticipate delays - all manufacturers are experiencing delays due to supply chain challenges and then they went and changed the feature set meaning they might have had to redesign the hardware.

I've been watching this but I'm not holding my breath.

I went ahead and replaced the piggy back battery hack solution for my Korg MR1 so I'd have a small line in only recorder.
Honestly I may just keep doing that - it sounds really good and the battery solution is only $20 or so every few years.
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Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2024, 02:55:11 PM »
Well we are into January and still no pricing or delivery date

Why do companies do this?

Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2024, 02:57:26 PM »
Gotham's the one who said it was a January release date, Deity has just said "coming soon".  They're starting to deliver the Theos system, so hopefully the PR-2 isn't too far behind.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2024, 01:35:00 PM »

They announced a change in the feature set - so likely a redesign - a few months back. Not surprised it's taking longer than expected. Reminds me of the Zoom F6. I waited so long for one of those I gave up and got something else then bought a used one for half price on Reverb six months after they were released.

I'm real interested in the Deity. I need a new small 2 channel recorder for lopro stuff. The Korg MR1 I've been using is still working and can do quite a long show after modifying the batteries but I'm not sure how much longer that thing will keep spinning the hard drive. Not having mics built in to it is very appealing for me.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #111 on: January 09, 2024, 04:51:25 PM »
Same here.   Would rather wait until they get it right given the price point.

Offline ideal77dlr

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #112 on: January 11, 2024, 06:45:02 AM »
From ProAV in the U.K:

Thanks for your email.
 
I asked Deity and they’ve responded it is not available just yet, I will ask our web team to change the lead time to reflect this. Apologies for the inaccurate lead time. Hopefully it begins shipping soon, they did not provide me a date.
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Offline Colin Liston

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #113 on: January 11, 2024, 10:00:48 AM »
Occasionally....music mics record

Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #114 on: January 11, 2024, 12:34:13 PM »

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

Gotham's website now says:

Model:
PR-2
Release date: April 2024

Follows the pattern they've been guessing.  When date arrives, add 3 and guess again.
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2024, 01:51:06 PM »
I called Gotham earlier this week and learned that "Call for Price" is just an artifact of their website which defaults to that button when there is no price listed.  I signed up for the notification on the Deity page for the PR-2 when it was announced in the middle of last April, and have heard NOTHING from them in nine months.  Even if they decided to do a redesign this summer, I would expect the new parts to be priced by now, so $TBD even now is odd.  When this was announced, it looked timely and interesting.  Now, I'll likely wait for something better (96 kHz, 4 channel) unless the PR-2 sound is a clear improvement on the MMA-A.

Offline adrianf74

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #116 on: March 11, 2024, 06:00:35 PM »

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

Gotham's website now says:

Model:
PR-2
Release date: April 2024

Follows the pattern they've been guessing.  When date arrives, add 3 and guess again.

Orders from certain “smaller mic builders that share a name where some people get married” ship faster than this thing. Zoom F3 it’ll be methinks.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #117 on: March 11, 2024, 10:51:04 PM »

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

Gotham's website now says:

Model:
PR-2
Release date: April 2024

Follows the pattern they've been guessing.  When date arrives, add 3 and guess again.

Orders from certain “smaller mic builders that share a name where some people get married” ship faster than this thing. Zoom F3 it’ll be methinks.

Comparing Diety to that guy is about as low a blow as you can go. But warranted in this situation.

Face it folks; this thing is either vaporware or endlessly tied up in patent lawsuits.
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Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2024, 08:43:07 AM »
I think the PR2 will show up eventually, but the market for the theos is booming, and they had to redesign both because of the zaxcom patents. 
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Offline unidentified

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2024, 08:53:52 AM »

https://www.gothamsound.com/product/pr-2-pocket-recorder

Gotham's website now says:

Model:
PR-2
Release date: April 2024

Follows the pattern they've been guessing.  When date arrives, add 3 and guess again.

Orders from certain “smaller mic builders that share a name where some people get married” ship faster than this thing. Zoom F3 it’ll be methinks.

Comparing Diety to that guy is about as low a blow as you can go. But warranted in this situation.

Face it folks; this thing is either vaporware or endlessly tied up in patent lawsuits.

To be fair, Church Audio products have actually been delivered and are in widespread use, unlike this vaporware from Deity. Their failure to communicate honestly is particularly galling, given that they are something more than a one-man operation.

Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2024, 08:56:29 AM »

To be fair, Church Audio products have actually been delivered and are in widespread use, unlike this vaporware from Deity. Their failure to communicate honestly is particularly galling, given that they are something more than a one-man operation.

