Topic: TASCAM DR-2d - announced at NAMM

[Todd R]

Sorry Will, scratch what I said.  I read too quickly and thought you said you got -3dbFS when you were expecting 0.  I really don't know how to make judgements using consumer gear that only show nominal output values.

My testing using my V3 which posts/specs max voltage out on the analog outputs when the V3 hits 0dbFS on its A/D tells me that the max line in seems to be +6dbV, as per the DR2d specs.  I've also proved to myself that I need to use attenuator cables with my V3 if I want to send signals to both the D50 and the DR2d, so I guess I have the info I need and am good to go. 

I only really need -11db cables though, so maybe sometime I'll get those built. Good enough for now, I'm anxious to get to the real field trials.    It's also nice to know that by level matching between the V3 and DR2d, I can run the DR2d line in using the V3 and still be able to set my levels on the fly using the V3.  The right -11db cables will make that more accurate, but at least I don't need to worry that the DR2d doesn't allow on-the-fly line-in adjustments.

[Will_S]

I think I'm good to go too in that I know I don't want to run the mic in any lower than 70.  But your results would imply never run the line in below 100 (or at least, you need external attenuation for any signal that would hit full scale below line in 100) whereas I get very close to full scale with a signal that should be much lower than that, and just mildly brickwalls the mic in.  But I found one page suggesting that typical DVD players can have max outputs close to 2V or 6 dbV.  So maybe my DVD player does have a hot output, but the mic in can take a hotter signal than Tascam specs even if not quite as hot as the line in.

[Todd R]

I'm wondering if the max mic input is much higher than Tascam's stated -16dbV. 

I'm not sure I'll get a chance for more testing until this weekend -- a little late considering I have a show to tape on Friday.   Anyway, I'm going to try to do some more testing of the mic input using a 1kHz test tone fed through my V3.  I may need to rely once again on the V3 specs being correct, but I might be able to measure the actual output voltage of the V3.

I only was testing before checking levels and testing my attenuator cables.  I'd like to test the mic and line inputs using a pure 1kHz test tone and feed different output levels from the V3.  I'm hoping that with a pure test tone input, it will be easy to spot distortion on the recorded wave and determine when that is occurring. 

I certainly would like to record without attenuator cables.  I'm pretty sure from my testing that I will need them for my V3 output since it is so hot, but I'm wondering if I really would need them for mics>Littlebox fed into the DR2d mic input.

[Gutbucket]

Excellent analysis guys. I'll be refering back to this.

[Patrick M.]

Since the files are split after the 2gb mark, is there and easy program that will join them together seamlessly?

[Will_S]

I'm wondering if the max mic input is much higher than Tascam's stated -16dbV. 

Upon further review this appears to be correct.  I did some testing today (details below), to summarize briefly:
Running line in below 100 will result in chopped waveforms.  Scratch this - turns out it was my source that was clipping.
Running mic in below 67 will result in significant distortion.  But levels between 67 and 99 provide usable attenuation (or lack of gain?). Mic in appears to be able to handle a signal as hot as within 4-5 dB to what the line in can handle at 100.  Taking your V3 results at face value, that would suggest a max input on the mic in of about 0 dbV.

Details:

I generated a 1 KHz sine wave with peaks at -0.1 dBFS in Sound Studio on my Mac.  Went USB out > Lyrix Headstage DAC/headphone amp at max output > DR2D (recording 24/44.1).

First, for a reference level, I found the digital volume adjustment needed on my Mac's output needed to yield levels just shy of triggering the clip light on the DR2D (it's worth noting this happened with meters at ~ - 2 dBFS) at line in / 100.  This required a volume adjustment of -6.5 dB.  http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/LineIn100.wav  [warning - these sine waves are not fun to listen to, especially at high volume]

Then I ramped the digital volume control up to -0.5 dBV.  This required line in be bumped down to 94 to avoid clipping on the meters.  The resulting file sounds audibly different and has visibly flattened peaks and an altered Fourier analysis - http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/LineIn100.wavhttp://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/LineIn94.wav  While I suspect this level of distortion may not be blatantly obvious on more complex material, it does suggest there is no point running the line in below 100 and thus the lack of control over line in level while recording in dual mode is irrelevant - just set it to 100 and if you need lower levels, you need external attenuation.

