Topic: Soundboard Patches and Attenuation

[PH]

Someone loves to argue silly symantics don't they......

I said, POST all effects, faders, eq, compression, etc....
What the LR or mains are outputting. I even said it twice!
You can send that LR signal to any output the engineer has open and is willing to give you.
 
Which output or what one board or engineer may call it or send it to, the point is to get
the feed you are looking for. POST everything.

That's the reason it's better to just go after the mains unless you have a very friendly FOH engineer willing to set up a seperate feed for you. Chances are not good that will happen even half the time.

It's not rocket science here. I wasn't saying matrix, aux,  or subs are the same thing, that's just twisting words for arguments's sake.
The point I was making was you should always go after the feed you are actually listening to in the room live.


(edit: nevermind....)

[Church-Audio]

Same difference...... you are looking for the main outs post effects. I would actually prefer to have exactly what the LR is outputting to the mains. Being post fader, the signal output is almost always more uniform and balanced and makes for better 2 track recording.

Whether you use matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......you want to be post all effects and all faders for a 2 track recording. Some would argue that point about effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording, but I've found that unless the compression is ridiculous, it's going to sound much better than a dry pre mixed signal any day.



Not the same at all. There is a big difference between an aux out, a subgroup out, a matrix out, a B mix out, and the mains out. Yes, the simple answer for recording is to take the mains out, but most of the time the main outs are already spoken for...for what they are intended...the mains. An aux out, even a stereo mix, isn't going to yield you the best results since, even if the engineer sets every channel to unity on the aux send of each channel, you still aren't going to get the effects returns on your tape, unless, of course, the engineer brings all his effects back in channels and remembers to send the effects out on the tape aux feed. Subgroup outputs aren't going to do you much good for a recording, since, generally speaking, they are used for grouping instruments, vocals, etc, and, again, you aren't going to get effects. Plus, most small format consoles don't even have subgroup outputs (none on the Midas Venice, the small format console flavor of the month). The B mix output is a safe bet to get a decent tape, but the B mix usually follows the main L and R faders...which is OK, but any changes made to the mains (L & R) will effect your recording. My solution is this......I set up a stereo matrix mix of all my subgroup or VCA outputs, plus all my effects returns, and record from that. That way, if I add 3 or 4db at the end of a song to the live mix, it doesn't effect the recording. Of course, this can only be done with a board with a true matrix section (aka a PM3/4/5K, XL, etc...), and with an engineer who is willing to work with you to figure out what you want on the tape.

I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to when you mention "effects, compression, eq, and such, and how it might adversly affect the recording", but any channel eq change is going to effect a board recording on any output from the board. The main EQ isn't going to affect your tape at all since you are getting a signal before the signal even hits the EQ.

Just to let you know there is no such thing as a VCA output. They don't exist on any console because vca's are not used to subgroup in the true sense of the word they control subgroups or what ever is assigned to them but they work on a dc voltage of 0 to 10volts then they re rough the audio back to the input or output in question. I don't use subgroups on a console I prefer like most sound engineers to assign everything to left and right. The only time I will use subgroups is on small shows where there is not enough compressors for vocals. But more often then not I will use the VCA'S if its a good console like a pm4000 or a XL4 or Heritage 3000. But never on a cheap console. And as for asking me for a discrete mix. That's not likely going to happen as a front of house engineer all of your time is spent getting the mix together.


I think you are better off not asking for so much and just getting a matrix out or control room out, but don't ask for a mix they way you want it because we simply don't have time to "babysit it" You would be better off getting something that is a derivative of left and right. If the mix is not that good IE vocals were not on top then the front of house engineer sucked anyway. Even your mics will not sound much better. If he is a good sound engineer your mix from the console for the most part will be spot on. There are always exceptions to this rule but generally they apply to amplified instruments coming off the stage. Like Guitar amps that are too loud or bass amps in a small theater or small club they might be down in the board mix but your room mics will compensate for that.

