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Gear / Technical Help => Cables => Topic started by: gratefulphish on January 18, 2007, 09:54:40 PM
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If you are given the choice, is there a preferred set of board outputs that I should picK? I know a lot of boards have RCA tape out connectors. Are any of teh other outputs preferable? Are some hotter than others, and if so, and people have referred to using attenuators, are they referring to normal XLR mic pad type attenuators, or something more like the voltage attenuators between AES/EBU and SPDIF? In either case, what level of attenuation should I be prepared to handle?
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The first part of your question depends on the board. For example, at a show several months ago I taped with my mics and patch from the board with my xlrs. The soundguy said that he could do either XLR or RCA but the XLR would be true stereo and the RCA's wouldn't so I just went with the XLRs.
The second part about hotness also depends on the board. I have ran into only one hot board so far and that was before I bought my XLR attenuators. I did buy a pair of Hosa ATT-448 attenuator XLR pads after that but haven't used them yet. They have a choice of either 20, 30, or 40db. Probably for my previous situation I would of pick 20. I went all the way down and it was still peaking.
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Hmmmmmmmm. My pads are only 10db. May need to buy even more gear. Can feel one more vertibrae compressing. Thanks. +T
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The second part about hotness also depends on the board. I have ran into only one hot board so far and that was before I bought my XLR attenuators.
Depending on the board, usually there is an option to turn up or down the output. If your signal is too hot, see if it can be turned down. Too weak and see if it can be turned up. If it can't be controlled and it is too hot, then as mentioned use attenuators. However, you should only have to do this if you are using the XLR outputs. The RCA outs are standard line level outs and should never be too hot.
Wayne
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Depending on the board, usually there is an option to turn up or down the output. If your signal is too hot, see if it can be turned down. Too weak and see if it can be turned up.
Last time I got a SBD patch I accidently ran mic in on my R4 and didn't know until after the show. Luckly the sound guy is cool with me adjusting the output :P
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Hmmmmmmmm. My pads are only 10db. May need to buy even more gear. Can feel one more vertibrae compressing. Thanks. +T
For RCA connectors your looking at a -20 to -10 signal it could also be +4 on some consoles. for a 1/4 output your looking at the same type of signal levels. For XLR out you can get a range from -20 to +4 or even hotter.
I think the best kind of attenuator is one with a control pot. So you can reduce levels. In some cases with cheap sound boards, the sound man does not have control over the output level because its derived from his left and right main output. Some times he does have control but my experience has always been, There is a huge difference between the levels during sound check, to the levels I get during the actual performance. This is because the band is pretty pumped when they get out on stage with a real with an audience.
It's always nice to get good levels during sound check and then back them off about -3 to -6 db so you have some headroom for the first few songs, until the sound man gets the mix together. There is nothing worse then someone bothering me to reduce a level during this time ( because they cant on there end ) So you have to be ( should be )independent, and be able to do it on your end.
A simple 10k dual pot in a project box ( metal )with a set of inputs and outputs will work great. Better then any fixed attenuator because you can just attenuate as much as you have too and not more then you should. Your recordings will have a better signal to noise ratio and you will be able to get the levels exactly where you want them.
Chris Church
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FWIW, I sometimes use the in-line XLR attenuators that go in three increments -- I forget now exactly but something like 15, 25, and 35. They probably color the sound a little, but I also like them cause they still pass phantom, so sometimes I stick one on a mic'ed channel that's too hot for my R4 to be in mic-in mode. On the R4, the mic/line switches two channels at a time, but I often run a main stereo pair, then spot mic two more channels. I always try to use mic-in if possible (better), so if chan 3 can go mic-in but chan 4 is too hot, I'll sometimes patch in the attenuator, and since it still passes phantom everything still works. Although it would be awesome to have a fully-adjustable pot. Anyway, food for thought.
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Thanks, +T all around. I need to see how the sensitivity controls on the R-4 handle things, and then I will decide whether I need more attenuation from there, but you answered my primary question, which was the type of attenuator.
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FWIW, I sometimes use the in-line XLR attenuators that go in three increments -- I forget now exactly but something like 15, 25, and 35. They probably color the sound a little, but I also like them cause they still pass phantom, so sometimes I stick one on a mic'ed channel that's too hot for my R4 to be in mic-in mode. On the R4, the mic/line switches two channels at a time, but I often run a main stereo pair, then spot mic two more channels. I always try to use mic-in if possible (better), so if chan 3 can go mic-in but chan 4 is too hot, I'll sometimes patch in the attenuator, and since it still passes phantom everything still works. Although it would be awesome to have a fully-adjustable pot. Anyway, food for thought.
