Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: 24 bit vs 16 bit  (Read 6821 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gusbud1

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
  • Gender: Male
  • I need more cowbell.
24 bit vs 16 bit
« on: June 01, 2006, 12:14:42 PM »
I am finally upgrading my dat to a solid state recorder, but truthfully I know nothing about 24 bit recording.  Can 24 bit recordings even play on anything?  At one time I heard it was mostly for archival purposes, until technology caught up.  Is that still the case?  If I record in 24 bit how do I process it or resample.  I am sure there is alot of information out there on the subject, if someone would be kind enough to point the way.

Thanks
eathworks sr78(L)>rode nt2a (c-omni)>earthworks sr78(R)>sound devices 302>apogee minime 24/96khz s/pidf>tascam hd-p2

Offline terrapinj

  • Jonesin' for Tunes
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6553
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 12:22:36 PM »


 ;D

all the questions you ask have been discussed many times over here. playback technology exists and is coming down in price, music is burned onto various formats of DVD. pretty much all the major audio software programs have dither/resample functions.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2006, 12:45:58 PM by terrapinj »
JW mod AKG 460b (ck61/ck63 or mk46/ck1x/ck3x)>  EAA PSP-2 > 722

Segue Dogstar XLRs and Interconnects

ISO: (2) ck2x

Offline audBall

  • Trade Count: (37)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • Posts: 6479
  • Gender: Male
  • Feel brand new about it
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2006, 12:24:10 PM »
I am finally upgrading my dat to a solid state recorder, but truthfully I know nothing about 24 bit recording.  Can 24 bit recordings even play on anything?  At one time I heard it was mostly for archival purposes, until technology caught up.  Is that still the case?  If I record in 24 bit how do I process it or resample.  I am sure there is alot of information out there on the subject, if someone would be kind enough to point the way.

Thanks

If you record in 24bit and want to listen on a CD, you will need to first dither and resample (assuming you were sampling > 44.1).  Or you can burn them as DVD-Audio and listen at the full resolution.  Of course, you need a DVD player that accomodates DVD-A.  You can also listen to them on your computer, but it's nice to have some kind separate D/A to keep noise issues from occurring

Check the playback forum or the search function.  There's oodles of info here and I'm sure others will have better, more in depth responses than I  :P
mg m20.21.23 ■ akg ck61.62.63 »  nbob■naiant
aercomp2 ■ v2∞3 ■ sx-m2d2
d100 ■ pmd661 ■ r44ocm ■ f3

Offline Scooter

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2006, 01:24:23 PM »
website under my avatar has info...

http://home.kc.rr.com/snoof
MBHO 603a(ka200n/ka500hn) >
R-44, or H120

LMA Recordings

Offline kennedy

  • Trade Count: (14)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3725
  • Gender: Male
  • Lezzy 🔥👁👁🖊🍻😘😷😍😷
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2006, 03:57:17 PM »
I am finally upgrading my dat to a solid state recorder, but truthfully I know nothing about 24 bit recording.  Can 24 bit recordings even play on anything?  At one time I heard it was mostly for archival purposes, until technology caught up.  Is that still the case?  If I record in 24 bit how do I process it or resample.  I am sure there is alot of information out there on the subject, if someone would be kind enough to point the way.

Thanks


another UT taper +t.....
pm sent

Offline Chuck

  • Trade Count: (42)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10811
  • Gender: Male
  • time between the notes...
    • My recordings on the LMA
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2006, 07:31:51 PM »
I've been doing some testing and thinking about this, since I have the ability to record at 24/96 if I want...
I'm starting to think 24/44.1 is the way to go. With 24/44.1 you only have to dither, no resample for making CD's. I hear a difference between 24 bit and 16 bit, so it do believe it's worth moving up in bit rate. I haven't seen or heard the benefits from moving up in sample rate.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline terrapinj

  • Jonesin' for Tunes
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6553
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2006, 08:04:50 PM »
I've been doing some testing and thinking about this, since I have the ability to record at 24/96 if I want...
I'm starting to think 24/44.1 is the way to go. With 24/44.1 you only have to dither, no resample for making CD's. I hear a difference between 24 bit and 16 bit, so it do believe it's worth moving up in bit rate. I haven't seen or heard the benefits from moving up in sample rate.

it's my understanding to burn to DVD it needs to be at least 48, so you would have to upsample in the future to put the 24bit on DVD. please correct me if I am wrong. it only takes a few minutes to resample.
JW mod AKG 460b (ck61/ck63 or mk46/ck1x/ck3x)>  EAA PSP-2 > 722

Segue Dogstar XLRs and Interconnects

ISO: (2) ck2x

Offline Chuck

  • Trade Count: (42)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10811
  • Gender: Male
  • time between the notes...
    • My recordings on the LMA
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2006, 08:26:08 PM »
I've been doing some testing and thinking about this, since I have the ability to record at 24/96 if I want...
I'm starting to think 24/44.1 is the way to go. With 24/44.1 you only have to dither, no resample for making CD's. I hear a difference between 24 bit and 16 bit, so it do believe it's worth moving up in bit rate. I haven't seen or heard the benefits from moving up in sample rate.

it's my understanding to burn to DVD it needs to be at least 48, so you would have to upsample in the future to put the 24bit on DVD. please correct me if I am wrong. it only takes a few minutes to resample.

Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I can't play DVD-A's. I can make an audio only video DVD and play it in my DVD player. But, I'm not sure if it has to be 48kHz.

As far as one more step, I'm a minimalist and think it's best to do as little as possible to the audio once it's captured.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Scooter

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2006, 09:36:35 PM »
I'm pretty sure that you can put 24/44.1 on DVD-V audio discs.
MBHO 603a(ka200n/ka500hn) >
R-44, or H120

LMA Recordings

Offline balou2

  • Crippled, but still dancin'
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4442
  • Gender: Male
  • He was a friend of mine.
    • Little Mountain Sound Archive
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2006, 03:24:58 AM »
Teddy posted a cool article here.  It has more to do with frequency than bit rate, but it's all part of the learning curve.
Socks are overrated.

Offline JasonSobel

  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3327
  • Gender: Male
    • My show list
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 06:15:21 AM »
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I can't play DVD-A's. I can make an audio only video DVD and play it in my DVD player. But, I'm not sure if it has to be 48kHz.

I'm pretty sure that you can put 24/44.1 on DVD-V audio discs.

a DVD-Video disc (such as one burned with "audio DVD creator") has to be either 48 kHz or 96 kHz.  the DVD-Audio format and allows for a whole variety of sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.

Offline Chuck

  • Trade Count: (42)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10811
  • Gender: Male
  • time between the notes...
    • My recordings on the LMA
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2006, 09:22:16 AM »
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I can't play DVD-A's. I can make an audio only video DVD and play it in my DVD player. But, I'm not sure if it has to be 48kHz.

I'm pretty sure that you can put 24/44.1 on DVD-V audio discs.

a DVD-Video disc (such as one burned with "audio DVD creator") has to be either 48 kHz or 96 kHz.  the DVD-Audio format and allows for a whole variety of sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.

Cool, good to know.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.

Microphones: AKG C 480 B comb-ULS/ CK 61/ CK 63, Sennheiser MKE 2 elements,  Audix M1290-o, Micro capsule active cables w/ Naiant PFA's, Naiant MSH-1O, Naiant AKG Active cables, Church CA-11 (cardioid), (1) Nady SCM-1000 (mod)
Pre-amps: Naiant littlebox, Naiant littlekit v2.0, BM2p+ Edirol UA-5, Church STC-9000
Recorders: Sound Devices MixPre-6, iRiver iHP-120 (Rockboxed & RTC mod)

Recordings on the LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/ChuckM
Recording website & blog: http://www.timebetweenthenotes.com

Offline Scooter

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2006, 11:25:07 AM »
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I can't play DVD-A's. I can make an audio only video DVD and play it in my DVD player. But, I'm not sure if it has to be 48kHz.

I'm pretty sure that you can put 24/44.1 on DVD-V audio discs.

a DVD-Video disc (such as one burned with "audio DVD creator") has to be either 48 kHz or 96 kHz.  the DVD-Audio format and allows for a whole variety of sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.


Ah, I had it backwards :-[
MBHO 603a(ka200n/ka500hn) >
R-44, or H120

LMA Recordings

Offline terrapinj

  • Jonesin' for Tunes
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6553
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2006, 11:43:22 AM »
Hmmm... I'm not sure about that. I can't play DVD-A's. I can make an audio only video DVD and play it in my DVD player. But, I'm not sure if it has to be 48kHz.

I'm pretty sure that you can put 24/44.1 on DVD-V audio discs.

a DVD-Video disc (such as one burned with "audio DVD creator") has to be either 48 kHz or 96 kHz.  the DVD-Audio format and allows for a whole variety of sample rates: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, or 192 kHz.

thanks for clarifying
JW mod AKG 460b (ck61/ck63 or mk46/ck1x/ck3x)>  EAA PSP-2 > 722

Segue Dogstar XLRs and Interconnects

ISO: (2) ck2x

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2006, 05:32:50 PM »
I've been running 24/44.1 for the past month and loving it. I don't really have a 24-bit playback option, but in the future if I do, I save all of my originals/masters. I've been running at 24-bit mostly for the extra headroom, which is nice to have. On the sampling front, I personally can't really tell the difference, so I like not having to resample in my workflow. However, if I know I am going to sync to MiniDV or encode DV video to DVD, I'll usually record at 48 because that's what DV/DVD runs it's PCM at typically. Anyway, my main point is that you may want to run at 24-bit for two main reasons: (1) headroom, and (2) archiving for possible future use. That's my two cents...
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline terrapinj