Key difference being Deity hasn't taken anyone's money, they've just announced they're working on the product.  Gotham is the one giving bad dates.  Deity just says "Coming Soon"
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2024, 09:05:52 AM »
Still bet they beat Boeing with the 737 Max 10.  Need to make sure the SD card doesn't blow out.  I will wait patiently.

Offline Rairun

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2024, 05:26:02 PM »
They're taking a while, but the Theos Transmitter is out, and the PR-2 basically looks like a pared down version that can't actually transmit? The Theos is a bit bigger, but presumably uses the same preamps/32-bit float system (and also outputs 3V or 5V), and I think it can just record instead of transmitting. I'd rather wait and spend less money, but I'm a bit surprised no one's put the Theos through its paces in a more rigorous way as a recorder.

https://deitymic.com/products/theos-digital-wireless/
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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2024, 08:53:47 AM »
Has anyone used Deity products before? I've been taping off and on for more than 20 years and have never heard of them.

That doesn't necessarily mean anything, just curious.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2024, 09:00:37 AM »
They started out making mics for "Content Creators", and expanded to wireless and recorders.  Not focussed on tapers at all.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2024, 03:42:14 PM »
They started out making mics for "Content Creators", and expanded to wireless and recorders.  Not focussed on tapers at all.

No one focuses on "tapers" outside of a few small operations popular with people like us. As for major companies prioritizing location music recording, there are only a few left, even at the professional level.

Sound Devices, Zaxcom, Sonosax, Zoom,Tascam, Sony, and Roland seem to be it nowadays.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2024, 07:02:13 PM »
Sound Devices, Zaxcom, Sonosax, Zoom,Tascam, Sony, and Roland seem to be it nowadays.

Although not music related, I immediately thought of Aaton. Just went to their website and saw this:

We are sad to announce that the Aaton-Digital adventure ended on February 15, 2024 by a court judgment.
Three years of covid-19 followed by a long strike by cinema professionals have profoundly affected our sales. Faced with no prospects, the company was liquidated.
We thank all our users and partners for their commitment and passion during the ten years we have gone through together.


edit- some discussion here: https://old.reddit.com/r/LocationSound/comments/1awq2f3/aaton_closed/
« Last Edit: March 14, 2024, 07:04:23 PM by audBall »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2024, 07:40:43 PM »
Sound Devices, Zaxcom, Sonosax, Zoom,Tascam, Sony, and Roland seem to be it nowadays.

Although not music related, I immediately thought of Aaton. Just went to their website and saw this:

We are sad to announce that the Aaton-Digital adventure ended on February 15, 2024 by a court judgment.
Three years of covid-19 followed by a long strike by cinema professionals have profoundly affected our sales. Faced with no prospects, the company was liquidated.
We thank all our users and partners for their commitment and passion during the ten years we have gone through together.


edit- some discussion here: https://old.reddit.com/r/LocationSound/comments/1awq2f3/aaton_closed/

Yes I saw that posted on GS Remote the other day. The people who work with the Cantar machines swear by them.

Aeta stopped making the 4minx recorder awhile back, now only making interview / broadcast equipment. All Nagra recorders appear to be discontinued as well.
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Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #128 on: March 15, 2024, 10:24:16 AM »
They're taking a while, but the Theos Transmitter is out, and the PR-2 basically looks like a pared down version that can't actually transmit? The Theos is a bit bigger, but presumably uses the same preamps/32-bit float system (and also outputs 3V or 5V), and I think it can just record instead of transmitting. I'd rather wait and spend less money, but I'm a bit surprised no one's put the Theos through its paces in a more rigorous way as a recorder.

https://deitymic.com/products/theos-digital-wireless/

From my reading the transmitter only has a single input so you’d be recording in mono.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #129 on: March 17, 2024, 09:24:44 PM »
Quote
From my reading the transmitter only has a single input so you’d be recording in mono.

There is a slew of devices like that - I guess you get what you pay for in terms of features and quality - I have an inexpensive Ulanzi system but have not really tested it to see what happens if I make a stereo recording using its two transmitters with or without connected external mics.  But it would be a somewhat clumsy way of doing things.  I also have a single DJI Mic 2, but being single, although it does 32 bit float, it's only mono. 

Indeed, recording "just" audio these days seems to have become a bit of a olde worlde activity.  These days, if I was asked to record an acoustic concert, and I offered the choice of audio or video with good-enough audio, I think the latter option would be popular.  I wish I had the chance to dangle a remote-controlled camera with a four channel audio system plus external mic above an orchestra - which would cost somewhat less than some of the audio-only equipment that is rusting in my cupboard.  The times they are a-changing...