Actually attenuators that use resistors can lop of a bit of top end but its not that bad it really does depend on the circuits capacitance. We can not escape using the dam things :) every console has a pad on the mic input and that is a set of resistors same thing as the product you have. I like the potentiometer because you can dial in the amount needed no more no less. To get a clean signal.
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I fully understand what you are saying, but it is one more "box" to add to an already full load. In an "ideal" world, that would be my choice, but it also seems that the R-4 Pro sensitivity controls may solve this issue. Time will tell shortly. Thanks again.
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If you use the (balanced) main outs, the signal can be as hot as +28 on some boards.
Most consumer and some pro gear cannot handle levels anywhere near that hot.
I think the R4 is around +10 max.
You have to be prepared for a signal as potentially hot as +28.
I use the Shure A15AS, which has -15,-20,-25 attenuation.
It's a must for the gear bag. XLR input/output and twice the size of XLR connector.
I haven't noticed any coloration.
RCA outputs are going to be lower level, so no louder than +10 and as low as -4
1/4 can vary greatly depending on which output. Most of these outputs are going to have level control.
The best output to take is the main outs, post mix and effects. Many soundmen can mirror this feed to you on a sub or aux send with gain control. I always go for th main outs, louder and cleaner signal usally. YMMV....
Cheers, Phil
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The best output to take is the main outs, post mix and effects. Many soundmen can mirror this feed to you on a sub or aux send with gain control. I always go for th main outs, louder and cleaner signal usally. YMMV....
The *best* output to take is a matrix output with everything, including effects fed to it. That way, any fader changes to the main L and R outs do not effect your tape. Many small format boards don't have a matrix section, but with a PM4/5K, Midas XL , or most other tour grade consoles, setting up a matrix feed is the real way to go.
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Same difference...... you are looking for the main outs post effects. I would actually prefer to have exactly what the LR is outputting to the mains. Being post fader, the signal output is almost always more uniform and balanced and makes for better 2 track recording.
Whether you use matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......you want to be post all effects and all faders for a 2 track recording. Some would argue that point about effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording, but I've found that unless the compression is ridiculous, it's going to sound much better than a dry pre mixed signal any day.
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If you use the (balanced) main outs, the signal can be as hot as +28 on some boards.
Most consumer and some pro gear cannot handle levels anywhere near that hot.
I think the R4 is around +10 max.
You have to be prepared for a signal as potentially hot as +28.
I use the Shure A15AS, which has -15,-20,-25 attenuation.
It's a must for the gear bag. XLR input/output and twice the size of XLR connector.
I haven't noticed any coloration.
RCA outputs are going to be lower level, so no louder than +10 and as low as -4
1/4 can vary greatly depending on which output. Most of these outputs are going to have level control.
The best output to take is the main outs, post mix and effects. Many sound men can mirror this feed to you on a sub or aux send with gain control. I always go for the main outs, louder and cleaner signal usually. YMMV....
Cheers, Phil
The left and right feeds are the money feeds :) That's why we watch them like a hawk when someone asks for a feed from my sound board. I might put on a pair of headphones once to listen to levels, but my main job is the left and right house mix, and any delay stacks I might have. I like most live sound engineers do not have much time for doing a discrete mix on aux sends.. In the end your always at the mercy of the FOH sound engineer.
I would always talk to a FOH sound engineer like this
1- Can I get a feed from your console if yes move to step 2
2- Can I get it from a matrix output that comes from left and right house feeds? if yes proceed to step 3 9 times out of 10 it will be XLR male connectors from this output.
3- Is your house eq's inserted on the left and right? if so can you give me a pre insert feed from the matrix out? if no proceed to step 4
4- If no then can you give me a control room out? or a tape out? if yes your in business if no then the last resort is a aux mix ( then you have to decide what to ask for) in the way of instruments. In the end you get what you get. But if you at least sound like you know what end the xlr looks like sound engineers like me are more then willing to help you get what you need. I know it sounds snobbish but its a real war fount of house sound engineers wage, I will not let a board feed jeopardize my show, I will always concentrate on my house mix. That's because I just want to keep my job. As a taper you have to realize this FOH guy has a very hard job and he will always value people that know what they want and be able to communicate it fast, Time is money.
Just my two cents.
Chris Church
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Same difference...... you are looking for the main outs post effects. I would actually prefer to have exactly what the LR is outputting to the mains. Being post fader, the signal output is almost always more uniform and balanced and makes for better 2 track recording.
Whether you use matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......you want to be post all effects and all faders for a 2 track recording. Some would argue that point about effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording, but I've found that unless the compression is ridiculous, it's going to sound much better than a dry pre mixed signal any day.
