Topic: Mic for live String Quartet

[Filharmoniker]

Hello, I have some questions concerning live recordings of a classical string Quartet( 2 violins, alto, cello). So: this is quiet and accoustic music where I think clear sound without deformation (pitch etc.) is important. Now I have an old MD recorder: MZ-R30 who still works well. I use to record with a stereo micro: Sony ECM MS907. Before it was really great, compared to his price (130EUR-156USD). After 7 years, I got my doubts... Even if I use it only a few times a year (except in the beginning) can it be used allready? I read about a guy who makes stereo mics himself for about 50EUR!! Can someone make a good mic for that price?
http://www.geocities.com/greenmachine_audio/de-mic.html
I dont care about how they look like but I  have the impression they are made for bootlegs. And that are vere big concerts (open air and loud music, amplified). Unfortunately I dont manage to download his samples...
Does anyone know a good alternative for max 130EUR , deliverable in Belgium?

[guysonic]

Your budget may limit your options to far less satisfactory mics.   

With sufficient budget, consider the accurate acoustic recording mics used to produce "Hayden Cello #5 " and "Classical/Jazz/Acoustic Sampler" samples recorded by Jim Dukey found in the 'Sessions' section on page www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm

[divamum]

Hi -

I'm an opera singer and thus record acoustic all the time - I've been very happy with Sound Professionals CMC8s but those are above your budget (about US$250).  Not so sure about EUropean choices; I've used Sound Professsionals here in the US (he does ship to Europe, but usually European customs slaps on VAT when it lands which of course bumps up the cost )

All I can say is that until you try another mic, you won't realise how bad the 907 is.  I couldn't BELIEVE the difference when I upgraded 18 months ago.   Hopefully somebody can recommend a European vendor for you; if not, you may want to contact Chris at Sound Pros and see if you can find something in his lineup of mics.   

If you want to hear some operatic samples recorded with the CMC8s, shoot me a pm - happy to let you hear them.

[John Willett]

For string quartet I would normally use an MS pair or ORTF pair of mics costing around £2,500 the pair.

Most decent stereo mics are in the same price bracket.

Of the cheapos, the Røde NT4 seems the best value for money at a little over £200 and Beyerdynamic also do a little stereo mic. at a similar price.

I have yet to hear anything useable at less than this.

[pschneider]

Hello, I have some questions concerning live recordings of a classical string Quartet( 2 violins, alto, cello). So: this is quiet and accoustic music where I think clear sound without deformation (pitch etc.) is important. Now I have an old MD recorder: MZ-R30 who still works well. I use to record with a stereo micro: Sony ECM MS907. Before it was really great, compared to his price (130EUR-156USD). After 7 years, I got my doubts... Even if I use it only a few times a year (except in the beginning) can it be used allready? I read about a guy who makes stereo mics himself for about 50EUR!! Can someone make a good mic for that price?
http://www.geocities.com/greenmachine_audio/de-mic.html
I dont care about how they look like but I  have the impression they are made for bootlegs. And that are vere big concerts (open air and loud music, amplified). Unfortunately I dont manage to download his samples...
Does anyone know a good alternative for max 130EUR , deliverable in Belgium?

I recently got two pairs of Naiant MSH-10 omnis. You can do worse for $44 a pair - http://www.naiant.com . I've so far used them as outriggers and spot mics (oboe, timpani) in an orchestral recording. They have an incredible price/usefulness ratio! I think naiant now also make mics which can be directly hooked up to minidisc recorders. However, if you want to record classical acoustic music, I strongly recommend using a preamp and phantom powered mics to get less noise.

If the performance takes place in a good sounding hall or church, you can try a spaced pair of omnis. For starters, I would suggest placing the mics about 60cm apart, about 3m from the performers. Of course it is a matter of taste, but for small ensembles this can create a very nice sense of space which tends to be missing in coincident mic setups (like the mid-side setup with your Sony ECM).

Have you thought about hiring equipment for the recording? Many studios will rent out mics, preamps and cables for reasonable rates, and may even give you a bit of advice if you ask nicely This is a good way to compare recording quality without spending a lot of money to buy equipment. If you constrain yourself by an extremely tight budget, you run the risk of leaning too much toward what you can afford rather than that which sounds best for your application. When you found a good setup, you can always ask again if there is affordable equipment which could match the performance of the hired stuff as closely as possible.

Peter

[Filharmoniker]

First of all: thanks to all of you: I didn't expected so much response!. Most of the alternatives I read here are far bove my budget. in fact I only do 1 or 2 recordings  a year (like 20min per recording...), I'm an amateur composer, not a performer (composing works much slower than performing I realised 
pschneider, I'm interested in these Naiant MSH-1M since I think for this one you don't need phantom power.

pschneider

I recently got two pairs of Naiant MSH-10 omnis. You can do worse for $44 a pair  - http://www.naiant.com . I've so far used them as outriggers and spot mics (oboe, timpani) in an orchestral recording. They have an incredible price/usefulness ratio! I think naiant now also make mics which can be directly hooked up to minidisc recorders. However, if you want to record classical acoustic music, I strongly recommend using a preamp and phantom powered mics to get less noise.

In fact I prefer to stay with my MD recorder without putting a preamp etc. between. Is this possbible with the MSH-1M just by connecting them to my MD with the PNP Plug-in Power Adaptor Cable for Mobile Series, $15' ?
Does anyone knows the Greenmachine mics and can someone compare them with the Naiant and the Sony ECM-MS 907?
Once I hired materials and made 2 recordings with 2 different MD recorders which made it very easy to compare. I had 2 Sennheiser mics. I forgot the specs and type but the price was around 600EUR/ pair... I used a soundboard with (I think )phantom power.  The sony mic had better resolts as a whole, which much less noise. The Sennheiser wer more sensitive (especially in higher notes). Maybe it was beacause of my lag of knwoldge about the equipment, though I was not the only one at the recording Anyway: I prefer the 'easy and chaepo' way if I have to do the recording myself.

[pschneider]

...
In fact I prefer to stay with my MD recorder without putting a preamp etc. between. Is this possbible with the MSH-1M just by connecting them to my MD with the PNP Plug-in Power Adaptor Cable for Mobile Series, $15' ?
...

Sure. However, I think the MSH-1H would be better suited for your application since according to specs, the -1H will give you higher output when used with plug-in power. Since the output is unbalanced, you'd do best to keep your cables as short as possible even if you should ever use them with phantom power.

If you can fork out an additional $44, you could get two MHI Power Supply Adapters. They provide a higher voltage (9V) to the mics than the MZ-R30 can supply (I believe about 3V), which should get you a better signal to noise ratio.

Why not ask the developer about this ( music@naiant.com )? I am sure he will be able to tell you which of his mics is best for your purpose.

Peter

[John Willett]

I recently got two pairs of Naiant MSH-10 omnis. You can do worse for $44 a pair

  This is the price of a reasonable bottle of Scotch Whisky.

I wouldn't even think of recording anything with a mic. at such a pitiful price, let alone music.

My first mics cost me about four times this price - and that was back in 1975 when the amount you state was what I earned in a week. 

[John Willett]

If it sounds good, would you really cringe if the price was affordable?

Yes, because you can't make really good mics that cheap.

Especially if you want a pair.

[pschneider]

If it sounds good, would you really cringe if the price was affordable?

Yes, because you can't make really good mics that cheap.

Especially if you want a pair.

Non sequitur. Besides, many people record music with built-in mics which are worth about five cents in components. Under these circumstances, a pair of well-designed, hand-built mics using a capsule that costs a hundred times more may be a big improvement!

When I used the naiant mics for the orchestra recording, it was the crappy preamps in the Edirol R-4 which were problematic, not the $44 pair of mics...

Peter

[TNJazz]

Need to chime in here and say I was rather surprised by the Naiant mics when I tried them out.

You could do a whole lot worse for a whole lot more money, that's for sure.

[John Willett]

I must admit that there are not many mics under £1,000 I would spend my own money on - and I am very careful how I invest my money.

Though I'm not saying that there are not good mics cheaper than that - just that I would not buy them.

At the moment, the only mic. under £1,000 I am considering is the Neumann TLM 49 and would use that mainly for 20's Jazz.

[ghellquist]

As written, I strongly suggest renting mics and recording equipment. If you only do a few recordings a year the yearly cost will not be very high and you will get to use equipment with quality far above what your budget covers when buying.

High quality mics are surprisingly cheap to rent, one reason is they have not really changed that much in the last 20 years (or even more). The current Sennheiser MKH20/30/40 as example came onto the market about 20 years ago. I would expect there to be some really minor changes in these years, and I believe they will still be around 20 years from now. If you plan to buy, used units may be a good idea.

Digital recorders are comparatively expensive as the market is changing so fast. A few years ago none of the budget priced equipment was available, I guess quite a lot more will come on the market the next few years. What was considered top-line a few years ago can sometimes be had used at bottom prices, one example may be stationary DAT-players. A well-kept unit will run for many more years if used sparingly and still gives the same sound quality as when new, then considered really good. The problem is that once the mechanism breaks down it will almost impossible to repair it. You take a chance there.

Gunnar