Topic: Numerous Questions from a Total Gnewb with a New Rig

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

You may or may not remember me from this thread a month ago, but I actually ended up getting the Olympus LS-100 'cause of how clean the preamps are. The equipment I currently have is as follows: Berliner CM-33 mics (with foam screens), Olympus LS-100 recorder, Shure A27M Stereo Stand, Monster XLR cables, and a Duracell Power Bank as backup power. I will be doing my first serious practice recording over the weekend, of an extended jamsession in a studio me and a few other musicians rent out, and the following week, I will be recording a guitar duo I am friendly with at a bar gig. I've done a lot of independent research (including heavily lurking these forums) but would like to be better prepared, so I'd heavily appreciate any help with the following issues.

1. The Shure Vert Bar; it's much easier to use than a crummy standard t-bar, but I have essentially zero confidence in my ability to correctly position the mics according to different stereo techniques. I've mostly been toying with X-Y and ORTF, just to see how quickly I can set it up, but the degree markings at the top of the tool move during adjustment, and I always end up feeling uncertain about the placement. I'm so unsure that I'm thinking of blowing even more money on the InVision Stereo Pair Kit ($135) or even a Grace SpaceBar ($285).

How do you folks use this bar efficiently?
Should I buy a protractor and ruler to use in conjunction with it?

Pictures of successful setups using the Shure Vert Bar would help, as I've tried adjusting the mics according to Shure's own manual and the TapersSection Mic Config Template but they don't ever seem to line up.

2. I've experimented with the LS-100's internal mics and even the Berliners (in no precise configuration though), and the recorder's sound clarity lives up to the hype, but I'm still unsure about what settings will be optimal in the small studio I rent out (and the bar gig after that for that matter). The studio is small and probably only 25x40 feet with a 12-15 foot high ceiling. I play electric bass through a mid-sized Hartke amp, along with a drummer and a guitarist who also employs a mid-sized amp, but occasionally hooks up to the shitty PA there. Anyway, it gets LOUD in there.

Should I set the XLR gain on the LS-100 to Hi or Lo?
How high do you think I should turn up the rotary gain knobs in conjunction with that?
When monitoring the levels, I'm simply making sure that they don't go into the red (indicating clipping and/or distortion), right?
Should I turn on the music-specific limiter?
Enable the low-cut filter?

Also, what stereo recording technique would be good for loud, amplified music in a room that small (X-Y, ORTF, NOS... or something else)?

3. In return for your kindness, do you guys want me to run any tests on the LS-100 and/or CM-33s for you at the studio? I'll gladly try different mic configurations and such (if you can help me figure out how to do them correctly) and post the recordings.

Thanks a ton in advance!

P.S. I have some pictures of my equipment, so if anyone is curious to see, just ask and I'll post 'em up.
P.P.S. I am currently deciding on a stand for personal use, but in the meantime can just use the ones at the studio.
P.P.P.S. I don't have any useful info about the environment at the bar gig I'll be recording at yet, so I'll make a separate thread for that when the time comes.

[Phil Zone]

Ok my advice though many disagree with me, and that's fine, but on mic patterns if its to tricky spread, using an estimate around 10 inches and point them at the speakers, this is what I USSUALY do, sometimes I go real wide when I have a great spot with low crowd noise. So I would just get them pointed like that for now, see how you like the sound and if it doesn't work try something different. Everyone can shun me for saying this, but I have never done an exact stereo pattern, I just eye ball it and guess to what would work best in the room.

As for the recorder, I'm not acquainted with it, but I would say record around 12db at the lower points and be maxing out around -6-4 db. That way you can relax and not worry about peaking,  was always very careful when I had just started and ran way to low but if you normalize it in post, it came out just fine. Never use a limiter and never use a low cut filter. Always adjust it when editing afterwards. If you cut it and it comes out needing more bass it will sound funky. And limiters can be good if running very hot, but they can kick in a kill the sound level differences and take away from awesomeness. And really as long as you set your levels right you never have to worry. So during the tuning stage my recorder usually runs around -18db and when playing the opening song it's around -12db and when serous jams go it gets around -6db. And by the end of a set I'm usually around -4db peaking because they get louder as time progresses.

Hope this helps, it's just my opinions, no word of god.

Good luck and remember just have fun! It's all about expirementing and finding what fits your taste. Sorry if it makes no sense and I just rambled, but that's my train of thought

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Thanks for the advice Phil Zone. Your input on levels, gain and post-processing is definitely helpful. In regards to mic positioning though, I was thinking about just going 'organic' and eyeballing it too, but I feel like I should build some experience in more precisely setting up stereo configurations before I start doing that. As it currently stands, I have zero experience doing live recording, so I want to start off with a good foundation in the basics before I let my intuition guide me. I'm approaching this like I did with bass guitar when I started out, where I had to at-least get comfortable with a fingerpicking technique, and get a few scales & chord progressions down pat, before I could start improvising. I am a relative neophyte in this world though, so I do appreciate any and all guidance.