Not the same at all. There is a big difference between an aux out, a subgroup out, a matrix out, a B mix out, and the mains out. Yes, the simple answer for recording is to take the mains out, but most of the time the main outs are already spoken for...for what they are intended...the mains. An aux out, even a stereo mix, isn't going to yield you the best results since, even if the engineer sets every channel to unity on the aux send of each channel, you still aren't going to get the effects returns on your tape, unless, of course, the engineer brings all his effects back in channels and remembers to send the effects out on the tape aux feed. Subgroup outputs aren't going to do you much good for a recording, since, generally speaking, they are used for grouping instruments, vocals, etc, and, again, you aren't going to get effects. Plus, most small format consoles don't even have subgroup outputs (none on the Midas Venice, the small format console flavor of the month). The B mix output is a safe bet to get a decent tape, but the B mix usually follows the main L and R faders...which is OK, but any changes made to the mains (L & R) will effect your recording. My solution is this......I set up a stereo matrix mix of all my subgroup or VCA outputs, plus all my effects returns, and record from that. That way, if I add 3 or 4db at the end of a song to the live mix, it doesn't effect the recording. Of course, this can only be done with a board with a true matrix section (aka a PM3/4/5K, XL, etc...), and with an engineer who is willing to work with you to figure out what you want on the tape.
I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to when you mention "effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording", but any channel eq change is going to effect a board recording on any output from the board. The main EQ isn't going to affect your tape at all since you are getting a signal before the signal even hits the EQ.
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Someone loves to argue silly symantics don't they...... ;)
I said, POST all effects, faders, eq, compression, etc....
What the LR or mains are outputting. I even said it twice!
You can send that LR signal to any output the engineer has open and is willing to give you.
Which output or what one board or engineer may call it or send it to, the point is to get
the feed you are looking for. POST everything.
That's the reason it's better to just go after the mains unless you have a very friendly FOH engineer willing to set up a seperate feed for you. Chances are not good that will happen even half the time.
It's not rocket science here. I wasn't saying matrix, aux, or subs are the same thing, that's just twisting words for arguments's sake.
The point I was making was you should always go after the feed you are actually listening to in the room live.
(edit: nevermind....)
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Same difference...... you are looking for the main outs post effects. I would actually prefer to have exactly what the LR is outputting to the mains. Being post fader, the signal output is almost always more uniform and balanced and makes for better 2 track recording.
Whether you use matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......you want to be post all effects and all faders for a 2 track recording. Some would argue that point about effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording, but I've found that unless the compression is ridiculous, it's going to sound much better than a dry pre mixed signal any day.
Not the same at all. There is a big difference between an aux out, a subgroup out, a matrix out, a B mix out, and the mains out. Yes, the simple answer for recording is to take the mains out, but most of the time the main outs are already spoken for...for what they are intended...the mains. An aux out, even a stereo mix, isn't going to yield you the best results since, even if the engineer sets every channel to unity on the aux send of each channel, you still aren't going to get the effects returns on your tape, unless, of course, the engineer brings all his effects back in channels and remembers to send the effects out on the tape aux feed. Subgroup outputs aren't going to do you much good for a recording, since, generally speaking, they are used for grouping instruments, vocals, etc, and, again, you aren't going to get effects. Plus, most small format consoles don't even have subgroup outputs (none on the Midas Venice, the small format console flavor of the month). The B mix output is a safe bet to get a decent tape, but the B mix usually follows the main L and R faders...which is OK, but any changes made to the mains (L & R) will effect your recording. My solution is this......I set up a stereo matrix mix of all my subgroup or VCA outputs, plus all my effects returns, and record from that. That way, if I add 3 or 4db at the end of a song to the live mix, it doesn't effect the recording. Of course, this can only be done with a board with a true matrix section (aka a PM3/4/5K, XL, etc...), and with an engineer who is willing to work with you to figure out what you want on the tape.
I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to when you mention "effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording", but any channel eq change is going to effect a board recording on any output from the board. The main EQ isn't going to affect your tape at all since you are getting a signal before the signal even hits the EQ.
Just to let you know there is no such thing as a VCA output. They don't exist on any console because vca's are not used to subgroup in the true sense of the word they control subgroups or what ever is assigned to them but they work on a dc voltage of 0 to 10volts then they re rough the audio back to the input or output in question. I don't use subgroups on a console I prefer like most sound engineers to assign everything to left and right. The only time I will use subgroups is on small shows where there is not enough compressors for vocals. But more often then not I will use the VCA'S if its a good console like a pm4000 or a XL4 or Heritage 3000. But never on a cheap console. And as for asking me for a discrete mix. That's not likely going to happen as a front of house engineer all of your time is spent getting the mix together.
