Topic: Possible Multi-cam recording project

[NslMatt]

Hey everyone... I am hopefully going to attempt a multi-cam Mini-DV recording of a friend's set at a coffeehouse so we can distribute it to fans or possibly let him sell as a release. We are also either going to do a soundboard recording or an audience recording to use as the audio. We will be using iMovie for the video editing, and we will be using Soundforge 7.0 for the audio recording. Anyway, I had a few questions about video recording before we get into this venture.

1) Do I need to record to DV tapes or can we plug into a laptop and record straight from there without having to use tapes?
2) Is there a way on iMovie to edit out the audio that the DV cams capture? or is there a way to turn the audio off on the cams?
3) How long do DV tapes last?
4) Can we synch audio with video in iMovie?
5) Are there any other programs we might need? Most likely this will be a 2-3 man crew.

If there are any tips or any other pieces of equipment we might need, feel free to post it. We are going to get permission from the coffeeshop this is taking place so that we can hopefully do the soundboard recording and the video recording, so it won't be stealthed. I'd appreciate any help on this. Thanks everyone.

[firmdragon]

1.) i do believe you can w/ premiere.  i think you can just plug it in via firewire and capture,  just play around w/ it.  dunno about iMovie.

3.) 60 min on SP mode/ 90 min on LP mode.

[NslMatt]

Well, we are now thinking about adding a 3rd cam to the mix... and I have at least 1 or 2 people fluent in either Adobe Premier or iMovie... so that is all good. Any other tips anyone?

[NslMatt]

Anyone know if Digital8 cameras are as good of quality as Mini-DV? Just curious. Thanks

[sabre]

Generally, the optics in miniDV videocameras are better than the optics in a Digital8 cam. What miniDV and Digital8 cameras do you intend to use in your shoot?

[NslMatt]

Not really sure. We are using a cam the artist is getting from his friend (MiniDV). I am working on trying to win an auction on ebay to get a Mini-DV... so I think we'd prefer Mini-DV over anything.

[BayTaynt3d]

Anyone know if Digital8 cameras are as good of quality as Mini-DV? Just curious. Thanks

Digi8 shoots same format as Mini-Dv... In US, 720x480 NTSC at 29.97 fps using DV Codec. So, it's really more about the camera than the format between these two choices. Chances are the MiniDV cam is better, newer, etc. But, there were some decent digi8 cams made at one point. People mostly bought then because they were backward-compatiple with their older analog Hi8 tapes.

[BayTaynt3d]

1) Do I need to record to DV tapes or can we plug into a laptop and record straight from there without having to use tapes?
2) Is there a way on iMovie to edit out the audio that the DV cams capture? or is there a way to turn the audio off on the cams?
3) How long do DV tapes last?
4) Can we synch audio with video in iMovie?
5) Are there any other programs we might need? Most likely this will be a 2-3 man crew.

Thoughts:

- if you get the SBD, make sure to get AUD too or you'll regret it.

- You can usually record straight to lappy if the cam can do passthrough through the firewire cable. Might I suggest that even if you do capture that way, that you still capture to tape simultaneously -- that can be a real lifesaver sometimes. Me personally, I'd just record to tape, and deal with capture in post.

- Someone mentioned that tapes go 60 and 90 minutes. That's true, but a couple of others things are worth noting. For starters, there are actually 80m SP tapes out there (usually have to buy online, you don't see them in the wild too often). This can be exploited in LP mode to get a full 120 minutes on a single tape. However, you should note that although LP mode captures the exact same quality as SP mode, you can have cross-cam/deck compatibility problems with LP tapes. Also, over time, the cam that actually shot the SP video in the first place might even have tracking problems with an LP tape. So, this is just a trade off: longer record time, shorter shelf-life and possible compatibility problems. Usually this won't matter if you capture your tape and never use the tape again, so just something to think about. If I were filming with multiple cams, I'd get 80 min tapes and shoot in SP mode, making sure that the cams don't all require the "flip" at the same time.