[Phil Zone]

Thanks for the advice Phil Zone. Your input on levels, gain and post-processing is definitely helpful. In regards to mic positioning though, I was thinking about just going 'organic' and eyeballing it too, but I feel like I should build some experience in more precisely setting up stereo configurations before I start doing that. As it currently stands, I have zero experience doing live recording, so I want to start off with a good foundation in the basics before I let my intuition guide me. I'm approaching this like I did with bass guitar when I started out, where I had to at-least get comfortable with a fingerpicking technique, and get a few scales & chord progressions down pat, before I could start improvising. I am a relative neophyte in this world though, so I do appreciate any and all guidance.

Then I think you answered you question. I'd go out and get a protractor, or even if you want I have one I would give you, send me a message and ill mail it to you. As for patterns, my favorite is DIN, which is 90 degrees 20cm spread from capsule to capsule. Or maybe ortf which is I think 135 degrees at like 17cm, though I think that's wrong. But the furthur back from the source the less of an angle I would use so up close like on stage go 135 degrees, but by the board in a big room go maybe 70 degrees or whatever angle it takes to point them at the speaker array.

Let me know if you want that protractor, I'm happy to give it to you.

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

...Let me know if you want that protractor, I'm happy to give it to you.

LoL on the hefty side. While I'm not opposed to a free protractor, I can definitely afford a new one. Curious as to what model you use though, 'cause there are as many protractors to choose from as there are stars in the sky. If I like it and it's out of production or unattainable in my area, I might take you up on the offer  . Also, this degrees thing has me confused at times... as I've unfortunately never been good with visualizing the maths. When they say 135, 110 or 90 degrees, it always means 'degrees from parallel', yes? Because that's how I've been interpreting it every time.

[Phil Zone]

'degrees from parallel', yes? Because that's how I've been interpreting it every time.

yes

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Thank goodness. Looking forward to more input (and opportunities for free stuff  ).

[chinariderstl]

Those Berliner are sweet first mics.  I've been tempted to pic up a pair just to have them.  When I first started taping, I always carried a ruler and protractor in my bag to measure mic angles and the distance between the middle of the caps.  I pretty much always tape DIN (mics angled at 45 degrees pointing (more or less) at the speaker stacks / PA) with 20 cm separation between the middle of the caps.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Stereo-Techniques/DIN-Stereo.aspx

I typically run them around 8 or 9 feet in the air, to get above a lot of the noise and chatter.  Depending on how high up the speakers are, you can go even higher.  I also try to gauge the distance between the left and right stacks and try to set up dead center there, equidistance back from the source source.  So if the PA / stacks are 40' split, I try to get back around 40'.  That's how I roll, I am sure others will have additional suggestions.

If you have a stand / tri-pod, I also tape down the legs with gaffers tape so no moron kicks it over.  If it's in a dark room, I sometimes will use neon yellow or neon pink gaff tape to make it pop.  I also sometimes afix a small LED flashlight to one of the standlegs, pointing to the floor to illuminate the area.

If it is an option, tape with a friend who can help guard your stand and make beer runs for you.   

[page]

Based in Japan? Just curious.

[DigiGal]

...Let me know if you want that protractor, I'm happy to give it to you.

LoL on the hefty side. While I'm not opposed to a free protractor, I can definitely afford a new one. Curious as to what model you use though, 'cause there are as many protractors to choose from as there are stars in the sky. If I like it and it's out of production or unattainable in my area, I might take you up on the offer  . Also, this degrees thing has me confused at times... as I've unfortunately never been good with visualizing the maths. When they say 135, 110 or 90 degrees, it always means 'degrees from parallel', yes? Because that's how I've been interpreting it every time.

Looking down on the mics; ORTF is specifically defined as 110° with capsule centers 17cm as illustrated below, using any other angle or capsule distance is not called ORTF 

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Those Berliner are sweet first mics.  I've been tempted to pic up a pair just to have them.  When I first started taping, I always carried a ruler and protractor in my bag to measure mic angles and the distance between the middle of the caps.  I pretty much always tape DIN (mics angled at 45 degrees pointing (more or less) at the speaker stacks / PA) with 20 cm separation between the middle of the caps.