I think you are better off not asking for so much and just getting a matrix out or control room out, but don't ask for a mix they way you want it because we simply don't have time to "babysit it" You would be better off getting something that is a derivative of left and right. If the mix is not that good IE vocals were not on top then the front of house engineer sucked anyway. Even your mics will not sound much better. If he is a good sound engineer your mix from the console for the most part will be spot on. There are always exceptions to this rule but generally they apply to amplified instruments coming off the stage. Like Guitar amps that are too loud or bass amps in a small theater or small club they might be down in the board mix but your room mics will compensate for that.
I just want people to know that when your doing front of house sound its a challenge to begin with you have a room you have never been too and a system you might be unfamiliar with. Its all you can do to just make it sound good. Its a very hard job, the best thing to do for a sound engineer is respect the fact that you might not always get what you want but some time you just might find you get what you need :) ( sorry I had to use that )
Also when you get a matrix out from the console if there is a eq inserted on the left and right you might get that going to tape because on some consoles the effects send and matrix input are POST FADER from left and right Not pre fader.
Just my two cents.
Chris Church
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That's the reason it's better to just go after the mains unless you have a very friendly FOH engineer willing to set up a seperate feed for you. Chances are not good that will happen even half the time.
Well, I say good luck taking the main output from a console for your recording.....
If you ask me for my main outs so that you can make a recording, my response will be something like this "yeah, sure, I'd give you the main L & R out......if it wasn't being used to send the signal to the mains. would you like me to set up a matrix mix for you?"
I fully understand what you are trying to do....get everything post eq/fader/comp, but what I am saying is there are many more ways to get that than from the main L&R outputs....there are even better ways to get that than the main L&R outs. I don't want my recording affected by fader moves made on the L&R outs, that's why I set up a matrix for my record feed when possible, using the signal derived from my subgroups.
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Just to let you know there is no such thing as a VCA output. They don't exist on any console because vca's are not used to subgroup in the true sense of the word they control subgroups or what ever is assigned to them but they work on a dc voltage of 0 to 10volts then they re rough the audio back to the input or output in question. I don't use subgroups on a console I prefer like most sound engineers to assign everything to left and right. The only time I will use subgroups is on small shows where there is not enough compressors for vocals. But more often then not I will use the VCA'S if its a good console like a pm4000 or a XL4 or Heritage 3000. But never on a cheap console. And as for asking me for a discrete mix. That's not likely going to happen as a front of house engineer all of your time is spent getting the mix together.
I'm not suggesting taking a physical output from a VCA, since, like you said, there is no such thing. What I was suggesting was routing your VCA's to the matrix section and setting up a recording from there. As for subgroups, I tend to use them on big consoles, but on smaller boards, I'll just route everything to L&R. It doesn't matter if you use subgroups or not.....the signal eventually gets to the L&R outs no matter how you decide to route it. If you do use the subgroups and set them up with, say, drums in 1&2, horns/toys in 3&4, bass/guitar in 5&6, and vocals in 7&8, then you can route the subgroups to the matrix section. Fader moves on the subgroups will affect the tape feed, but fader moves on the L&R main outs won't. That was my point.
Also when you get a matrix out from the console if there is a eq inserted on the left and right you might get that going to tape because on some consoles the effects send and matrix input are POST FADER from left and right Not pre fader.
Matrix INPUTS? Never heard of such a thing on a console. Matrix inserts, maybe, but matrix INPUTS? Not that I am telling you anything that you don't know, but a matrix is simply a way to route a signal to various outputs....such as a record feed, a press feed, a delay feed, etc..
And as far as EQ inserted on the L&R, that EQ will NOT affect your recording if you set up a matrix of your subgroups, since the signal never hits the L&R before it gets to your feed.
I fully understand what Phil is trying to accomplish....but there are many ways to get there...not just the main outs. You just need to know what to ask for. Oh, and as far as the engineer being too busy to set that up for you, I say that's weak sauce. It takes about 10 seconds to turn up the knobs to make this happen. I do it day in and day out for corporate events when the client, at the last minute, says..."this guy is with out Multimedia Department and needs an output for his video camera". It takes longer to walk to the backside of the console to physically plug in his cables than it does to dial in the matrix mix for his send.
I'm not trying to argue here...I'm just saying there are many ways to accomplish a decent recording of the board, and, while asking for the main outs might be the easiest, it's not necessarily the best.
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Just to let you know there is no such thing as a VCA output. They don't exist on any console because vca's are not used to subgroup in the true sense of the word they control subgroups or what ever is assigned to them but they work on a dc voltage of 0 to 10volts then they re rough the audio back to the input or output in question. I don't use subgroups on a console I prefer like most sound engineers to assign everything to left and right. The only time I will use subgroups is on small shows where there is not enough compressors for vocals. But more often then not I will use the VCA'S if its a good console like a pm4000 or a XL4 or Heritage 3000. But never on a cheap console. And as for asking me for a discrete mix. That's not likely going to happen as a front of house engineer all of your time is spent getting the mix together.