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #130 on: March 18, 2024, 03:34:45 PM »
^The skill of focused visual imagination may be depreciating.  At least the general appreciation of it seems to have.  Excellent audio will conjure detailed visual imagery in the absence of visual stimuli, but the same doesn't occur in reverse.  Hard to imagine a video-only corollary to audio-only radio.  Silent era film I suppose, but even then my great-grandfather was playing fiddle with his sister on piano in the small home town film-theater.  They reportedly knew just two or three instrumental themes and cycled them over and over again depending on what was going on in the scene, same music every film.  I get that people tend to go for to "easy and obvious" over "quality" most of the time, but the thing that bothers me is how most folks gravitate to mediocre video+audio over really excellent audio on its own without the crappy video.  I'm the opposite and tend to get quickly bored with mediocre video, whereas great audio perks me right up.

Decades ago it was easy, but convincing others of this now seems a near impossible sell.  Still, a few years ago I successfully did so with a guy sitting next to me on a plane.  He was watching a rather meh cell phone video of a concert that I happened to have made a good audio recording of and unusually, had on my phone. We started talking about the concert, about music, about taping, about the video, about audio recording quality, what matters, imagination, how it all fits together.  He then skipped around watching segments of the first set of the concert, after which I suggested he listen to my audio-only recording of the second set through his same headphones.  At first he was hesitant, but I insisted I would not be offended if he got bored at any point and wanted to bail back to the video.  It was so fun to watch him settle into it, turning his head as if to look around at the concert environment he suddenly found himself immersed in, flashing a big thumbs up and a smile a the conclusion of the first tune.  He ended up listening to the entire second set straight through, seemingly loving it.  He couldn't say enough about it afterward as we deplaned and parted ways.  That felt really good, but I've no doubt he went right back to shitty videos the following flight.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #132 on: March 19, 2024, 04:12:51 PM »
I do care about audio quality, but I've noticed that I perceive my own audio recordings to sound better than they really are when they're synced up with video. Also, when I rip audio from an official video stream to listen to it later, it often sounds worse than I remembered.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2024, 09:47:14 PM »
I do care about audio quality, but I've noticed that I perceive my own audio recordings to sound better than they really are when they're synced up with video. Also, when I rip audio from an official video stream to listen to it later, it often sounds worse than I remembered.
In both of those cases, the audio has gone through lossy compression. Depending on what video editors you use, the default settings are not optimized for high quality audio.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2024, 10:51:09 AM »
This thread is sadly relevant to the above points:
https://gearspace.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-recording-amp-production/1424154-thinking-about-getting-out-remote-recording-altogether.html

Ugh.  25 years ago I decided to not pursue recording music as a profession.  That was difficult as it was where my heart was.  Yet other avenues ended up being rewarding in different ways, and I still love recording music on my own terms today.  Many roads, journeys, and destinations.

I do care about audio quality, but I've noticed that I perceive my own audio recordings to sound better than they really are when they're synced up with video. Also, when I rip audio from an official video stream to listen to it later, it often sounds worse than I remembered.

I notice the same, or something similar quite frequently.  Its fascinating.  There is definitely deeper perception stuff going on with this, which is more fundamental than lossy compression degradation.  The second perceptual aspect presents a constant distraction from the focusing of critical perception on the other, acts as a crutch, and sets up a sort of perceptual bait and switch in our brains.

Back in the late 80's I spent hours soldering wiring/soldering switching units on site for a home/car stereo retailer.  While doing so I'd sometimes tune an FM radio to the bottom end of the FM dial and pickup the audio from channel 6 TV.  Fascinating to listen to some of the advertisements and syndicated TV shows sans video. Even with my concentration strongly focused on another task, my awareness of auditory details, sound editing, and all kinds of interesting auditory aspects was so interestingly heightened in comparison to listening while watching TV normally with the video content present.  It was fun.  Some ads didn't work at all.  Some shows were terrible, others amazingly entertaining.  Reruns of original Star Trek worked great and were almost like a radio drama, with much better radio-suited Foley than Gilligan's Island.

[/OT discussion from Diety PR-2]
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2024, 10:43:25 AM »
finally an update from andrew on ship date and price

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd7aGhDmNOM

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2024, 10:49:12 AM »
you got me
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2024, 02:09:06 PM »
 :yack: :clapping:
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2024, 03:39:47 PM »
Well played, sir.  Well played.  :D
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #139 on: April 07, 2024, 10:21:48 AM »

Quote
In both of those cases, the audio has gone through lossy compression. Depending on what video editors you use, the default settings are not optimized for high quality audio.
I'll throw in a tiny mention of the DJI Pocket 3 video recorder, which can be set to record in wave format rather than embedding lossy AAC in the video file - but the source has to be its built in mics - although the stereo image from the 3 capsules is actually pretty good.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2024, 05:17:55 PM »
Mics: Sennheiser MKH 8040, Sennheiser MKH 8020, AT BP4025, AT 853 cards, CA CAFS, CA 14 Omnis, CA 11 (Cards + Omnis), Soundman OKM II Classic
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #141 on: April 09, 2024, 05:18:48 PM »
it’s a transmitter for handheld and mini xlr microphones
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #142 on: April 14, 2024, 09:11:03 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs_lOPIZc-U