I just want people to know that when your doing front of house sound its a challenge to begin with you have a room you have never been too and a system you might be unfamiliar with. Its all you can do to just make it sound good. Its a very hard job, the best thing to do for a sound engineer is respect the fact that you might not always get what you want but some time you just might find you get what you need ( sorry I had to use that )

Also when you get a matrix out from the console if there is a eq inserted on the left and right you might get that going to tape because on some consoles the effects send and matrix input are POST FADER from left and right Not pre fader.

Just my two cents.

Chris Church

[rokpunk]

That's the reason it's better to just go after the mains unless you have a very friendly FOH engineer willing to set up a seperate feed for you. Chances are not good that will happen even half the time.

Well, I say good luck taking the main output from a console for your recording.....
If you ask me for my main outs so that you can make a recording, my response will be something like this "yeah, sure, I'd give you the main L & R out......if it wasn't being used to send the signal to the mains. would you like me to set up a matrix mix for you?"

I fully understand what you are trying to do....get everything post eq/fader/comp, but what I am saying is there are many more ways to get that than from the main L&R outputs....there are even better ways to get that than the main L&R outs. I don't want my recording affected by fader moves made on the L&R outs, that's why I set up a matrix for my record feed when possible, using the signal derived from my subgroups.

[rokpunk]

Just to let you know there is no such thing as a VCA output. They don't exist on any console because vca's are not used to subgroup in the true sense of the word they control subgroups or what ever is assigned to them but they work on a dc voltage of 0 to 10volts then they re rough the audio back to the input or output in question. I don't use subgroups on a console I prefer like most sound engineers to assign everything to left and right. The only time I will use subgroups is on small shows where there is not enough compressors for vocals. But more often then not I will use the VCA'S if its a good console like a pm4000 or a XL4 or Heritage 3000. But never on a cheap console. And as for asking me for a discrete mix. That's not likely going to happen as a front of house engineer all of your time is spent getting the mix together.

I'm not suggesting taking a physical output from a VCA, since, like you said, there is no such thing. What I was suggesting was routing your VCA's to the matrix section and setting up a recording from there. As for subgroups, I tend to use them on big consoles, but on smaller boards, I'll just route everything to L&R. It doesn't matter if you use subgroups or not.....the signal eventually gets to the L&R outs no matter how you decide to route it. If you do use the subgroups and set them up with, say, drums in 1&2, horns/toys in 3&4, bass/guitar in 5&6, and vocals in 7&8, then you can route the subgroups to the matrix section. Fader moves on the subgroups will affect the tape feed, but fader moves on the L&R main outs won't. That was my point.

Also when you get a matrix out from the console if there is a eq inserted on the left and right you might get that going to tape because on some consoles the effects send and matrix input are POST FADER from left and right Not pre fader.

Matrix INPUTS? Never heard of such a thing on a console. Matrix inserts, maybe, but matrix INPUTS? Not that I am telling you anything that you don't know, but a matrix is simply a way to route a signal to various outputs....such as a record feed, a press feed, a delay feed, etc..
And as far as EQ inserted on the L&R, that EQ will NOT affect your recording if you set up a matrix of your subgroups, since the signal never hits the L&R before it gets to your feed.

I fully understand what Phil is trying to accomplish....but there are many ways to get there...not just the main outs. You just need to know what to ask for. Oh, and as far as the engineer being too busy to set that up for you, I say that's weak sauce. It takes about 10 seconds to turn up the knobs to make this happen. I do it day in and day out for corporate events when the client, at the last minute, says..."this guy is with out Multimedia Department and needs an output for his video camera". It takes longer to walk to the backside of the console to physically plug in his cables than it does to dial in the matrix mix for his send.

I'm not trying to argue here...I'm just saying there are many ways to accomplish a decent recording of the board, and, while asking for the main outs might be the easiest, it's not necessarily the best.