I'm not suggesting taking a physical output from a VCA, since, like you said, there is no such thing. What I was suggesting was routing your VCA's to the matrix section and setting up a recording from there. As for subgroups, I tend to use them on big consoles, but on smaller boards, I'll just route everything to L&R. It doesn't matter if you use subgroups or not.....the signal eventually gets to the L&R outs no matter how you decide to route it. If you do use the subgroups and set them up with, say, drums in 1&2, horns/toys in 3&4, bass/guitar in 5&6, and vocals in 7&8, then you can route the subgroups to the matrix section. Fader moves on the subgroups will affect the tape feed, but fader moves on the L&R main outs won't. That was my point.
Also when you get a matrix out from the console if there is a eq inserted on the left and right you might get that going to tape because on some consoles the effects send and matrix input are POST FADER from left and right Not pre fader.
Matrix INPUTS? Never heard of such a thing on a console. Matrix inserts, maybe, but matrix INPUTS? Not that I am telling you anything that you don't know, but a matrix is simply a way to route a signal to various outputs....such as a record feed, a press feed, a delay feed, etc..
And as far as EQ inserted on the L&R, that EQ will NOT affect your recording if you set up a matrix of your subgroups, since the signal never hits the L&R before it gets to your feed.
I fully understand what Phil is trying to accomplish....but there are many ways to get there...not just the main outs. You just need to know what to ask for. Oh, and as far as the engineer being too busy to set that up for you, I say that's weak sauce. It takes about 10 seconds to turn up the knobs to make this happen. I do it day in and day out for corporate events when the client, at the last minute, says..."this guy is with out Multimedia Department and needs an output for his video camera". It takes longer to walk to the backside of the console to physically plug in his cables than it does to dial in the matrix mix for his send.
I'm not trying to argue here...I'm just saying there are many ways to accomplish a decent recording of the board, and, while asking for the main outs might be the easiest, it's not necessarily the best.
Once again there is no such thing as being able to rought a VCA to a matrix VCA'S don't work like that, Maybe you should read a few manuals for some consoles before you start talking to people like they don't know what they are talking about?............
Actually there are matrix inputs on many consoles ( again reading a few manuals might help you here ) the input consist of AUX INPUT LEFT AND RIGHT INPUTS AND SUBGROUP INPUTS. all have there own faders all can be added or subtracted from the matrix itself...........
Actually your point is moot when it comes to subgroups and matrix feeds since 90% of the live sound engineers out there that mix real bands DONT USE SUBGROUPS! why because we prefer to go straight into left and right thus bypassing an unnecessary gain stage. THATS WHY WE HAVE VCA'S so we don't need subgroups * again reading a manual here and there might help you understand this*
Actually setting up a discrete mix takes more then 10 seconds to set it up you actually have to watch the levels that are going to that mix so that it actually sounds like something. In a real show not a small corporate show you get a left and right feed from the matrix and that's it. The idea that you can tell the FOH guy to do a "special" mix for you is insane.
Maybe some might but most will not. My whole point is this be nice to the FOH guy and he will be nice to you. Be a jerk and ask for a bunch of shit and he will treat you like a knob, The whole point of you not taking his left and right feed is an insult to most FOH guys because they feel that that mix will be good. After all its what they are getting paid for.........
I think its easy to dole out information. I have been doing sound for 20+ years I have worked with many bands. Most of them major recording acts, Here in Canada and the USA. When it comes to sound man edicate I know what the hell I am talking about. I would never in a million years assume that the sound man in question would be using subgroups and to assume that you can just ask for what ever mix you want LOL. where have you been doing sound????
I did a show where there was NBC, ABC, CBS, CSPAN, CNN, and some other smaller affiliates. I gave them all a matrix from my left and right and called it a day! NOT one of them said can I get a mix of your subgroups.
Chris Church
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You are right, Chris. I know nothing about what I am talking about, and I haven't been doing live sound in both concert and coroprate settings for nearly 20 years, and I don't own a regional sound company, nor a nearly $100K Meyer PA system, as well as several B systems. Never worked with major nationals, and have never mixed a live event going out over a major network. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to audio. Infact, I have never even been behind a console before. We all know that you are the true authority when it comes to live sound mixing. I bow down before thee, all knowing one.
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You are right, Chris. I know nothing about what I am talking about, and I haven't been doing live sound in both concert and coroprate settings for nearly 20 years, and I don't own a regional sound company, nor a nearly $100K Meyer PA system, as well as several B systems. Never worked with major nationals, and have never mixed a live event going out over a major network. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to audio. Infact, I have never even been behind a console before. We all know that you are the true authority when it comes to live sound mixing. I bow down before thee, all knowing one.