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Stereo-Techniques/DIN-Stereo.aspx

I typically run them around 8 or 9 feet in the air, to get above a lot of the noise and chatter.  Depending on how high up the speakers are, you can go even higher.  I also try to gauge the distance between the left and right stacks and try to set up dead center there, equidistance back from the source source.  So if the PA / stacks are 40' split, I try to get back around 40'.  That's how I roll, I am sure others will have additional suggestions.

If you have a stand / tri-pod, I also tape down the legs with gaffers tape so no moron kicks it over.  If it's in a dark room, I sometimes will use neon yellow or neon pink gaff tape to make it pop.  I also sometimes afix a small LED flashlight to one of the standlegs, pointing to the floor to illuminate the area.

If it is an option, tape with a friend who can help guard your stand and make beer runs for you.   

I was inspired to pick up the pair because of the fellow on this site who tapes with them and loves 'em. Great advice and thanks! Do you know if DIN is possible with the Shure Vert Bar?

Based in Japan? Just curious.

Nope. New York. Love Japanese food and music, though detest what their country has done to the Ainu people.

...Let me know if you want that protractor, I'm happy to give it to you.

LoL on the hefty side. While I'm not opposed to a free protractor, I can definitely afford a new one. Curious as to what model you use though, 'cause there are as many protractors to choose from as there are stars in the sky. If I like it and it's out of production or unattainable in my area, I might take you up on the offer  . Also, this degrees thing has me confused at times... as I've unfortunately never been good with visualizing the maths. When they say 135, 110 or 90 degrees, it always means 'degrees from parallel', yes? Because that's how I've been interpreting it every time.

Looking down on the mics; ORTF is specifically defined as 110° with capsule centers 17cm as illustrated below, using any other angle or capsule distance is not called ORTF 

I figured. I have read that people experiment with the distance, but it seems like if they were doing that, it would not longer be true ORTF.

[Brian Skalinder]

FWIW, instead of a physical protractor, I've often used a protractor app.  Most recently Line Tools' protractor, which allows you to use the mobile phone's camera to measure the angle of the mics.  But there are other apps that do the same thing.

[Phil Zone]

FWIW, instead of a physical protractor, I've often used a protractor app.  Most recently Line Tools' protractor, which allows you to use the mobile phone's camera to measure the angle of the mics.  But there are other apps that do the same thing.

Wow that's really neat, and amazing

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

FWIW, instead of a physical protractor, I've often used a protractor app.  Most recently Line Tools' protractor, which allows you to use the mobile phone's camera to measure the angle of the mics.  But there are other apps that do the same thing.

Too bad I recently ditched my smartphone because I felt it was changing the way I think. Just bought an aluminum protractor for now. Also, bump for more input.

[Gutbucket]

The Shure Vert is a great mount, but it can make it tricky to get the angles and spacing the way you want them. You sort of need to adjust both things at once, and double check each again. 

No need for a protractor for setting up the most popular standard go-to stereo configurations, which is sort of hard to use with the mics anyway.  Just print out a paper copy of the mic template PDF and hold that up over or under the mics when you are adjusting angle and spacing.  Details are in this thread.

A few other things:

A fist held at arms length appears about 10 degrees wide.  You can use that to measure angles by squinting with one eye open and aligning the edge of your fist with objects on the walls of the venue then adding fist-increments to approximate the angle between things.  Or start from center and measure outwards by 10 degree increments. Once you've made mental notes of distant items which subtend the edge of the angle as seen from the micstand, you can sight along the mic bodies to point them at those marks.

In general, the narrower the angle between the two mics, the wider apart they need to be - conversely, the closer they are together the wider the angle required between mics.

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

The Shure Vert is a great mount, but it can make it tricky to get the angles and spacing the way you want them. You sort of need to adjust both things at once, and double check each again. 

No need for a protractor for setting up the most popular standard go-to stereo configurations, which is sort of hard to use with the mics anyway.  Just print out a paper copy of the mic template PDF and hold that up over or under the mics when you are adjusting angle and spacing.  Details are in this thread.

A few other things:

A fist held at arms length appears about 10 degrees wide.  You can use that to measure angles by squinting with one eye open and aligning the edge of your fist with objects on the walls of the venue then adding fist-increments to approximate the angle between things.  Or start from center and measure outwards by 10 degree increments. Once you've made mental notes of distant items which subtend the edge of the angle as seen from the micstand, you can sight along the mic bodies to point them at those marks.

In general, the narrower the angle between the two mics, the wider apart they need to be - conversely, the closer they are together the wider the angle required between mics.

Thanks bucket! I actually printed this out and laminated it. Sitting in the back layer of my gear bag along with a laminate of the A27M's manual. Still feel it would be a bit too approximate without the protractor though. Hope I'll eventually be able to feel comfortable eyeballing most configurations. Does anyone know of a mod for the vert bar that keeps the degree markings stationary?