[Church-Audio]

Just to let you know there is no such thing as a VCA output. They don't exist on any console because vca's are not used to subgroup in the true sense of the word they control subgroups or what ever is assigned to them but they work on a dc voltage of 0 to 10volts then they re rough the audio back to the input or output in question. I don't use subgroups on a console I prefer like most sound engineers to assign everything to left and right. The only time I will use subgroups is on small shows where there is not enough compressors for vocals. But more often then not I will use the VCA'S if its a good console like a pm4000 or a XL4 or Heritage 3000. But never on a cheap console. And as for asking me for a discrete mix. That's not likely going to happen as a front of house engineer all of your time is spent getting the mix together.

I'm not suggesting taking a physical output from a VCA, since, like you said, there is no such thing. What I was suggesting was routing your VCA's to the matrix section and setting up a recording from there. As for subgroups, I tend to use them on big consoles, but on smaller boards, I'll just route everything to L&R. It doesn't matter if you use subgroups or not.....the signal eventually gets to the L&R outs no matter how you decide to route it. If you do use the subgroups and set them up with, say, drums in 1&2, horns/toys in 3&4, bass/guitar in 5&6, and vocals in 7&8, then you can route the subgroups to the matrix section. Fader moves on the subgroups will affect the tape feed, but fader moves on the L&R main outs won't. That was my point.

Also when you get a matrix out from the console if there is a eq inserted on the left and right you might get that going to tape because on some consoles the effects send and matrix input are POST FADER from left and right Not pre fader.

Matrix INPUTS? Never heard of such a thing on a console. Matrix inserts, maybe, but matrix INPUTS? Not that I am telling you anything that you don't know, but a matrix is simply a way to route a signal to various outputs....such as a record feed, a press feed, a delay feed, etc..
And as far as EQ inserted on the L&R, that EQ will NOT affect your recording if you set up a matrix of your subgroups, since the signal never hits the L&R before it gets to your feed.

I fully understand what Phil is trying to accomplish....but there are many ways to get there...not just the main outs. You just need to know what to ask for. Oh, and as far as the engineer being too busy to set that up for you, I say that's weak sauce. It takes about 10 seconds to turn up the knobs to make this happen. I do it day in and day out for corporate events when the client, at the last minute, says..."this guy is with out Multimedia Department and needs an output for his video camera". It takes longer to walk to the backside of the console to physically plug in his cables than it does to dial in the matrix mix for his send.

I'm not trying to argue here...I'm just saying there are many ways to accomplish a decent recording of the board, and, while asking for the main outs might be the easiest, it's not necessarily the best.

Once again there is no such thing as being able to rought a VCA to a matrix VCA'S don't work like that, Maybe you should read a few manuals for some consoles before you start talking to people like they don't know what they are talking about?............

Actually there are matrix inputs on many consoles ( again reading a few manuals might help you here ) the input consist of AUX INPUT LEFT AND RIGHT INPUTS AND SUBGROUP INPUTS. all have there own faders all can be added or subtracted from the matrix itself...........


Actually your point is moot when it comes to subgroups and matrix feeds since 90% of the live sound engineers out there that mix real bands DONT USE SUBGROUPS! why because we prefer to go straight into left and right thus bypassing an unnecessary gain stage. THATS WHY WE HAVE VCA'S so we don't need subgroups * again reading a manual here and there might help you understand this*

Actually setting up a discrete mix takes more then 10 seconds to set it up you actually have to watch the levels that are going to that mix so that it actually sounds like something. In a real show not a small corporate show you get a left and right feed from the matrix and that's it. The idea that you can tell the FOH guy to do a "special" mix for you is insane.

Maybe some might but most will not. My whole point is this be nice to the FOH guy and he will be nice to you. Be a jerk and ask for a bunch of shit and he will treat you like a knob, The whole point of you not taking his left and right feed is an insult to most FOH guys because they feel that that mix will be good. After all its what they are getting paid for.........