It's going to start shipping next month, BUT they've changed the specs: it will only support 32-bit float in MONO. Stereo is 24 bit only. If the pre-amps are clean, I can still see it being a very good recorder (small, 5V PiP), but the lack of 32-bit float is really disappointing after all this time waiting.
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #143 on: April 14, 2024, 09:19:59 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs_lOPIZc-U

It's going to start shipping next month, BUT they've changed the specs: it will only support 32-bit float in MONO. Stereo is 24 bit only. If the pre-amps are clean, I can still see it being a very good recorder (small, 5V PiP), but the lack of 32-bit float is really disappointing after all this time waiting.

Wha....?

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #144 on: April 14, 2024, 09:22:26 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs_lOPIZc-U

It's going to start shipping next month, BUT they've changed the specs: it will only support 32-bit float in MONO. Stereo is 24 bit only. If the pre-amps are clean, I can still see it being a very good recorder (small, 5V PiP), but the lack of 32-bit float is really disappointing after all this time waiting.

Wha....?

My exact reaction. They've updated the specs here: https://deitymic.com/products/pr-2/
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #145 on: April 15, 2024, 02:43:39 AM »
Also battery life: “Stereo: 15hrs (24-bit) with 16GB Card”

This is such a disappointment. I’ve been waiting for this to decide on buying and selling some equipment, and looking forward to a more organised inventory.

My Roland R-07 is better than this, it has the same battery life whilst recording a safety stereo track, which is the next best thing to 32-bit stereo recording. Simultaneous 24-bit stereo recordings, with one a few dB lower, is far more useful than a single mono 32-bit recording.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2024, 03:04:48 AM by adrianb »
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #146 on: April 15, 2024, 03:21:51 AM »
I have 3 M-10's to wear out first. :lol:

If the PR-2 proves not to be vaporware I'll get one, I suppose...

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #147 on: April 15, 2024, 07:25:16 AM »
5V PIP, 24bit, 15hrs on 2 AAs, small device without attached mics.  Still checks a lot of boxes. 
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #148 on: April 15, 2024, 08:12:23 AM »
Well, it is made with filmmakers in mind who rarely need/use stereo, so not surprising but disappointing never-the-less from my perspective.

I should be hard pressed to buy a stereo non-32bit recorder at this point in time, but if everything else turns out to be perfect, it could be an interesting unit.
Deity products however usually needs a few firmware update iterations before they perform their best, so I don’t recommend being an early adopter - unless that’s your thing.
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Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #149 on: April 15, 2024, 09:39:49 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs_lOPIZc-U

It's going to start shipping next month, BUT they've changed the specs: it will only support 32-bit float in MONO. Stereo is 24 bit only. If the pre-amps are clean, I can still see it being a very good recorder (small, 5V PiP), but the lack of 32-bit float is really disappointing after all this time waiting.

32-bit is probably the least appealing feature for me
that interview is... something
its almost as if they dream up all these hypothetical products with feature sets, print cases for them, and dont even design working prototypes until a year later

extra bits wont buy you anything if the preamps are junk... "TDB", as they say.

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #150 on: April 15, 2024, 10:16:49 AM »
extra bits wont buy you anything if the preamps are junk... "TDB", as they say.

TDB... lol.  Fitting, no?
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #151 on: April 15, 2024, 10:21:04 AM »
extra bits wont buy you anything if the preamps are junk... "TDB", as they say.

TDB... lol.  Fitting, no?
Theyre kinda killin it these days!
maybe there is hope for Deity to save face

Offline breakonthru

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #152 on: April 15, 2024, 10:37:27 AM »
also just because its 24-bit doesnt mean it cant be well implemented. take for example the dpa d:vice which is arguably one of the most adequate implementations of a basic pre and AD for our purposes. it uses the AKM5552VN which has 115dB of dynamic range

https://www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-adc/ak5552vn/ak5552vn-en-datasheet.pdf

a 5572 which still has relatively low power consumption gains 6 dB on this

https://www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-adc/ak5572en/ak5572en-en-datasheet.pdf

a 5578 with the channels summed can gain 6dB more, albeit being probably at the practical limits for power consumption

https://www.akm.com/content/dam/documents/products/audio/audio-adc/ak5578en/ak5578en-en-datasheet.pdf

good IC pres are cheap and common but it really depends on how much board space they can devote to a good analog gain stage. cleaner ADCs reduce the need for analog gain stage to an extent

all of this hits up against the wall of EIN of about 131dB. which easily fits into a 144dB 24bit container


 

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