Dude a 100k Meyer rig would buy you a few monitors and a few MSL3'S and some 650's :) If you want to compare dollar value I think you would lose. I have worked for companies that have Millions in inventory not $1000's I have worked for companies Like Clair Brothers, BCB, Solotech. The list goes on. I can show you my resume if you would like to get into a pissing contest. I just think you were handing out incorrect information and I corrected you. Plain and simple. I can see you don't like to be corrected but I think there is a real danger when handing out incorrect information. So thank you for bowing down to me. I don't need your bows. I am sorry you got offended.
You know when someone points out my mistakes, I don't get angry I get smarter :) That's how people in this industry learn from one another. I admit I should have not said read the manual :) that was rude, but you were pretty mean to that other poster. And I thought you could use a little tune up.
I have had more then my fair share of tune ups here when I was wrong :)
Please except my apology and lets move on.....
Chris Church
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You are right, Chris. I know nothing about what I am talking about, and I haven't been doing live sound in both concert and coroprate settings for nearly 20 years, and I don't own a regional sound company, nor a nearly $100K Meyer PA system, as well as several B systems. Never worked with major nationals, and have never mixed a live event going out over a major network. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to audio. Infact, I have never even been behind a console before. We all know that you are the true authority when it comes to live sound mixing. I bow down before thee, all knowing one.
Dude a 100k Meyer rig would buy you a few monitors and a few MSL3'S and some 650's :) If you want to compare dollar value I think you would lose. I have worked for companies that have Millions in inventory not $1000's I have worked for companies Like Clair Brothers, BCB, Solotech.
A slew of UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, a couple of Midas', an old PM3k....then double it for the big events with another local sound co. It's easy enough to call down the street to Maryland Sound to subrent an XL4, or a PM5D...makes no sense for me to keep a $150K board or a half million dollar line array in my inventory.
It's nice to work for companies like Clair....but I'd personally rather own the company, the truck, and the rig and work for myself. I've been the freelance engineer...working on the road for various companies, and trust me, although not as glamourous as mixing monitors behind a big board in a big arena, owning the company and having people work for you is far more rewarding, in my opinion.
To each his own.
I certainly accept an apology from you, although it's not really needed since, at least in my opinion, this is a discussion, not an argument.
As far as "handing out incorrect information", all I was saying is that there is more than one way to accomplish a tape mix...and that the main L&R output might not always be the *best*, like he claimed. A "matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......", as the poster claimed, is clearly not the same thing, and a feed out of an aux send or out of a sub(group) is not always going to get you a post fx, eq, fader 2 track mix. In fact, it hardly ever will. I fully understand what he is trying to accomplish here, and all I am saying is there is more than one way to get there, and the "main outs" are usually not even going to be an option for a recording since they usually fed the main EQ/processor, and not a tapirs two track recorder. At least, in my experience.
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Wow , lots of good reading here. I just joined this site to read up on this topic.
Please pardon the newbie question, but Anyone know what cable(s) I will need to record a SBD feed from a
Allen & Heath GL2400-24 into my Digital 7 pin cable plugged into Sony D8?
Or What would be the best method in general using a Sony D8?
Thanks for any tips, and Ive got a lot more to read...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/ (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/)
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Wow , lots of good reading here. I just joined this site to read up on this topic.
Please pardon the newbie question, but Anyone know what cable(s) I will need to record a SBD feed from a
Allen & Heath GL2400-24 into my Digital 7 pin cable plugged into Sony D8?
Or What would be the best method in general using a Sony D8?
Thanks for any tips, and Ive got a lot more to read...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/ (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/)
The gl series has control room outs on it or tape outputs that would be the best method IMO if your using the tape outs they are RCA if your using the control room outs they are 1/4 inch.
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Wow , lots of good reading here. I just joined this site to read up on this topic.
Please pardon the newbie question, but Anyone know what cable(s) I will need to record a SBD feed from a
Allen & Heath GL2400-24 into my Digital 7 pin cable plugged into Sony D8?
Or What would be the best method in general using a Sony D8?
Thanks for any tips, and Ive got a lot more to read...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/ (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/)
The gl series has control room outs on it or tape outputs that would be the best method IMO if your using the tape outs they are RCA if your using the control room outs they are 1/4 inch.
The GL2400 also has a 7x4 matrix section that you could build a mix on. The matrix outputs are 1/4".
Like with most things audio, there is no *best* way. The RCA outs from the tape out might be the easiest way to go, though.
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I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....
But >:D
I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...
I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...
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I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....
But >:D
I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...