[Marshall7]

Here's what you need

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/spacebar/spacebar_stereo.html

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Here's what you need

http://www.gracedesign.com/products/spacebar/spacebar_stereo.html

Looks amazing and I was considering it, but seeing as I've already spent ~$1000 dollars on my gear thus far (including things not listed; like fancier headphones, a padded carrying case, shipping and handling etc...), I'm in no financial position to purchase something like that yet  Hopefully I'll get comfy with the shure vert bar for now.

[Gutbucket]

Does anyone know of a mod for the vert bar that keeps the degree markings stationary?

I find those marks useless anyway since most any mic clips screwd to the bar are also angle adjustable, compounding the angles.  It's usually a puzzle to get the spacing and angle I want. Oftentimes I can achieve the same mic arrangement with the bar attachments either opposing, both facing forward, or some other angle depending on the angle of the clips and the position of the mics in them.

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Alrightos. So I've come to the conclusion that the vert bar is ideal for X-Y and a standard t-bar is better for ORTF. I'll be making some recordings in the studio tomorrow, switching between both techniques (and using my protractor to make sure the mics are aligned accurately). Will post samples for anyone interested in what a pair of solid mics (the Berliners) sound like plugged directly into the Olympus LS-100 on various settings. Thanks for all the input guys!

By the way, if anyone in the NYC area (preferably Brooklyn or Manhattan) would be willing to let a noob (me) shadow them at a not-too-crowded show (and ideally a free one) in the future, so I could learn some things, that would be amazing. Let me know.

[JimmieC]

Have always loved the vert bar but now love the active bars.

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Have always loved the vert bar but now love the active bars.

finally figured out how to do ORTF with it. took a bit of tinkering, especially because the berliners are such small mics. will be recording about 2 hours in the studio today in ortf and two hours in x-y. will post result later this week.

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

wowowow. cutting up the recordings into tracks now and the one done in ORTF sounds more accurate, crisp and significantly more balanced, than the X-Y recording. i guess ORTF is the way to go in a smaller space? anyway, samples 'ell be up this week. btw, the ls-100 and cm-33 play very well together. notable clarity.

[Phil Zone]

I always find xy to be very "airy" and doesn't give enough substance to me

[OnamaeWaNanDesuKa]

Alright, here you folks go!

Lineage: Berliner CM33s > Olympus LS-100 (LO XLR Gain & Level Dials set to about 6) > WAV > MacBook Pro > Audacity (L-R Channel Balance & Fades) > FLAC > Mp3 (w/XLD using LAME 3.99.5)

These were recorded with mics arranged according to ORTF, as close to the front-center of the studio as possible:
- http://picosong.com/qB49 (from the short peak of a spontaneous jam)
- http://picosong.com/qB4A (from jamming out Fire on The Mountain)

These were recorded with mics arranged according to X-Y (90°), as close to the front-center of the studio as possible:
- http://picosong.com/qB4p (from a short, spontaneous jam, that the drummer abruptly killed)
- http://picosong.com/qB5n (from a somewhat extended, spontaneous jam)

This was a bit of a rusty session to begin with (drummer was tired, guitarist had work early the next day), plus I (bassist) ripped into one of the calluses on my fingerpicking hand, mid-way through the night, so my playing got pretty, pretty clunky towards the end of the ORTF recording, carrying into the X-Y as well. Regardless, I think the sound is much more accurate with ORTF, and I will likely be using that stereo technique for all subsequent recordings in the studio I currently rent out. Again, if anyone is interested in hearing more, or different types of recordings (musical or not), with either the Berliners, or the LS-100's internal mics, let me know. Enjoy, and I hope this is useful to at-least one person.

P.S. I was wrong about the initial measurements of the studio. It is closer to 20x12 feet, with a 9 foot high ceiling. Guitarist plays through an amp, which is mic'd and sent through two shitty PA speakers, set directly behind the drummer, who is in the back-center of the room. My rather loud hartke bass amp is about 6 feet from the back of the room, hanging out on the far-left side, angled towards the center-right of the room.

[F.O.Bean]

You don't need the grace bar. I ran a vert bar with my AT8415 shocks and my 480s for YEARS and never used anything but my eyes. It's very simple to find out DINa/DIN/NOS since they're all 90* angles. Also, like Cam said, I ALWAYS use a small LED flashlight on my stand pointing down at my stand legs so folks don't trip over my stand, but I mainly only do that when I'm FOB/DFC, which is most of the time

If it is LOUD, then I would assume the gain setting should be on LOW Practice in your house with your stereo on HIGH, and put your mics just a couple feet away, and play like you're at a loud venue or bar!