I think its easy to dole out information. I have been doing sound for 20+ years I have worked with many bands. Most of them major recording acts, Here in Canada and the USA. When it comes to sound man edicate I know what the hell I am talking about. I would never in a million years assume that the sound man in question would be using subgroups and to assume that you can just ask for what ever mix you want LOL. where have you been doing sound?

I did a show where there was NBC, ABC, CBS, CSPAN, CNN, and some other smaller affiliates. I gave them all a matrix from my left and right and called it a day! NOT one of them said can I get a mix of your subgroups.




Chris Church

[rokpunk]

You are right, Chris. I know nothing about what I am talking about, and I haven't been doing live sound in both concert and coroprate settings for nearly 20 years, and I don't own a regional sound company, nor a nearly $100K Meyer PA system, as well as several B systems. Never worked with major nationals, and have never mixed a live event going out over a major network. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to audio. Infact, I have never even been behind a console before. We all know that you are the true authority when it comes to live sound mixing. I bow down before thee, all knowing one.

[Church-Audio]

You are right, Chris. I know nothing about what I am talking about, and I haven't been doing live sound in both concert and coroprate settings for nearly 20 years, and I don't own a regional sound company, nor a nearly $100K Meyer PA system, as well as several B systems. Never worked with major nationals, and have never mixed a live event going out over a major network. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to audio. Infact, I have never even been behind a console before. We all know that you are the true authority when it comes to live sound mixing. I bow down before thee, all knowing one.

Dude a 100k Meyer rig would buy you a few monitors and a few MSL3'S and some 650's If you want to compare dollar value I think you would lose. I have worked for companies that have Millions in inventory not $1000's I have worked for companies Like Clair Brothers, BCB, Solotech. The list goes on. I can show you my resume if you would like to get into a pissing contest. I just think you were handing out incorrect information and I corrected you. Plain and simple. I can see you don't like to be corrected but I think there is a real danger when handing out incorrect information. So thank you for bowing down to me. I don't need your bows. I am sorry you got offended.

You know when someone points out my mistakes, I don't get angry I get smarter That's how people in this industry learn from one another. I admit I should have not said read the manual that was rude, but you were pretty mean to that other poster. And I thought you could use a little tune up.

I have had more then my fair share of tune ups here when I was wrong

Please except my apology and lets move on.....

Chris Church

[rokpunk]

You are right, Chris. I know nothing about what I am talking about, and I haven't been doing live sound in both concert and coroprate settings for nearly 20 years, and I don't own a regional sound company, nor a nearly $100K Meyer PA system, as well as several B systems. Never worked with major nationals, and have never mixed a live event going out over a major network. I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to audio. Infact, I have never even been behind a console before. We all know that you are the true authority when it comes to live sound mixing. I bow down before thee, all knowing one.

Dude a 100k Meyer rig would buy you a few monitors and a few MSL3'S and some 650's If you want to compare dollar value I think you would lose. I have worked for companies that have Millions in inventory not $1000's I have worked for companies Like Clair Brothers, BCB, Solotech.

A slew of UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, a couple of Midas', an old PM3k....then double it for the big events with another local sound co. It's easy enough to call down the street to Maryland Sound to subrent an XL4, or a PM5D...makes no sense for me to keep a $150K board or a half million dollar line array in my inventory.
It's nice to work for companies like Clair....but I'd personally rather own the company, the truck, and the rig and work for myself. I've been the freelance engineer...working on the road for various companies, and trust me, although not as glamourous as mixing monitors behind a big board in a big arena, owning the company and having people work for you is far more rewarding, in my opinion.
To each his own.

I certainly accept an apology from you, although it's not really needed since, at least in my opinion, this is a discussion, not an argument.