  • Jonesin' for Tunes
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6553
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2006, 05:41:40 PM »
Anyway, my main point is that you may want to run at 24-bit for two main reasons: (1) headroom, and (2) archiving for possible future use. That's my two cents...

just out of curiousity why not also do 48 or higher sample rate for the future if you have the capabilities now?
JW mod AKG 460b (ck61/ck63 or mk46/ck1x/ck3x)>  EAA PSP-2 > 722

Segue Dogstar XLRs and Interconnects

ISO: (2) ck2x

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2006, 05:56:32 PM »
Anyway, my main point is that you may want to run at 24-bit for two main reasons: (1) headroom, and (2) archiving for possible future use. That's my two cents...

just out of curiousity why not also do 48 or higher sample rate for the future if you have the capabilities now?

Well, I could run 96 with the R4 and have at times since I bought it. My basic answer is that I'm pretty much totally ok with 16/44 from a listening standpoint, so anything else is kind of excessive. I'm sure a whole bunch of people would disagree, but hey, to each his own. On the 96 front, frankly, I just don't like dealing with the freakin' HUGE file sizes and the splits -- it's just a headache I don't want to deal with from needing twice the HD space, running slower processing (I master almost everything I tape a little), splicing together splits (YUK!), and that extra step of resampling with anti-aliasing. Maybe I should care more, but I kind of don't. On the 48 front, I'm more torn. The file size and processing time (when mixing and using vst's and whatnot) aren't as much of a factor, but that added step of resampling still is. I basically just don't think it makes much of a difference to me, so I started running 44.1 again. I go back and forth on that, and I probably should just run 48. See, I'm pretty much happy with 16/44 audio, but the 24-bit thing has some real advantages like I raised before. ALTHOUGH I left out another HUGE advantage of 24-bit... The increased accuracy is very helpful in lowering quantization errors when doing any sort of processing like mixing a matrix, doing a bass rolloff, EQ'ing, fades, or (god forbid) some compression. So, 24-bit has some really obvious benefits to me on that front even when 16-bit is your target medium (between the headroom and quantization improvements, it's worth it right there). On the sampling rate front however, the advantages just don't seem to be as compelling to me, but maybe my ears are just shot?
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

Offline terrapinj

  • Jonesin' for Tunes
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 6553
  • Gender: Male
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2006, 06:03:40 PM »
i definately agree with you on the 96 front. most of the places i tape are somewhat crappy PA rooms so there's no advantage IMO to going 96. i was running 48 because i had assumed (incorrectly) that it was necessary to play audio on DVD. i also do 48 now because 48 is a more natural (for lack of a better term) sampling rate, and figure its a small trade off for the additional file size and extra step in resampling.

most important point...
but hey, to each his own.

one of these days im gonna see if i can do some tests, or find some samples out there, to see just how noticeable the different sample rates are
JW mod AKG 460b (ck61/ck63 or mk46/ck1x/ck3x)>  EAA PSP-2 > 722

Segue Dogstar XLRs and Interconnects

ISO: (2) ck2x

Offline wbrisette

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2855
  • Gender: Male
    • Homepage
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2006, 08:34:58 AM »
ione of these days im gonna see if i can do some tests, or find some samples out there, to see just how noticeable the different sample rates are

I made some discs where I recorded at 24/48 and 24/96. I sent these out to people to listen to in a blind test. Nobody could tell the difference without looking at what sample rate their equipment told them they were playing. That said, I usually record at 48 KHz for most things. However, if I'm doing acoustical stuff, I use 96 KHz.

Wayne
Mics: Earthworks SR-77 (MP), QTC-1 (MP)

Editing: QSC RMX2450, MOTU 2408 MK3, Earthworks Sigma 6.2

Offline nihilistic0

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 224
  • wat
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 02:08:47 AM »
now send them a 16 and 24 bit versions, and see if they can hear a difference

SP-CMC-4 (AT853) > SP-SPSB-1 (no rolloff) > Tascam DR-05

Offline viega

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 04:52:27 AM »
Just make sure it has enough dynamic range to make the test worthwhile...

Offline BayTaynt3d

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1816
  • Gender: Male
  • Live from San Francisco
    • BayTaper.com
Re: 24 bit vs 16 bit
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 11:15:05 AM »
I personally don't think the insteresting test is between 16 and 24 because we know there are a whole lot of good reasons to record in 24-bit over 16-bit, whether you play it back in 24 or not -- I think everyone is pretty much in agreement on the fact that 24 bit is better. However, I do think the decision of 44.1 vs. 48 vs 88 vs 96 is a very worthwhile discussion personally, and I'd like to see the above test done blind between 44.1 and 48 to see if anyone can really pick that out or not in the real world...
BayTaper.com | One Man’s Multimedia Journey Through the San Francisco Jazz & Creative Music Scene

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.152 seconds with 47 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF