Topic: Chaining a preamp to a SP-SPSB-6

[tibbsa]

An acquaintance of mine picked up something like the following battery box/preamp a while back, but it lacks the bass roll-off feature, which is proving to be a disadvantage in some of the recording situations involved. 

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3281&item=5722692176&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

The question he raised, was whether or not one could chain this with a Sound Pro SP-SPSB-6 battery box/bass roll-off unit without any ill effects?  (rather than buying a $200 USD "all in one" unit from Sound Professionals directly...)

The only reason I'm wondering about this combination, is because the Church Audio unit already provides the 9V plug-in power, and I'm wondering whether the Sound Pro unit will explode?    (I know it's intended to be plugged into an MD recorder or similar which will provide some voltage anyway, but 2-3V and 9V are two different things, potentially.)

[thierryhenry]

I've had both.

Get the SP-SBSP-6. It's alot better, you can never ever go wrong with SP stuff. They are more reliable, friendly, and better deals than anything on Ebay.

[tibbsa]

I've had both.

Get the SP-SBSP-6. It's alot better, you can never ever go wrong with SP stuff. They are more reliable, friendly, and better deals than anything on Ebay.

Oh, I have little doubt that the combo pre-amp/battery box from SP would be a better option, and some day I may go that route myself (though for now, I'll be content to pick up the battery box/bass roll off alone).  It's more a question of whether or not it's possible, rather than whether one would actually want to do this to get great results.

[radioboy1977]

justin mccabe do you work for CHURCH-AUDIO because i see a similarity in that both of you don't use punctuation but that's ok justin because you actually contribute to the group rather than this CHURCH-AUDIO guy who seems to only hijack threads so he can sell his stuff on ebay i for one will never buy his stuff because of the spam he has posted today

 

[tibbsa]

FROM CHURCH-AUDIO
You can daisy chain anything to my preamp in the way of another battery box if you want it will not harm my preamp because my preamp has blocking capacitors on the inputs and outputs I use mylar caps on all my preamps ... (trimmed)

That's what I get for copying the eBay link.  LOL.  Should've known you might come across it and pop in here.  In any event, actually, my original question doesn't involve _your_ pre-amp at all -- it was something that was picked up locally, but that was simply the closest thing I could find that was about equivalent in terms of specs/capabilities.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Since I am the maker of this preamp I can say that Core sound is not any better then this preamp. And you can not add a battery box after my preamp, unless you get rid of the two bias resistors that are connected to the output they are 10k 1% resistors. All you have to do is cut the resistors from the circuit. If you dont feel like doing that tell your friend to send it back to me and I will do it. And just to let you guys know. Bass roll off should not have to be used to iliminate distortion. The mics SHOULD HANDLE THE BASS if they dont you need new mics. There has been alot of talk about bass roll off I think its because alot of manufactures are using the distortion at 1k thing And not measuring at low freq's. This has spawned alot of attention towards low end and roll off if anyone would like a sample recording of real low end please pm me.

An acquaintance of mine picked up something like the following battery box/preamp a while back, but it lacks the bass roll-off feature, which is proving to be a disadvantage in some of the recording situations involved. 

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3281&item=5722692176&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

The question he raised, was whether or not one could chain this with a Sound Pro SP-SPSB-6 battery box/bass roll-off unit without any ill effects?  (rather than buying a $200 USD "all in one" unit from Sound Professionals directly...)

The only reason I'm wondering about this combination, is because the Church Audio unit already provides the 9V plug-in power, and I'm wondering whether the Sound Pro unit will explode?    (I know it's intended to be plugged into an MD recorder or similar which will provide some voltage anyway, but 2-3V and 9V are two different things, potentially.)

[cybermansrev]

Hmm I kind of feel that some of Church Audio's postings were erring on the side of spam

Hi I am the person CHURCH-AUDIO that makes the preamp it now has a bass roll off feature at around 50-60 hz at 12db per octave please visit my ebay store to take a look if your interested it sells for
$49.99 or you can buy my preamp and my profesional stereo mics that go from 20hz to 40khz for $89.99 I hope you wont take this post as spam I am just a small guy trying to sell a really good product here is the link to my ebay store thank you

I mean this reply didn't help the guy with the original question at all!

However his other replies at least do seem helpful but very contradictary

FROM CHURCH-AUDIO
You can daisy chain anything to my preamp in the way of another battery box if you want it will not harm my preamp because my preamp has blocking capacitors on the inputs and outputs I use mylar caps on all my preamps so don't worrie about blowing it up

Followed by

And you can not add a battery box after my preamp, unless you get rid of the two bias resistors that are connected to the output

Just for clarification do you mean it's okay to put the battery box on the mic side of the preamp but not on the recorder side (without removing the resistors) OR do you mean that even on the mic side you would have to remove the resistors?

[cybermansrev]

As I believe I said some of your replies were helpful, it was the first which seemed to be an advert.

[Brian Skalinder]

Bass roll off should not have to be used to iliminate distortion. The mics SHOULD HANDLE THE BASS if they dont you need new mics.

No one suggested using a HPF to eliminate distortion - it's a perfectly reasonable feature for many users. To suggest someone needs new mics simply because they want a particular feature in their battery box / preamp - in this case,  HPF - doesn't make sense.

And I still stand by what I said GOOD MICS WITH A BALANCED FREQ RESPONSE DO NOT NEED BASS ROLL OFF.

Unless one wants to rolloff the bass at the time of recording, instead of in post-production.  Wanting a HPF as a feature doesn't necessarily mean the mics in use aren't good mics, it means the user wants that particular feature.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

You are correct but ... alot of people want it to fix " distortion " with the recordings they make this is a bandaid aproch and changes the orginal sound of the music by cuting off low end your left with ? what mids and highs mics should be flat so that they pick up sound properly. This is a sample recording done with our new Cardiod mic system and it speaks for it self this is a live recording with mics not a direct feed from the console

And I still stand by what I said GOOD MICS WITH A BALANCED FREQ RESPONSE DO NOT NEED BASS ROLL OFF.

Unless one wants to rolloff the bass at the time of recording, instead of in post-production.  Wanting a HPF as a feature doesn't necessarily mean the mics in use aren't good mics, it means the user wants that particular feature.  Nothing more, nothing less.  To suggest someone needs new mics simply because they want a particular feature in their battery box / preamp - in this case,  HPF - doesn't make sense.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Not True check out our specs on our preamps they are as good or better then any preamp made that operates on 9 volts

I've had both.

Get the SP-SBSP-6. It's alot better, you can never ever go wrong with SP stuff. They are more reliable, friendly, and better deals than anything on Ebay.

[Brian Skalinder]

Not True check out our specs on our preamps they are as good or better then any preamp made that operates on 9 volts

He's entitled to his opinion, as you're entitled to yours.  So - both your statements are true.  As is this one:  "good" specs do not necessarily equal "good" sound.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Thats true. How about this I can send you a demo preamp and mics to check out you tell me what you think maybe we can end this once and for all. I agree that specs dont tell the whole story thats where my 20 years as a live / studio sound engineer come into play. Most of the people that make this gear are NOT sound engineers, they are Electronics Engineers. I use my ears as well as all my test equipment to determine if a product is good enough to have my name on it, Also I feel strongly that some of the other folks that make this stuff have been over charging for years. I am pricing my equipment at a good price not over inflated ( some people translate that into it being not as good ) I say to these people that you have never tryied my mics and preamps. I dont just buy shure or audio technica mics and cut the factory connectors off and solder on a 3.5 mm cable and call it a day, anyone with a soldering iron can do that. I go way beyond ordering capsules and soldering wires onto them I get into all kinds of things to make a mic sound better. Some people just put heat shrink over everything and call it a mic, We do not we build the mic housing so that it will be better for sound. We use a baffle around our capsule to help with directionality. We now have a Cardiod mic system that is as good or better then the $400 Cardiod mic systems out there. And it includes a preamp for that price. We feel strongly that for the money our products are the best value. That is why we would like you to test some of them out. Give your users of this site an unbiased review.




Chris Church
Church Audio

Not True check out our specs on our preamps they are as good or better then any preamp made that operates on 9 volts

He's entitled to his opinion, as you're entitled to yours.  So - both your statements are true.  As is this one:  "good" specs do not necessarily equal "good" sound.

[Brian Skalinder]

How about this I can send you a demo preamp and mics to check out you tell me what you think maybe we can end this once and for all.

Honestly, I don't have much interest in testing out your gear - nothing personal, and it's not a judgement on your gear's quality.  It's just that my interest in trying out gear stops with gear I have run in the past, currently use, or plan to run.  But perhaps you can persuade another TS member to try out your gear and provide feedback, maybe even perform a blind comparison.

And there's nothing to put an end to once and for all - there's no fundamental disagreement here, and I've not passed judgement on the quality of your gear.  You stated, effectively, good specs = good sound.  I qualified your statement, and you agreed with my qualification.  There's no disagreement or issue to "end" or resolve.

I use my ears as well as all my test equipment to determine if a product is good enough to have my name on it

A fine practice, using your ears. 

Also I feel strongly that some of the other folks that make this stuff have been over charging for years. I am pricing my equipment at a good price not over inflated ( some people translate that into it being not as good )

Cost/value is a matter of perspective, which in turn is impacted, at least in part - and especially by those who have not personally run your gear - by marketing, reputation, and service.  A quality product itself (usually) isn't always enough.  Perhaps one reason the "over-charging" folks of whom you speak seem quite popular (and it's quite easy to determine exactly who you're referencing) have simply proven more effective at marketing, servicing their current or potential customers, and building their reputation.

I don't mean the following comments as insulting or overly critical, just as honest feedback that you hopefully find useful.  Examples of two issues (and there are others) that may impact the above marketing, service, and reputation factors so important in a buyer's decision (all IMO, of course)...

Web Presence
Audio recordists, especially those new to the hobby, are more likely to feel comfortable with an organization that creates and maintains a professional looking web presence, as opposed to eBay listings or an eBay storefront.  Professional web presences are characterized by easy navigation and a wealth of detailed information - provided in a way that makes it easy for newbies to understand - about the issues impacting their gear selection.  Experienced consumers are not impacted as heavily, but for newbies - the primary market segment to which your gear appeals, IMO - web presence has a significant impact on the buying process.  Improving CA's web presence will help business significantly, I think.

Communication
Effective and clear communication content and style is essential to any business, especially when dealing with customers.  The content and style of an organization's communication defines the organization, impacts marketing efforts, suggests (or doesn't) a willingness and/or ability to provide service, and helps establish reputation.  Two primary arenas come to mind immediately:  CA's TS postings, and the eBay storefront and listings.  Minimal or incorrect punctuation and run-on sentences makes effective communication incredibly difficult, the message gets lost.  Disjointed or unclear structuring of the message(s) makes comprehension more difficult.  And especially at TS, a sometimes combative or abrasive communication style turns off a lot of people, especially newbies.  If one is combative or abrasive in TS (less so now than in the past, but still an issue, IMO), what faith may potential customers have that CA will provide quality service?  Little, I suggest.  Personally, I find the eBay listings in the CA storefront difficult to follow due to SCREAMING ALLCAPS, color scheme, organization, and layout.  Just think how a newbie feels!  Overwhelmed and frustrated, probably - two feelings a sales organization does not want to instill in their potential customers.

I say to these people that you have never tryied my mics and preamps.

It's true, I've not tried your mics.  Again, perhaps you can persuade another TS member to try out your gear and provide feedback, maybe even perform a blind comparison between your gear and Brand X.

I go way beyond ordering capsules and soldering wires onto them I get into all kinds of things to make a mic sound better.

This is a good example of one small part of the communication issue I mentioned above.  "All kinds of things" is not a very persuasive, and provides the user with, effectively, no actual information.  But they may be persuaded by more detailed information, and that information doesn't necessarily have to be proprietary - it may be presented in a way that is informative without revealing trade secrets.

we build the mic housing so that it will be better for sound. We use a baffle around our capsule to help with directionality.

This starts to move in a better direction, providing more detail to customers.  But even more information is better - maybe explain how the baffling helps with directionality, why it's desirable, and address potential critiques of this baffling to head off potential criticism (for example, does the baffling block vents that contribute to the mic's polar pattern?).

We feel strongly that for the money our products are the best value. That is why we would like you to test some of them out.

Just had a thought - maybe one way to find someone to use your gear and provide feedback to the community, and maybe even inspire someone to do some side-by-side testing with competitors:  provide a set of mics / battery box / preamp to the TS Gear Loaner program, free of charge.  Others have done the same with new products they've offered to the TS community (I'm thinking Leegeddy and Todd R's cables, for starters) and it's proven quite effective.  Not saying it will prove effective for you - time will tell - but I think it's worth consideration.  And I'm not simply trying to pad the TS Loaner Program with more gear, I genuinely believe this option's worthy of consideration.

Give your users of this site an unbiased review.

Not my job.  The suggestion here is that I've provided a biased review.  I've presented no review of any kind regarding your product.  Besides, *every* review is biased, there's no such thing as an unbiased gear review.  Though it does help for reviewers to identify their biases up front.  I've simply qualified some of the discussion points, nothing more.

Oh, and no charge for the free consulting services. 

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I can see I still have alot to learn. thank you for taking the time to point a few of my mistakes out. I guess I am very proud of my equipment to a fault, that might turn people off from it. I will learn from what you have said and try and focus on my communication and my web site / ebay store front.

Thank you again for taking the time to point these things out.

Not True check out our specs on our preamps they are as good or better then any preamp made that operates on 9 volts

He's entitled to his opinion, as you're entitled to yours.  So - both your statements are true.  As is this one:  "good" specs do not necessarily equal "good" sound.

[RebelRebel]

From your reply to my "pipe organ" thread, I can see that you probably know what you are talking about. You also seem like a really nice person. Some are taken aback by the peddling of your gear in massive amounts. It doesnt bother me personally, if I had my own business id probably do the same thing. Its a good thing to believe in what you do. I think if you just back off on so much promotion and maybe just post more regular correspondence with members here youll have an easier time. (Believe me, I know) Best of luck man, and thanks for the insight on my issue.

I can see I still have alot to learn. thank you for taking the time to point a few of my mistakes out. I guess I am very proud of my equipment to a fault, that might turn people off from it. I will learn from what you have said and try and focus on my communication and my web site / ebay store front.

Thank you again for taking the time to point these things out.

Not True check out our specs on our preamps they are as good or better then any preamp made that operates on 9 volts

He's entitled to his opinion, as you're entitled to yours.  So - both your statements are true.  As is this one:  "good" specs do not necessarily equal "good" sound.

[Humbug]

I'd like to volunteer myself to try out your cardioid system* and report back - I currently record 4-5 gigs a month, mostly stealth, a few open on a stand, and typically from 100-3000 seaters.

I can run A:B comparisons against either CMC2(AT831)  or (shortly) AT933 mics, as I have two working Nomad JB3s.

Of course if you'd prefer someone closer to home, so be it.

Humbug

* I've asked before, but I'd like to know what mics you're using for this.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Thanks I will try to stop peddling my gear on here and actually try and help some people if I can.
 

From your reply to my "pipe organ" thread, I can see that you probably know what you are talking about. You also seem like a really nice person. Some are taken aback by the peddling of your gear in massive amounts. It doesnt bother me personally, if I had my own business id probably do the same thing. Its a good thing to believe in what you do. I think if you just back off on so much promotion and maybe just post more regular correspondence with members here youll have an easier time. (Believe me, I know) Best of luck man, and thanks for the insight on my issue.

I can see I still have alot to learn. thank you for taking the time to point a few of my mistakes out. I guess I am very proud of my equipment to a fault, that might turn people off from it. I will learn from what you have said and try and focus on my communication and my web site / ebay store front.

Thank you again for taking the time to point these things out.

Not True check out our specs on our preamps they are as good or better then any preamp made that operates on 9 volts

He's entitled to his opinion, as you're entitled to yours.  So - both your statements are true.  As is this one:  "good" specs do not necessarily equal "good" sound.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I would like to send you a pair of my mics and preamp for you to evaluate email mail me with your address. Allow a couple of weeks because it will take some time to get them built as this is my busy time of the year. As for what capsule I am using I don't talk about it. AT uses OEM capsules for some of the mics they make they will not disclose that info anymore then I would. Because its a very competitive market I am in, but I will say that they sound very good after I am finished with my modifications. I do things like replacing the fet re-tensioning the diaphram changing the dimentions of the back chamber and a few other little trade secrets. Some extra sheilding to bring the noise down to about 22db. The preamp has a linkwitz mod in it. Then there is the preamp it self 100% sheided in copper foil. 

I'd like to volunteer myself to try out your cardioid system* and report back - I currently record 4-5 gigs a month, mostly stealth, a few open on a stand, and typically from 100-3000 seaters.

I can run A:B comparisons against either CMC2(AT831)  or (shortly) AT933 mics, as I have two working Nomad JB3s.

Of course if you'd prefer someone closer to home, so be it.

Humbug

* I've asked before, but I'd like to know what mics you're using for this.

[Brian Skalinder]

I can see I still have alot to learn. thank you for taking the time to point a few of my mistakes out.

We all have a lot to learn, about a variety of topics.  Life is learning (or ought to be, IMO).  I wasn't so much trying to point out your "mistakes" (which carries a negative connotation), as identify opportunities for improvement.  We all have opportunities for improvement, both personally and professionally.

I guess I am very proud of my equipment to a fault, that might turn people off from it.

It's important to believe in your product.  Belief or pride in and of itself is not a "fault".  And actually, I have the opposite challenge right now:  I don't believe in the solution with which I'm affiliated at work, at least not how my current employer envisions it.  As such, I probably turn people off from it unintentionally.  But don't tell my boss!  I gather you're self-employed, and I must say - in many ways I'm envious.

I will learn from what you have said and try and focus on my communication and my web site / ebay store front.

I think even some relatively simple changes to the web presence will help.  I fully understand using the eBay storefront as the transaction mechanism.  I would first focus on the eBay listings' content, organization, and layout, though I'm not sure how much flexibility eBay provides in this regard.  Then maybe create a Church Audio website (www.churchaudio.com or some such) as an "organization front".  Include info about you, your company, your mission / goals.  Be sure to include appropriate metadata so others may find your site when searching for their gear.  At first, perhaps just provide product listings - barebones info - that redirects customers to the eBay side of things for detailed info and the actual transactions themselves.  Then eventually build up all the product info listings, details and all, within churchaudio.com proper (as opposed to eBay), but still manage the transactions themselves through eBay since that seems a convenient transaction vehicle.  But by that point, you have a dedicated CA presence, with full control over content, organization, etc., and only relying on eBay for the transaction itself.  Just some thoughts off the top of my head - some might be good ideas, some not so good, so take 'em or leave 'em as you see fit.

Thank you again for taking the time to point these things out.

I truly hope you're taking my comments as they're intended - good-natured and in good-faith.  I'm curious to hear Humbug's A:B comps!

[scoper]

Keep it up, guys - an intelligent, useful discourse!

I have a specific comment about Church Audio, based on my own experience -

1. Communication with customers needs improvement - when I bought my preamp from him it took several followup messages to get shipping data. As noted, Chris also has a tendency towards short, declaritive statements which don't specifically address the issue. This thread has already shown improvement in this regard.

2. My specific experience with his preamp - the preamp has two firm settings - +27db/-27db. There is no variable option to attenuate the +27db down a bit, which is an issue with my mics (AT853) which run fairly hot. Admittedly, that may be a lot to expect from a $45 product (looks like the price has gone up recently - that's what I paid a few months back). Competing preamps that allow for variable attenuation are considerably more expensive.

I ended up with an AD-20, since the range of +17 > +45 is variable, and should the +17 still be too much, I have level controls on my battery box to act as an attenuator. As he stated, you can't run the battery box in series with his preamp.

I have no reason to disbelieve his claims about the quality of his product - it just didn't work out well for me personally.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I do have a web site the URL is www.church-audio.ca thanks again for your comments.

I can see I still have alot to learn. thank you for taking the time to point a few of my mistakes out.

We all have a lot to learn, about a variety of topics.  Life is learning (or ought to be, IMO).  I wasn't so much trying to point out your "mistakes" (which carries a negative connotation), as identify opportunities for improvement.  We all have opportunities for improvement, both personally and professionally.

I guess I am very proud of my equipment to a fault, that might turn people off from it.

It's important to believe in your product.  Belief or pride in and of itself is not a "fault".  And actually, I have the opposite challenge right now:  I don't believe in the solution with which I'm affiliated at work, at least not how my current employer envisions it.  As such, I probably turn people off from it unintentionally.  But don't tell my boss!  I gather you're self-employed, and I must say - in many ways I'm envious.

I will learn from what you have said and try and focus on my communication and my web site / ebay store front.

I think even some relatively simple changes to the web presence will help.  I fully understand using the eBay storefront as the transaction mechanism.  I would first focus on the eBay listings' content, organization, and layout, though I'm not sure how much flexibility eBay provides in this regard.  Then maybe create a Church Audio website (www.churchaudio.com or some such) as an "organization front".  Include info about you, your company, your mission / goals.  Be sure to include appropriate metadata so others may find your site when searching for their gear.  At first, perhaps just provide product listings - barebones info - that redirects customers to the eBay side of things for detailed info and the actual transactions themselves.  Then eventually build up all the product info listings, details and all, within churchaudio.com proper (as opposed to eBay), but still manage the transactions themselves through eBay since that seems a convenient transaction vehicle.  But by that point, you have a dedicated CA presence, with full control over content, organization, etc., and only relying on eBay for the transaction itself.  Just some thoughts off the top of my head - some might be good ideas, some not so good, so take 'em or leave 'em as you see fit.

Thank you again for taking the time to point these things out.

I truly hope you're taking my comments as they're intended - good-natured and in good-faith.  I'm curious to hear Humbug's A:B comps!

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Hi there I don't know what happend with your emails some times ebay does not forward them properly. I have learned a few things about the AT mics you have they need to be converted to three wire. I then use a linkwitz mod and the mics work very well after that but the real problem is these mics have a problem with overload the linkwitz mod fixes that and allows them to be used with my preamp or any preamp with out problems.
 

Keep it up, guys - an intelligent, useful discourse!

I have a specific comment about Church Audio, based on my own experience -

1. Communication with customers needs improvement - when I bought my preamp from him it took several followup messages to get shipping data. As noted, Chris also has a tendency towards short, declaritive statements which don't specifically address the issue. This thread has already shown improvement in this regard.

2. My specific experience with his preamp - the preamp has two firm settings - +27db/-27db. There is no variable option to attenuate the +27db down a bit, which is an issue with my mics (AT853) which run fairly hot. Admittedly, that may be a lot to expect from a $45 product (looks like the price has gone up recently - that's what I paid a few months back). Competing preamps that allow for variable attenuation are considerably more expensive.

I ended up with an AD-20, since the range of +17 > +45 is variable, and should the +17 still be too much, I have level controls on my battery box to act as an attenuator. As he stated, you can't run the battery box in series with his preamp.

I have no reason to disbelieve his claims about the quality of his product - it just didn't work out well for me personally.

[zowie]

I'd just like to chime in to say that I had an email dialogue with Mr. Church about his products a while back and he was very responsive.   (I ultimately didn't buy, but that was because it turned out not to have the features I wanted, not because of a quality issue. If it was what I was looking for, I'd have bought it.)

Mr. Church, ever think about getting someone else involved with your business?  It sounds like you may have tremendous expertise in some areas while being a bit in the dark about others (as is true of many people, and almost everyone when they are starting out).  If your product is as good as you say, it'd be a shame if it didn't get into people's hands because of optics, especially when others have proven that one can be very successful selling all kinds of crap with the right marketing.  Even a few bucks spent on a local college student to edit copy could go a long way.

Edit: Um, the reporter mic sound sample on your website seems to go dead around the 16 sec mark.

[poorlyconditioned]

Hi there I don't know what happend with your emails some times ebay does not forward them properly. I have learned a few things about the AT mics you have they need to be converted to three wire. I then use a linkwitz mod and the mics work very well after that but the real problem is these mics have a problem with overload the linkwitz mod fixes that and allows them to be used with my preamp or any preamp with out problems.
 

Keep it up, guys - an intelligent, useful discourse!

I have a specific comment about Church Audio, based on my own experience -

1. Communication with customers needs improvement - when I bought my preamp from him it took several followup messages to get shipping data. As noted, Chris also has a tendency towards short, declaritive statements which don't specifically address the issue. This thread has already shown improvement in this regard.

2. My specific experience with his preamp - the preamp has two firm settings - +27db/-27db. There is no variable option to attenuate the +27db down a bit, which is an issue with my mics (AT853) which run fairly hot. Admittedly, that may be a lot to expect from a $45 product (looks like the price has gone up recently - that's what I paid a few months back). Competing preamps that allow for variable attenuation are considerably more expensive.

I ended up with an AD-20, since the range of +17 > +45 is variable, and should the +17 still be too much, I have level controls on my battery box to act as an attenuator. As he stated, you can't run the battery box in series with his preamp.

I have no reason to disbelieve his claims about the quality of his product - it just didn't work out well for me personally.

Hey, I also had some good dialog with you (Church) as well.

By the way, I've also been recommending that everyone run their mics, including AT853s, in "source follower" mode. That is, either 3 wires, or 2 wires, with the Linkwitz mod.  I've got photos/drawings on my website: www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~mannr/AT853.

  Richard

[zowie]

+t for interesting beards.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I have been using a connector made by a company called Mode Electronics its a 6 pin gold connector anyone that needs the specs or product# let me know its much better then then small ta3 connector it locks this is what I use on my cardiod mic system using the linkwitz 3 wire mod.

Hi there I don't know what happend with your emails some times ebay does not forward them properly. I have learned a few things about the AT mics you have they need to be converted to three wire. I then use a linkwitz mod and the mics work very well after that but the real problem is these mics have a problem with overload the linkwitz mod fixes that and allows them to be used with my preamp or any preamp with out problems.
 

Keep it up, guys - an intelligent, useful discourse!

I have a specific comment about Church Audio, based on my own experience -

1. Communication with customers needs improvement - when I bought my preamp from him it took several followup messages to get shipping data. As noted, Chris also has a tendency towards short, declaritive statements which don't specifically address the issue. This thread has already shown improvement in this regard.

2. My specific experience with his preamp - the preamp has two firm settings - +27db/-27db. There is no variable option to attenuate the +27db down a bit, which is an issue with my mics (AT853) which run fairly hot. Admittedly, that may be a lot to expect from a $45 product (looks like the price has gone up recently - that's what I paid a few months back). Competing preamps that allow for variable attenuation are considerably more expensive.

I ended up with an AD-20, since the range of +17 > +45 is variable, and should the +17 still be too much, I have level controls on my battery box to act as an attenuator. As he stated, you can't run the battery box in series with his preamp.

I have no reason to disbelieve his claims about the quality of his product - it just didn't work out well for me personally.

Hey, I also had some good dialog with you (Church) as well.

By the way, I've also been recommending that everyone run their mics, including AT853s, in "source follower" mode. That is, either 3 wires, or 2 wires, with the Linkwitz mod.  I've got photos/drawings on my website: www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~mannr/AT853.

  Richard

[rdflash]

Have the results been posted of the testing of CHURCH-AUDIO's products...just curious.

Also, what is the best CHURCH-AUDIO product you make Mr. Church?  In other words, which one of your mics is the best?  and which one of your pre-amp/batt. boxes is the best?  and can you buy both of them in a package deal??

lemme kno.  thanks!

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

Hi the best package we make is our cardioid microphone system it includes a preamp. Some people have wondered why we are including a preamp, it's simply because we do a linkwitz mod and convert the capsules to 3 wire. This increases the SPL we use a dupont calibrator that puts out 1k at 114db. At this level our system puts out less then 0.06% distortion. Based on these figures we have figured our max SPL to be around 123db of real SPL at 1%. Now as most of you are aware I am not just a mic builder I am a sound engineer. I mix concerts for bands this give me a real perspective on real world concert levels. They rarely go about 114db to 116db and never go to 120 db unless the sound engineer mixing the conert is an idiot. So we feel that these mics have a very good REAL distortion spec. Now that is only half of the story we do not use an off the shelf capsule. We take the capsule and modify it. We do things like retension the diaphram, change the back chamber size, portsize, and add an acoustic damping material. What does all this mean a better sounding microphone that picks up a concert the way it happend. freq response is a real 15hz to 19k. We feel there is alot of people making mics that simply take a soldering iron to a capsule and add wires. We go way beyond that we feel anybody can solder some wires to a capsule, Not just anyone can come up with real modifications that make a microphone actually sound better then it did before the mods. So how did I come up with these mods I used my EARS and my computer programs but in the end it was my EARS that told me the truth that some of the mods did not change anything some of the mods did I kept the ones that did and forgot about the ones that did not. This is why I feel this microphone system sounds great. Here is a sample recording tell me what you think.

Chris Church

Have the results been posted of the testing of CHURCH-AUDIO's products...just curious.

Also, what is the best CHURCH-AUDIO product you make Mr. Church?  In other words, which one of your mics is the best?  and which one of your pre-amp/batt. boxes is the best?  and can you buy both of them in a package deal??

lemme kno.  thanks!

[RebelRebel]

wow, that was a quick sample. 

Hi the best package we make is our cardioid microphone system it includes a preamp. Some people have wondered why we are including a preamp, it's simply because we do a linkwitz mod and convert the capsules to 3 wire. This increases the SPL we use a dupont calibrator that puts out 1k at 114db. At this level our system puts out less then 0.06% distortion. Based on these figures we have figured our max SPL to be around 123db of real SPL at 1%. Now as most of you are aware I am not just a mic builder I am a sound engineer. I mix concerts for bands this give me a real perspective on real world concert levels. They rarely go about 114db to 116db and never go to 120 db unless the sound engineer mixing the conert is an idiot. So we feel that these mics have a very good REAL distortion spec. Now that is only half of the story we do not use an off the shelf capsule. We take the capsule and modify it. We do things like retension the diaphram, change the back chamber size, portsize, and add an acoustic damping material. What does all this mean a better sounding microphone that picks up a concert the way it happend. freq response is a real 15hz to 19k. We feel there is alot of people making mics that simply take a soldering iron to a capsule and add wires. We go way beyond that we feel anybody can solder some wires to a capsule, Not just anyone can come up with real modifications that make a microphone actually sound better then it did before the mods. So how did I come up with these mods I used my EARS and my computer programs but in the end it was my EARS that told me the truth that some of the mods did not change anything some of the mods did I kept the ones that did and forgot about the ones that did not. This is why I feel this microphone system sounds great. Here is a sample recording tell me what you think.

Chris Church

Have the results been posted of the testing of CHURCH-AUDIO's products...just curious.

Also, what is the best CHURCH-AUDIO product you make Mr. Church?  In other words, which one of your mics is the best?  and which one of your pre-amp/batt. boxes is the best?  and can you buy both of them in a package deal??

lemme kno.  thanks!

[rdflash]

the sample isnt working it says 0 kb, so I am guessing there is nothing there, and the file didnt upload

[scoper]

I just ran some tests at home, with the following gear:

AT853
SP Battery Box with level controls and bass rolloff (switchable frequencies)
Church Audio Preamp
jb3
SVU-1

I recorded a song I knew to be bass-heavy (Bruce Springsteen "Born in the USA" from the live 75-85 box).

Levels on the BB were set to 2/3 volume (to attenuate the signal slightly)
Mics were setup 1" from the speakers, volume up loud (close to loud concert level, I estimate)
Input level was optimized using the SVU-1, calibrated to peak at -3

First pass, with NO bass rolloff, the recording distorted horribly, even though the recording (as shown in Adobe Audition) stayed steady at -3 db - a clear brickwall.

Second pass, with rolloff filter set to 69hz (the next lowest setting), the recording was clean - still plenty of bass, but not distorted.

An offline conversation with Chris Church established that you CAN put the battery box in series, between the mics and the preamp, without it harming the mics. However, at least with the AT853's, be careful of the bass output, because it will overload the preamp.

Other recordings with less bass were not a problem.

I'll be testing this combo on Thursday, for the Roches holiday show at Town Hall in NYC. I'm in the 2nd row, so I expect I'll be getting sound primarily from the stage monitors, which has been a problem in the past. We'll see how it goes.

Scott

[rdflash]

+ T Scott

but doesnt Church's pre-amp have level controls and bass rolloff switchable frequencies as well?

and do you have his mics at all...or has anybody tried his card. mics.?

[scoper]

but doesnt Church's pre-amp have level controls and bass rolloff switchable frequencies as well?

No, the Church preamp (at least the one I have, the ST-20A) has but two toggle switches:
On/Off
-27db/+27db

No other controls. I normally use an AD-20 to provide digital line-in to the jb3, but a friend is doing a mod for me for 1/8" input, and I won't have it back in time for the show this week, so I tested the combo beforehand.