Upon further review, it looks like the Lyrix that was clipping, not the DR2D.  Putting an attenuator between the Lyrix and the DR2D still results in a clipped waveform.  By contrast, I was able to burn a CD of the testfile go DVD out > Naiant Tinybox (+4dB gain) > DR2D which clipped the DR2D at line in / 100 but recorded cleanly at line in / 97.  So the line in may be able to handle an even hotter signal at levels below 100, but just how much hotter is unclear.

As to the mic input:  First, I suspected based on the published max input specs that the max input of the mic in, IF AT 100, might be the published -16 dBV, i.e. 22 dB lower than line in's max.  And indeed, putting the digital volume control at -28.5 yielded the target levels for mic in 100, with no distortion.  http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/MicIn100.wav

But it turns out you can usefully attenuate the mic input with the internal level controls - but only down to 67 or so (I'll stick with 70 to be safe).
Results were:
-22.5 dB yields good levels at mic in / low / 88
-16.6 dB at 76
-13.8 at 70
-10.6 at 67
This appears to be the hottest signal it can take without distorting:  http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/MicIn67.wav

This is 4.1 dB lower than what gave me full scale at line in / 100.  If that is +6dBV, it would imply a max input for the mic in about 5 dB lower, so +1dbV or 0dbV to be "safe".

Boosting the signal to -7.4 dB on the digital volume control to get "good" levels at mic in / 65 resulted in significantly more audible (and visible) distortion than the line in / 94 :  http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/MicIn65.wav 

Just for fun I tried - 4.2 dB (i.e. 2 dB hotter than the line in could take), at mic in 61 it got even worse:  http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/MicIn61.wav

It occurred to me that distortion and max input levels might be frequency-dependent, so I reran the -10.6 playback into mic in 67, with a sine wave at 42 Hz.  It was clean:  http://homepage.mac.com/satterwill/Tascam/BassTest.wav

[Todd R]

 

Great stuff Will, thanks for the detailed testing!!

Though clearly I couldn't pinpoint that level of accuracy, those results conform with what I was seeing last night for my first run with the DR2d. The max line in does seem to be +6dbV or something close to it, using my V3 spec'd out as a reference.  But like you found in your testing, it seemed the mic input could take a lot more than the stated -16dbV.  I was feeding it 10-12db more gain from the littlebox than I was expecting, and had the mic levels bumped up to 76.

Everything came out great on the maiden voyage.  I did a pretty quick mixdown of Pigeons>Fishwater using 4ch of Milab vm44 (cards) > V3, and Charter Oak m900 (wide split omnis) > littlebox.  Sounds very good!!  I'm looking forward to what I can get with a little more effort towards a 4ch mix.

Really a nice little recorder!

[johnny9fingers]

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread, I’ve been looking at getting another machine since my brother adopted my GT-R1.  I record ambient sound, people at Fourth of July fireworks, thunderstorms, sounds around town ect.  Concert recording is limited to kids concerts and outdoor music at county fairs and festivals.  I was looking at the Sony PCM-M10, that so many people seem to like.  The DR-07 MKII, great sound but limited in features I may want in the future.  And the DR-100, great sound, ability to use quality external mikes with xlr inputs and sd/sdhc cards.  And being familiar with the Tascam layout & controls,  I was ready to pull the trigger on the DR-100 then started hearing about the DR-2D, and the more I researched, the more I liked.  Now 75% of what you folks were discussing in this thread went right over my head, but what I was able to comprehend is the DR-2D is a capable recorder.  Sounds like the battery life issue has been taken care of, and that was the major gripe.  Plus I can still utilize external mikes in the future, just not XLR, enjoy as good or better sound quality than the GT-R1, all in a small stealthy package.  So it looks like I’ll order the DR-2D next payday.   Thanks again for all the great info……

