Topic: Completely green, and rig advice needed!

[Niteromantic]

Hello all!
This is my first post in regards to a subject that I have great interest in, but have no knowledge about.  I figured before I spent money I didn't need to I would ask some veterans here. for their advice.

I am new to taping, and just bought my first recorder, a Roland R-05.
I took it to a Rush show not too long ago and taped. Although I did what I could with getting it in there and having no mics etc, I got the results I was expecting-way too much bass.

Anyway, id like some advice-maybe someone here can point me in the right direction. Heres what I'm looking at currently:

I have the Roland Edirol R-05..and thats about it.
I attend rock shows and usually in the closer sections, arenas, and sometimes theaters.
I am looking for a rig that is transportable, stealthy, and easy to set up-but then again I guess we all are.

Price isnt so much of a problem as long as I can get some clean pulls at the shows. I was wondering aloud just now...is there a way to get external mics and not use a bettery pack? I'd like to get away with that setup if the mics can do ok on the power from the recorder itself.

Lastly-thanks for taking the time to offer me your advice. I look forward to hearing from all of you,
K

[su6oxone]

Price isnt so much of a problem as long as I can get some clean pulls at the shows.

First off, welcome to the board and taping! 

How much is your price range?  It can range from under a hundred to even over $10K so a more specific range would help us with giving you recommendations.   

[fmaderjr]

I was wondering aloud just now...is there a way to get external mics and not use a bettery pack? I'd like to get away with that setup if the mics can do ok on the power from the recorder itself.

Some recorders like the older R-09HR and the Sony M10 have been found to power some mics adequately with plug in power and no battery box including the Church Audio C-11's and mics based on the AT-853 capsules. The Marantz PMD620 will power most mics fine with plug in power. Of course this might not work well with quiet stuff-you might need an external preamp to make an adequately noise free recording.

As to your R-05, not many users have yet posted here and to my knowledge it has not been tested at loud shows running mics with plug in power and no battery box yet. Someone has to be the Guinea Pig, so if nobody responds that they have done it successfully, you could get one of the mics that works with the R-09HR and see how it works with your R-05.

[acidjack]

While some recorders can power external mics off of plug in power, absent having a modification done to the recorder itself (which will cost about as much or more than a battery box, and invalidate your warranty), you are probably best off with a small battery box, assuming you record loud rock music.  If you record quieter music, you may also want a small preamp instead.

As others already pointed out, a bit more specifics about your intended application and price range would be helpful.  And what kind of sound you like in mics.  The default response to your question on here, assuming you don't want to spend more than a few hundred bucks, is always to tell people to buy the Church Audio CA-11 mics, but they are not necessarily the preferred mic of everyone, especially depending on the factors I mentioned.

[rockymtnryan]

I would love to jump in here as I am in the same situation.  Been doing a bunch of research and trying to put the pieces together of an affordable rig.  I love AKG's but they are out of my price range right now so I'm looking at Peluso cemc6's.  I'm thinking of picking up an M-Audio Microtrack II so I can patch out of someone until I get the rest put together.  I really like the low cost and the ease of use reviews.  With mics and a recorder narrowed down I need advice on preamps/adc.  And help would be appreciated.  I'm trying to keep things around $1000-$1200 or so.  Right now.....

Stereo matched pair of Peluso cemc6 $679 from Frontend Audio
http://www.frontendaudio.com/Peluso-CEMC6-Matched-Microphones-p/9999-00402.htm

M-Audio Microtrack II $199 from Frontend Audio
http://www.frontendaudio.com/M-Audio-MicroTrack-II-Digital-Recorder-p/9999-01739.htm

As for preamps/adc I would really appreciate some advice, and I'm trying to keep the cost under a few hundred.  I was reading about the UA-5 but it seems to be discontinued.  A friend uses the Naiant Littlebox and likes it.  Basically looking for something affordable that sounds nice and offers S/PDIF out s I can go digital direct into the Microtrack II.

Thanks!

[fmaderjr]

General consensus here is that the Microtrack is not reliable.
Plus $199 is too much to pay for it.