I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...
good point.....run the board output to the input of a SBM1, then come out of it with your 7 pin SPDIF cable.
or run analog into the D8.
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I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....
But >:D
I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...
I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...
Ok trick question I get it :) I know the 7 pin cable is digital. I stand corrected... >:D
Chris Church
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just to interrupt for a moment-- I don't understand much about any of this world of recording directly from a soundboard, however I am going to be recording a couple of shows coming up very soon, at least one of which I will be recording via-soundboard. I have read this discussion thouroughly enough to have learned that I may need "attenuators" to keep my unit from melting(?) blowing up(?) otherwise dying(?). I have all of the adaptors and cables I need in order to hook myself up to RCA / XLR / 1/8" / 1/4" outputs from a sounboard, but I have no attenuators. I understand that I won't need them for a signal coming via-RCA, and that I may well need them for a signal coming from XLR. My questions are basically as follows:
1- Do I need attenuators (my recorder is a iRiver H120)
2- Where do I buy them
3- How do I use them (how do I know how far down to turn the signal? Is an attenuator just turning down the volume or the electricity-- or are those the same?)
4- Basically anything else a new-to-sbd should know!
thanks as always guys!
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I understand that I won't need them for a signal coming via-RCA, and that I may well need them for a signal coming from XLR. My questions are basically as follows:
1- Do I need attenuators (my recorder is a iRiver H120)
Maybe. It all depends on where the output is coming from on the board and if the FOH engineer is nice enough to turn things down if they are too hot or up if not hot enough (assuming he or she has control of this).
2- Where do I buy them
Any pro audio shop, ebay, guitar center, you name it they probably have them. Loads of mail order houses have them. There are two that I highly recommend, either the Shure model or the AudioTechnica versions. Both are XLR only though.
3- How do I use them (how do I know how far down to turn the signal? Is an attenuator just turning down the volume or the electricity-- or are those the same?)
The AT and Shure models use a switch. -20, -15, and -10 dB or something similar. As you monitor your recording, you'll know when you have padded the signal properly.
Wayne
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There are also some level shifting devices on the market...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LLS2/
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There are also some level shifting devices on the market...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LLS2/
Your better off with an actual attenuator then a converter this thing is just a pad with a few resistors. I think I might end up having to make a product because there seems to be a lot of confusion about this subject. It safe to say that you should have in your kit a way to reduce the signal at least 20db I think the best way to do this is with a pot not a fixed resistor. The reason being is with unbalanced connections you need to maximize your signal to noise ratio in other words attenuate as little as possible. Because the more you attenuate the more you may have to boost on the recorder end. That being said most recorders can only handle about -10 db at the line input before they run into distortion this distortion can not be fixed by the control on the device it self because its a digital control. So you need an external control of the level so you can knock it down to -15 or so and have about 5 db of headroom A simple 10k pot for most applications would work fine. A fixed pad will work too but you might end up cutting more level then you need too and increasing your signal to noise ratio in the process. So I think an interface with a VU meter and a volume pot would be in order so the user could see the incoming level before his or her recording device and pad it down accordingly maybe have a pre pot and post pot switch for the VU as well so they can see the difference?? what do you guys think?
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I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....
But >:D
I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...
I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...
Thanks for all the tips, I guess RCA is going to be my best bet since the 7pin might not be useful.
I do have a RCA > 1/4 adapter that plugs in to my line in jack. So, my question now is I can just accept the signal as is? I would have to use headphones to monitor and ask politely to adjust if possible? I dont have a 1/8 stereo mini, will I be ok with just RCA > 1/4?
Thanks for all the helpful advice guys.
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Wow, I started this thread, and it took off into a virtual shooting war, and has now calmed back down to some useful answers. In my case, I was able to successfully deal with a hot board patch, as the R-4 Pro's sensitivity settings allowed me to take the signal down by 20 db or so. I also found out from Edirol, (after asking their tech, and having him call Japan for the answer) that the R-4 Pro (I don't know about the R-4) actually shows you if your analog input is clipping, as well as also separately showing digital clipping. I wasn't sure what it was at first, but by lowering the sensitivity levels, the clip indicator stopped, and I could use the trim controls from there. From that perspective, I love the features on this machine.
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Thanks for all the tips, I guess RCA is going to be my best bet since the 7pin might not be useful.
I do have a RCA > 1/4 adapter that plugs in to my line in jack. So, my question now is I can just accept the signal as is? I would have to use headphones to monitor and ask politely to adjust if possible? I dont have a 1/8 stereo mini, will I be ok with just RCA > 1/4?
Thanks for all the helpful advice guys.