[genesisoh]

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread, I’ve been looking at getting another machine since my brother adopted my GT-R1.  I record ambient sound, people at Fourth of July fireworks, thunderstorms, sounds around town ect.  Concert recording is limited to kids concerts and outdoor music at county fairs and festivals.  I was looking at the Sony PCM-M10, that so many people seem to like.  The DR-07 MKII, great sound but limited in features I may want in the future.  And the DR-100, great sound, ability to use quality external mikes with xlr inputs and sd/sdhc cards.  And being familiar with the Tascam layout & controls,  I was ready to pull the trigger on the DR-100 then started hearing about the DR-2D, and the more I researched, the more I liked.  Now 75% of what you folks were discussing in this thread went right over my head, but what I was able to comprehend is the DR-2D is a capable recorder.  Sounds like the battery life issue has been taken care of, and that was the major gripe.  Plus I can still utilize external mikes in the future, just not XLR, enjoy as good or better sound quality than the GT-R1, all in a small stealthy package.  So it looks like I’ll order the DR-2D next payday.   Thanks again for all the great info……

Besides the battery issue with the DR-2D, there was also another somewhat common issue: SD card incompatibilities.  The 2D seems to be fairly picky about what card you use.  I had an issue with a Transcend card (received FILE ERROR) on my first recording.  I switched to a Class 4 Kingston (as recommended here) and my next show came off with no hitches. 

It's a great little unit with lot's of potential. 

[Gutbucket]

Anecdotal, but I think the card comaptibility issue may have been improved with one of the firmware issues as well.  I'm using a couple different Trancend 32 GB cards along with various Kingstons regularly, and have used a couple other makes on occasion with no card issues.

[yug du nord]

Hey Gutbucket.............   what happened with your deck that you had to send in for repairs?  I have a friend that thinks that he zapped his deck with too strong of battery....  said he thinks that he blew a fuse or something??  Thanks.

[Gutbucket]

Repaired under warrantee. I think they replaced the main board, but not sure on the details. I had someone handle it for me and didn't talk with Tascam about it myself.

[Will_S]

The max line in does seem to be +6dbV or something close to it, using my V3 spec'd out as a reference.

Did you ever try out a hotter signal into line in set to less than 100?  Looks like it was my headphone amp that was clipping, not the DR2D; so its line in may take a hotter signal than spec'd as well.  Putting my Tinybox between my DVD out and the DR2D in, adding +4 dB gain, I was clipping the DR2D at line in/100 but I could record the same signal cleanly at line in / 97.

Unfortunately the next setting on my Tinybox is +18dB.  At that level, the DR2D could not get a clean recording but then the Tinybox's clip light was on and it was being asked to output a hotter signal than it is spec'd for, so it's not clear whether the DR2D could have handled the signal or not.

I think you should be able to feed your V3 a line signal so you don't need to subject your ears and mics to a test tone at crazy volumes...

[Gutbucket]

I plan to come back and review the level analysis when I have more time to get my head around it.. but one thing comes to mind which you all may have already taken into account: Does converting an balanced output from the V3 to unbalanced for the input of the FR2d reduce level by -6dB? If so that should be taken into account when reading the V3 meters. Please let me know if I'm off-base.

[Todd R]

No Will, after your testing it seemed like it was covered and I never got back to it.  I'll try to get some time this weekend to run through some more testing using the V3.  You're right though, no reason to do it using mics, I can just send the 1kHz signal line-in from my Mac to the V3.  My ears will thank me for that.

Gut -- you're right, the unbalanced signal is 6db lower, but that has already been accounted for.  The V3 specs are +25dbu max at 0dbFS balanced, or +19dbu max unbalanced.  I've been using the +19dbu (+16.8dbV) number for my calculations.