May would disagree, but I wouldn't worry about an ADC. I would get a Littlebox preamp ($200-$300 depending on the options selected) http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html and go analog in to a recorder such as the Sony M10. That would sound great with any mics and I doubt if you'd hear a difference if you were running an external ADC.

[newplanet7]

Get a set of Busman mics.
The set comes with a set of each cap. Cardioid, Hyper, Subcard, and Omni.
That runs around $450.
http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html
He is a member here but not on here as much as he used to be.
Then either grab an all in one recorder, or get a pre & recorder.
Naint Littlebox and m10 seem to be pretty respected and more importantly TESTED
around here passing with flying colors.

What AKG mics were you looking at getting?
460's might be in your price range.

[rastasean]

Many would disagree, but I wouldn't worry about an ADC. I would get a Littlebox preamp ($200-$300 depending on the options selected) http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html and go analog in to a recorder such as the Sony M10. That would sound great with any mics and I doubt if you'd hear a difference if you were running an external ADC.

solid advice. if you want a recorder with digital coaxial in, you'll have to spend a few hundred dollars on a marantz recorder and several more above that price range.
the naiant line is great because they are handmade and you can have it configured in many different ways.

don't forget you'll need cables, stands, bags, hardware adapters, clamps, and money for shows.

enjoy.

[rastasean]

Get a set of Busman mics.

how do you think the busman compare to a pair of the avant avantone ck-1 microphones? two completely different sounds?

[rockymtnryan]

General consensus here is that the Microtrack is not reliable.
Plus $199 is too much to pay for it.

May would disagree, but I wouldn't worry about an ADC. I would get a Littlebox preamp ($200-$300 depending on the options selected) http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html and go analog in to a recorder such as the Sony M10. That would sound great with any mics and I doubt if you'd hear a difference if you were running an external ADC.

Is the Naiant offered with an S/PDIF out option?  If so, that would be great.

[rockymtnryan]

Get a set of Busman mics.
The set comes with a set of each cap. Cardioid, Hyper, Subcard, and Omni.
That runs around $450.
http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html
He is a member here but not on here as much as he used to be.
Then either grab an all in one recorder, or get a pre & recorder.
Naint Littlebox and m10 seem to be pretty respected and more importantly TESTED
around here passing with flying colors.

What AKG mics were you looking at getting?
460's might be in your price range.

My favorite mics are the AKG 483's, just love the sound.  But for under $700 for a matched pair of Peluso cemc6 mics, with hard case, shock mounts, hard mounts, and wind screens is a really apealing deal.  And I like how they sound.

[newplanet7]

Get a set of Busman mics.

how do you think the busman compare to a pair of the avant avantone ck-1 microphones? two completely different sounds?

I think they are very similar, chris mods the ck1's on the avatones I think.
I think chris just upgraded his caps for the busman line also, so they are probably sounding
less alike these days.
I was going that route, for the busmans, before I got my first pair of akg's.
I was also going to go the busman route before I got my second pair of AKG's, the 460/ck1's I have now.
I love them a lot and they will be keepers.

[newplanet7]

Get a set of Busman mics.
The set comes with a set of each cap. Cardioid, Hyper, Subcard, and Omni.
That runs around $450.
http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html
He is a member here but not on here as much as he used to be.
Then either grab an all in one recorder, or get a pre & recorder.
Naint Littlebox and m10 seem to be pretty respected and more importantly TESTED
around here passing with flying colors.

What AKG mics were you looking at getting?
460's might be in your price range.

My favorite mics are the AKG 483's, just love the sound.  But for under $700 for a matched pair of Peluso cemc6 mics, with hard case, shock mounts, hard mounts, and wind screens is a really apealing deal.  And I like how they sound.

Nice.
Not trying to talk you out of anything but if you like the akg sound there is a set of c460b's with a set of ck3 hypers
in the yardsale right now for 600. I think you'd be pleased with that.
I have samples of an MMW show that I taped with 460ck3 combo.
60' from the stage DFC
Medeski Martin And Wood
http://home.comcast.net/~newplanet7/Mysamples/mmw2009-11-13s1t0601.mp3
http://home.comcast.net/~newplanet7/Mysamples/mmw2009-11-13s2t0401.mp3
http://home.comcast.net/~newplanet7/Mysamples/mmw2009-11-13s2t0101.mp3

EDIT FOR YS LINK: DREW IS GOOD PEOPLE TOO.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136372.0

[setboy]

Get a set of Busman mics.
The set comes with a set of each cap. Cardioid, Hyper, Subcard, and Omni.
That runs around $450.
http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html

I believe you can also buy some upgraded caps for the busmans aswell.  Check with busman.

great mics for the price either way 

[newplanet7]

I believe you can also buy some upgraded caps for the busmans aswell.  Check with busman.
great mics for the price either way 

I'm sure that's the case. It's what I was referring to in my previous post

I think they are very similar, chris mods the ck1's on the avatones I think.
I think chris just upgraded his caps for the busman line also, so they are probably sounding
less alike these days.

[setboy]

I believe you can also buy some upgraded caps for the busmans aswell.  Check with busman.
great mics for the price either way 

I'm sure that's the case. It's what I was referring to in my previous post

I think they are very similar, chris mods the ck1's on the avatones I think.
I think chris just upgraded his caps for the busman line also, so they are probably sounding
less alike these days.

My bad. I didn't read down that far.......carry on........

[newplanet7]

No bad. 
I'm glad someone chimed in with that setboy, who apparently
digs the AKG and Busman sounds. 

[rockymtnryan]

What about preamps?  Suggestions for something that would compliment Peluso, AKG, or Busman?

Again, not trying to spend more than a few hundred on a preamp.


Thanks

[newplanet7]

Do you want/need an external one?
You can get an all in one box too like the fr2le or the marantz pmd 661 and just go mics right in to the onboard pres.
I have been for a few years and have no complaints.
However I am going to get a littlebox/biggerbox sooner than later.
For a few hundred you would be best to go there.
I have seen a few SD MP2's and SD MixPre's go recently for 350.
Another option which is less is an edirol ua5 modded or unmoded for cheap.
But with the littlebox being so customizable and NEW it makes sense to hit that in that price range.
Or again go for an all in one pre/ad/recorder.

I really dig the AKG/Apogee sound for mics ~> Pres combo.
Also there are a few on this board that run busman and or akg into a littlebox.
Will runs both akg's and busmans into a littlebox and also runs mics right into his fr2le recorder with its on-board pres.
Hit him up. http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=2412

[rockymtnryan]

I've been looking into the Busman BSC1 mics and listened to some samples from the LMA; very nice.  Great sound to those mics and so affordable.  The fact that you get the extra caps is awesome.  I would be happy with those for sure.

Checking the yard sale for preamps and recorders.


Thanks for the tips guys.

[fmaderjr]

What about preamps?  Suggestions for something that would compliment Peluso, AKG, or Busman?

Again, not trying to spend more than a few hundred on a preamp.


Thanks

About the only thing that gives you great quality and is within your price gange it the littlebox ($200-$300 depending on the options selected). I love mine and it has been given many other positive reviews by members here (and no negative ones that I am aware of).
http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130031.0
 

[rockymtnryan]

General consensus here is that the Microtrack is not reliable.
Plus $199 is too much to pay for it.

May would disagree, but I wouldn't worry about an ADC. I would get a Littlebox preamp ($200-$300 depending on the options selected) http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html and go analog in to a recorder such as the Sony M10. That would sound great with any mics and I doubt if you'd hear a difference if you were running an external ADC.

If I use a Naiant LB in conjunction with mics such as AKG, Peluso, or Busman (all recommended here) would there be much difference in the signal recorded between an analog in on one of the handhelds, or the XLR in of something like a Marantz PMD series?

I guess I just figured I would want to have a preamp with a digital out to give the cleanest signal to the recorder.  Obviously, the handheld recorders are more affordable and if there really isn't any difference in sound (when using good mics > external preamp > recorder) between the analog line-in and, XLR, or S/PDIF I should go for the more affordable option.