If you are going to be coming out of the board, be prepared to deal with XLR jacks. You can get any variation of cables from someone here on the board, such as L & R XLR> 1/8 stereo mini, and then, if you need to, you can get attenuators. Monitoring is not the issue, if the signal is too hot, nothing is going to help the situation, except attenuating it. Your meters should make that pretty clear. If you are planning on doing this more than once, I would just get the cables you need, so that you can handle as many likely configurations as possible, including RCA, 1/4" and XLR.
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A simple 10k pot for most applications would work fine. A fixed pad will work too but you might end up cutting more level then you need too and increasing your signal to noise ratio in the process. So I think an interface with a VU meter and a volume pot would be in order so the user could see the incoming level before his or her recording device and pad it down accordingly maybe have a pre pot and post pot switch for the VU as well so they can see the difference?? what do you guys think?
Chris, This could be a useful idea, if it could be done, and kept small, and powered by a single battery. If it could be a 10-30 db range, all the better. How about building a real outboard digital meter, a la the SVU, but designed for the digital realm, with something like the Tascam meters, with a peak level readout? I will pre-order immediately.
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Thanks for all the tips, I guess RCA is going to be my best bet since the 7pin might not be useful.
I do have a RCA > 1/4 adapter that plugs in to my line in jack. So, my question now is I can just accept the signal as is? I would have to use headphones to monitor and ask politely to adjust if possible? I dont have a 1/8 stereo mini, will I be ok with just RCA > 1/4?
Thanks for all the helpful advice guys.
If you are going to be coming out of the board, be prepared to deal with XLR jacks. You can get any variation of cables from someone here on the board, such as L & R XLR> 1/8 stereo mini, and then, if you need to, you can get attenuators. Monitoring is not the issue, if the signal is too hot, nothing is going to help the situation, except attenuating it. Your meters should make that pretty clear. If you are planning on doing this more than once, I would just get the cables you need, so that you can handle as many likely configurations as possible, including RCA, 1/4" and XLR.
I am thinking of building a transformer based input with xlr 1/4 and rca inputs and a stereo 1/4 output that can be adapted on the other end. I am thinking maybe I don't need a transformer as most of you guys are using battery power. I am still thinking about this I think I can build this for about $200 for a 12 step stereo vu + level control + headphone amp. for monitoring. I can get it to operate on a set of 9 volts.
I am still thinking any input would be appreciated.
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I am thinking of building a transformer based input with xlr 1/4 and rca inputs and a stereo 1/4 output that can be adapted on the other end. I am thinking maybe I don't need a transformer as most of you guys are using battery power. I am still thinking about this I think I can build this for about $200 for a 12 step stereo vu + level control + headphone amp. for monitoring. I can get it to operate on a set of 9 volts.
I am still thinking any input would be appreciated.
Pun intended? On the serious side, keep it simple, and small. I would go with just XLR in and out, as most people here work with those, and have the necessary adapters to deal with RCA and 1/4" if they need to. I would also jettison the headphone amp. as well, as people can listen upline. In this arena (pun intended) small, lightweight, and low power requirements rule. Just my meager thoughts.
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I am thinking of building a transformer based input with xlr 1/4 and rca inputs and a stereo 1/4 output that can be adapted on the other end. I am thinking maybe I don't need a transformer as most of you guys are using battery power. I am still thinking about this I think I can build this for about $200 for a 12 step stereo vu + level control + headphone amp. for monitoring. I can get it to operate on a set of 9 volts.
I am still thinking any input would be appreciated.
Pun intended? On the serious side, keep it simple, and small. I would go with just XLR in and out, as most people here work with those, and have the necessary adapters to deal with RCA and 1/4" if they need to. I would also jettison the headphone amp. as well, as people can listen upline. In this arena (pun intended) small, lightweight, and low power requirements rule. Just my meager thoughts.
OK I can do that. I was thinking the headphone amp would be a good thing but to be honest its kind of a waste of time. I think I will make it with xlr connectors and 1/4 I can use a Neutrik combi plug for that application and take up the same amount of space.
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OK I can do that. I was thinking the headphone amp would be a good thing but to be honest its kind of a waste of time. I think I will make it with xlr connectors and 1/4 I can use a Neutrik combi plug for that application and take up the same amount of space.
That is sounding like a good plan. How small do you think it would be, and what range of attenuation were you planning on providing?
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OK I can do that. I was thinking the headphone amp would be a good thing but to be honest its kind of a waste of time. I think I will make it with xlr connectors and 1/4 I can use a Neutrik combi plug for that application and take up the same amount of space.
That is sounding like a good plan. How small do you think it would be, and what range of attenuation were you planning on providing?
The range of attenuation will be from -00 or all the way off to Unity gain. I will put the Vu with a pre post switch so you can see exactly how much your attenuating. The box will be about 5x4x2