- Not sure about syncing in iMovie, but definately in Premiere. Also, if you know you are recording audio for intregrating with MiniDV later, I'd record in 16/48 (not 16/44), as this is the format used in DV, and it'll help you keep sync for longer periods of time, and you can always drop it to 16/44 in post if you want to make CDs. Otherwise, if you record in 16/44, make sure to first thing upsample to 16/48 BEFORE you try to sync it in your NLE (video editor).

- Also, if possible, I'd get all the cams together, start them going at the same time, and then do a "clap" with your hands with all of them together. Make sure you are getting audio, any audio, into the cams cause without it syncing to your DAT will be impossible (you use the cam's audio to get in sync, then you get rid of it, or just mute it in the NLE). After that, KEEP ROLLING on all cams no matter what -- DO NOT stop and start any of the cams until you have to (the "flip"). This will make it way easier in post when syncing (at least for the first tape). You can just lay down the complete high quality audio track, lay down the complete a/v track from cam #1, and lay down the second cam's complete a/v track all on the timeline. Then get them all synced at the start with the hand clap. Then check at the end if they are in sync still. If not, do fine adjust at the end of the timeline by "stretching/compressing" the tracks that aren't in sync. Once, everything is all synced up, you can mute the cam audio tracks and start editing cuts between cam #1 and cam #2 by "cutting away" the cam you do/don't want to use in the timeline. It can also be helpful to lock one cam down on a tripod with a wide angle view of the whole band/scene, then let the other cam move around a lot, get super closeups, shots of the audience, etc. Then in post, you can use the wide locked-down shot as your "Master Scene", the thing you can always go back to, you can always count on that shot being usable, whether cam #2 was getting good stuff or not. Then you can cut from that tried and true cam #1 shot back to the wandering cam #2 shot whether cam two was getting some good stuff. There are other ways, but the point is to MAKE ABSOLUTE SURE that at any one point in time that at least one of the cameras is getting a good shot... Otherwise you'll be fucked. If cam #1 is getting shaky cam footage and moving, and cam #2 is also getting shakycam and zooming in or something like that at the same time, then when you're editing, you'll be choosing from two crappy shakycam shots. So work out some sort of signaling system, so that cam #1 stays put while cam #2 is moving around, and then vise versa -- the videographers MUST BE conscious of each other in that regard.

Hope those tips help...

[NslMatt]

Wow. That's a lot of info... I appreciate it. So far we have 1 cam and are working on getting more cams. The artist we are going to tape says iMovie does do synching and that should be fine. Just curious as to why I should also record audience as well as soundboard? I am still fairly new to it. The only problem I might have with that is, I am probably the only one going to be recording audio and I only use my laptop, I don't use a formal rig. So if we are using the USB mixer to record soundboard, can I record audience as well with my mic plugged into my mic port? I appreciate all that help!

[BayTaynt3d]

Wow. That's a lot of info... I appreciate it. So far we have 1 cam and are working on getting more cams. The artist we are going to tape says iMovie does do synching and that should be fine. Just curious as to why I should also record audience as well as soundboard? I am still fairly new to it. The only problem I might have with that is, I am probably the only one going to be recording audio and I only use my laptop, I don't use a formal rig. So if we are using the USB mixer to record soundboard, can I record audience as well with my mic plugged into my mic port? I appreciate all that help!

Usually the SBD is mixed to make the ROOM sound good, not to make a line-out recording sound good.

[NslMatt]

Ah, ok... so I should probably like mix the audio together in a matrix? What program should I use to do that?

[BayTaynt3d]

Ah, ok... so I should probably like mix the audio together in a matrix? What program should I use to do that?

Just do it in Premiere if that is what you are using. Just add another audio track, sync it, and you're in business. You potentially could end up with 4 audio tracks and two video tracks: (a1) audio from SBD, (a2) Audio from AUD tape, (a3) throw-away audio from cam #1 (useful for syncing), (a4) throw away audio from cam #2 (useful for syncing); Then video from both cams. Premeire can handle all of that no problem. I may be possible to use the "throw away" audio from one of the cams as the mix in for the matrix instead of pulling a seperate AUD. But built-in mics on cams usually SUCK BALLS, and they are also likely to brick-wall bigtime, and most consumer cams are mic-in, so you've got the shitty preamp in the cam to deal with too. Some prosumer cams take XLR line-in, which is much better, and in that case you could set up an AUD rig into a pre then go XLR line-in to the locked down tripod wide angle cam, and that might be good enough for your AUD to use in your matrix. Just some ideas, don't take all of this as must-do, just sharing some thoughts -- use some of these ideas or not, and just make the best a/v recording you can with the gear you can come up with.

[NslMatt]

Thanks for all the info. I am going to use Soundforge 7.0 to record the audio for the show, we were going to throw the audio away from the cams. The only thing I need to know really now is, is it possible to record 2 inputs at once? Because we'll have the USB mixer plugged into my computer, and if I do an AUD recording as well, I might have to use my computer... is this possible?

[guitard]

I do a lot of multi-cam productions.  By the sound of things, so does Tainted - because his suggestions are spot on. 

Regarding the cam audio... even though I often have a nice soundboard to work with, I still like to mix some cam audio into the mix.  The productions I'm involved in are small time - usually just one guy working three or four cams - sometimes two guys.  So he can't work audio at the same time - too many skillets on the stove as it is.  But I've found that by checking all of the cam audio sources (you've got to drop them on the timeline anyway to synch things up - so they are right there for your listening pleasure), and choosing the best one, and knocking it down several decibels - it can add a lot of warmth to the overall sound.  On top of what Tainted said about soundboard audio - another thing I've found is that a lot of small venues (and it sounds like that's where you'll be) have some less than stellar soundmen - so don't count on the soundboard audio being really special.  You can always connect a nice mic to the cam's input - it can make a big difference, and be just the added punch to the overall audio really sounding nice.

Don't think you have to have a one person per camera.  I regularly have more than one running.  The static stage shot (that Tainted mentioned) doens't need anyone operating it.  Get another cam and a tripod and position off to the side of the stage.  You can get some beautiful shots from the side of the stage, but you can't have one of your mobile camera guys stumbling around by the side of the stage though - usually there isn't enough room.  It's best to have it on the left side of the stage (as you view it from the audience) because most guitarists are right handed players - and that will usually get you a better shot than from the other side of the stage.

What good mics are to audio recording - good lighting is to videotaping.  It's absolutely critical.  Check the place out ahead of time if possible, and work with the people at the venue to see if you can make a few adjustments if necessary.

Mini-DV cams come in all flavors.  There are nice one chip models (the Sony HC-21 comes to mind), but If you can get one of the three chip models (like a Panasonic GS-120), you can really shoot some nice video.  Whatever the case, have your best camera doing the main angle - the one you'll be shooting.  Unless you really can't help it - have all cams on a tripod.  Even the mobile ones.  Just pick up and move quickly and start filming again.  You'll be covered by the other static angles - so you don't need to worry about missing a shot.  Handheld video has its place in a production - but you want to use it sparingly for the most part.

If you don't know the band you're filming - get familiar with their music ahead of time so you know when to be pre-positioned to nail the guitar solos, etc.  It sucks when you miss the first part of a cool solo.

That's all I can think of for now.

Good luck.

[NslMatt]

Wow! Thanks for all that info. Luckily there isn't a whole lot to videotape since it is a solo acoustic artist we are recording. It sounds like we are going to have 2 cams, soundboard audio, and probably an audience mic recording as well. I think we should be able to work it out. I appreciate all the help from everyone and when it is finally finished I'll let everyone know how it went. Thanks!