Thanks

[fmaderjr]

If I use a Naiant LB in conjunction with mics such as AKG, Peluso, or Busman (all recommended here) would there be much difference in the signal recorded between an analog in on one of the handhelds, or the XLR in of something like a Marantz PMD series?
Thanks

I what you are recording is fairly loud, a recording with the PMD-661 (I wouldn't buy any of the older model in place of a 661) might well be as good as one with a littlebox & a small recorder like an M10. If you are recording acoustic, it might not.

I just got a 661 and love it, but haven't had a chance to take it out in the field, so you'll need opinions from users who have used it on a regular basis.

[rockymtnryan]

If I use a Naiant LB in conjunction with mics such as AKG, Peluso, or Busman (all recommended here) would there be much difference in the signal recorded between an analog in on one of the handhelds, or the XLR in of something like a Marantz PMD series?
Thanks

I what you are recording is fairly loud, a recording with the PMD-661 (I wouldn't buy any of the older model in place of a 661) might well be as good as one with a littlebox & a small recorder like an M10. If you are recording acoustic, it might not.

I just got a 661 and love it, but haven't had a chance to take it out in the field, so you'll need opinions from users who have used it on a regular basis.

How do you connect your Littlebox to the PCM M10?  I assume you are using the 3.5 mm input on the M10, but what type of output was built on the Naiant?  The same or do you use some sort of converter?

I really like the 661, 670, and 671 from Marantz but they are all probably out of my price range for a starter rig.  The M10 has great reviews on here, but the MT II has some great features for less (B&H has the M10 for $199 and the MT II for $152) and I know some people who haven't had any of the reliability problems mentioned here.  According to the specs the MT II has the same frequency range, the same THD, but a greater SNR,and an S/PDIF input which is awesome.  With the difference in price I could get a Tekkeon batt pack for extended use via the usb connection.

[fmaderjr]

How do you connect your Littlebox to the PCM M10?  I assume you are using the 3.5 mm input on the M10, but what type of output was built on the Naiant?  The same or do you use some sort of converter?

The Littlebox can be ordered with a ton of options. You can get it with a 1/8 output to run a 1/8 to 1/8 cable to an M10. Instead of that I ordered mine with RCA outs and run a stereo RCA to 1/8 cable to my M10. I ordered it that way because an RCA connection is more secure than a 1/8, so I only have 1 1/8 plug to worry about. You could also get it with dual XLR outs if you thought you might need then in the future and use a XLR to 1/8 adapter to the M10. You probably could even get it with both XLR outs and a 1/8 out. You'd have to ask Jon at Naiant.

Although I don't recommend the MTII, probably most of the failures people have had with it is when going digital in. I have had no trouble making flawless recordings with an old MT 24/96 but find it a bit of a pain in the ass to use. One problem using the MTII for analog recordings though is that if you feed it an unbalanced signal you have to keep the MT's record level at the lowest possible setting to avoid introducing a "sprinkler noise" to your recording. This works out OK if you can get enough gain from your external pre, but you can't add any gain with the MT.  To avoid this you need to have a special cable made to feed the MTII. Sound Pros still makes them, I think.

[rockymtnryan]

Wondering if you can recommend a portable battery pack that would run both the preamp (either Naiant LB or UA-5) and the recorder.  Something that could plug into the mini-usb of the MT II and the DC in of the pre?

If not, how do you run yours?  9V, AA, or rechargable lithium-ion?

Thanks

[fmaderjr]

I have an internal Li-ion in my littlebox. It'll run for hours and hours.

A standard littlebox won't run when powered by the DC. That recharges the battery only. If you do festivals where you can't recharge at night, you can get a littlebox built that has both an internal battery and has a jack for an external battery. You'd have to discuss the options with Jon at Naiant.

[rastasean]

a single 9 volt battery can last several hours on in the little box depending on the mics you use. very few of the mics we use require FULL 48 volt power but in the instances where you are recording for several consecutive hours, consider packing more than one 9v.

If that is not an option, take a look at this post: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=135631.0

Will had his LB custom made to use DIN3 connection to allow rc batteries to be used with his pre-amp.

So there you go, three options that you can use to power the LB.
1) internal rechargeable battery that  fmaderjr recommended
2) extra 9v batteries
3) DIN3 connection

if you get the bigger box, I think you can use two 9volt batteries.

[rockymtnryan]

So the standard LB has the 9v tray, but you can't get one with both a 9v tray and the internal rechargeable lithium batt, right?  I ask because for most shows the rechargeable internal would last long enough and be cheaper than always buying 9v batts, but for festivals I would need more.  So once the internal was done from charging the night before, I could continue taping the rest of the festival day with 9v batts.

[jbell]

I got the DIN3 which allows me to use a DVD battery for extended use.  You could also use rc batteries.  Also I would stay away from the MTII, it was my first recorder and I bought because of the SPDIF.  Poor battery life and unreliable get a sony M10 or edirol R09HR if you are getting a hand held deck.

So the standard LB has the 9v tray, but you can't get one with both a 9v tray and the internal rechargeable lithium batt, right?  I ask because for most shows the rechargeable internal would last long enough and be cheaper than always buying 9v batts, but for festivals I would need more.  So once the internal was done from charging the night before, I could continue taping the rest of the festival day with 9v batts.

[rockymtnryan]

How do you connect your Littlebox to the PCM M10?  I assume you are using the 3.5 mm input on the M10, but what type of output was built on the Naiant?  The same or do you use some sort of converter?

The Littlebox can be ordered with a ton of options. You can get it with a 1/8 output to run a 1/8 to 1/8 cable to an M10. Instead of that I ordered mine with RCA outs and run a stereo RCA to 1/8 cable to my M10. I ordered it that way because an RCA connection is more secure than a 1/8, so I only have 1 1/8 plug to worry about. You could also get it with dual XLR outs if you thought you might need then in the future and use a XLR to 1/8 adapter to the M10. You probably could even get it with both XLR outs and a 1/8 out. You'd have to ask Jon at Naiant.

There are so many different connector options that I'm a little confused...
XLR, Mini XLR, TRS, 3.5mm, 1/8, 1/4, RCA

How are XLR and TRS different?  Are they both balanced?
Do the 3.5, 1/8, 1/4, rca all maintain stereo from the LB? Are they all balanced?

Is one better than the other when you're talking about all analog connectors? Basically I'm confused since the Naiant website lists "3.5mm TRS minijack" and "mini XLR" as output options.  Aren't those the same?

[fmaderjr]

There are so many different connector options that I'm a little confused...
XLR, Mini XLR, TRS, 3.5mm, 1/8, 1/4, RCA

How are XLR and TRS different?  Are they both balanced?
Do the 3.5, 1/8, 1/4, rca all maintain stereo from the LB? Are they all balanced?

Is one better than the other when you're talking about all analog connectors? Basically I'm confused since the Naiant website lists "3.5mm TRS minijack" and "mini XLR" as output options.  Aren't those the same?

Of course they all maintain stereo.

XLR,  Mini-XLR, & 1/4 TRS are balanced and the others are not (I think). But I really don't care much about balanced. I may be in the minority, but I don't think it usually matters much if you aren't doing long cable runs. However balanced is said to be better rejecting interference from cell phones, etc.

Locking connectors like XLR & Mini-XLR are less prone to introducing problems in the signal due to a bad connection, but I've never had many problems with 1/8 plugs (I do clean them and the jacks they fit into with isopropyl alcohol occasionally.

3.5mm TRS minijack and mini XLR are not the same. A quick Google search will show the difference. You really should always do a Google search (and a search of this site if you can deal with it) before asking questions here. That way you'll get answers to some of the more basic ones and you won't have to ask a ton of questions in one post. Members here will appreciate it.

[rockymtnryan]

Thank you for the clarification, it is very much appreciated, and for being understanding to my ignorance.  I have really learned a lot in the last few weeks from the folks on this board, and everyone's knowledge and passion for taping is inspiring.

Thanks again!