As far as "handing out incorrect information", all I was saying is that there is more than one way to accomplish a tape mix...and that the main L&R output might not always be the *best*, like he claimed. A "matrix, subs, aux, or whatever the board or engineer calls it......", as the poster claimed, is clearly not the same thing, and a feed out of an aux send or out of a sub(group) is not always going to get you a post fx, eq, fader 2 track mix. In fact, it hardly ever will. I fully understand what he is trying to accomplish here, and all I am saying is there is more than one way to get there, and the "main outs" are usually not even going to be an option for a recording since they usually fed the main EQ/processor, and not a tapirs two track recorder. At least, in my experience.

[120db]

Wow , lots of good reading here. I just joined this site to read up on this topic.
Please pardon the newbie question, but Anyone know what cable(s) I will need to record a SBD feed from a
Allen & Heath GL2400-24 into my Digital 7 pin cable plugged into Sony D8?

Or What would be the best method in general using a Sony D8?

Thanks for any tips, and Ive got a lot more to read...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/

[Church-Audio]

Wow , lots of good reading here. I just joined this site to read up on this topic.
Please pardon the newbie question, but Anyone know what cable(s) I will need to record a SBD feed from a
Allen & Heath GL2400-24 into my Digital 7 pin cable plugged into Sony D8?

Or What would be the best method in general using a Sony D8?

Thanks for any tips, and Ive got a lot more to read...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/

The gl series has control room outs on it or tape outputs that would be the best method IMO if your using the tape outs they are RCA if your using the control room outs they are 1/4 inch.

[rokpunk]

Wow , lots of good reading here. I just joined this site to read up on this topic.
Please pardon the newbie question, but Anyone know what cable(s) I will need to record a SBD feed from a
Allen & Heath GL2400-24 into my Digital 7 pin cable plugged into Sony D8?

Or What would be the best method in general using a Sony D8?

Thanks for any tips, and Ive got a lot more to read...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GL2400-24/

The gl series has control room outs on it or tape outputs that would be the best method IMO if your using the tape outs they are RCA if your using the control room outs they are 1/4 inch.

The GL2400 also has a 7x4 matrix section that you could build a mix on. The matrix outputs are 1/4".
Like with most things audio, there is no *best* way. The RCA outs from the tape out might be the easiest way to go, though.

[Roving Sign]

I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....

But 

I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...

I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...

[rokpunk]

I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....

But 

I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...

I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...

good point.....run the board output to the input of a SBM1, then come out of it with your 7 pin SPDIF cable.
or run analog into the D8.

[Church-Audio]

I dont know anything about mixing in stereo, VCA, subgroups, UM100P's, 10 650P's, 10 MSL4's, 8 UPA1P's, or the Allen & Heath GL2400-24....

But 

I do know that the Sony D8 7 pin cable is digital interface - and useless unless said console has a built in A/D section with a SPDIF output - you'll need to find another cable...

I'd bring a 1/8 stereo mini > L/R RCA cable...and some RCA > 1/4 adapters...

Ok trick question I get it I know the 7 pin cable is digital. I stand corrected...

Chris Church

[travelinbeat]

just to interrupt for a moment-- I don't understand much about any of this world of recording directly from a soundboard, however I am going to be recording a couple of shows coming up very soon, at least one of which I will be recording via-soundboard.  I have read this discussion thouroughly enough to have learned that I may need "attenuators" to keep my unit from melting(?) blowing up(?) otherwise dying(?).  I have all of the adaptors and cables I need in order to hook myself up to RCA / XLR / 1/8" / 1/4" outputs from a sounboard, but I have no attenuators.  I understand that I won't need them for a signal coming via-RCA, and that I may well need them for a signal coming from XLR.  My questions are basically as follows:
1- Do I need attenuators (my recorder is a iRiver H120)
2- Where do I buy them
3- How do I use them (how do I know how far down to turn the signal?  Is an attenuator just turning down the volume or the electricity-- or are those the same?)
4- Basically anything else a new-to-sbd should know!

thanks as always guys!