Topic: Recommendations for transfereing MDs with ? new gear with no resampling?

[Darren]

I am a taper from the 1998 through 2005 era, have a lot of shows and want to get back into the hobby.  Most of the early ones are on Mini Disc and most of those have not been properly backed up.  I want to start dong that right now.

My playback gear is a Sony MDS-JB940 mini disc stereo component deck with both coax and optical outputs.  This was the best $ could buy a few years back.

What portable recorder would you recommend to transfer these MDs to, that has either coax or optical digital connections and WILL NOT resample the digital signal and will not add glitches?

My big concern is with resampling.  Yea, it is MD but I want to do this right before the media begins to go bad.

I'd like to also use the recorder for stealth taping again and am looking for something in the $300 range, 24 bit and transparent preamp.

Don't want to use a soundcard to make the transfers due to problems with them in the past.

[Darren]

Been googling around all afternoon. Gear sure has taken a giant leap forward in the past 5 years!

Perhaps a new soundcard will be the solution?

Do the M-Audio soundcards still transfer digital bit for bit, no resampling?

[Flashmd]

Hi Stu,

I can can only recommend, from good personal experience, the Sony PCM-D50 with it's Optical I/O feature. I have transfered nearly 200+ Minidiscs, in SP Mode Only, without a single hitch. I will tell you though, due to my own ignorance at the beginning, the D50 was not picking up MD Track Marks. After a brief call to Sony Tech Support, all that needed setting up on the D50 was the Sync Feature, smooth sailing ever since.

Now you may think I'm nuts... but sometimes I like to transfer the otherway from D50 to Minidisc for kicks. If you ever should feel the urge... remember to use the Time Machine (6sec buffer). If you don't, the very beginning of a MD Track may not be recorded on your MDS-JB940, due to data stream not activating immediately the Optical Record. The buffer makes up for it!.

Anyway... I know this does not meet your $300 range, but may well be worth it, since Sony advertises their Optical feature as put there to satisfy both DAT and MD lovers, alike. Maybe Ebay?

Best of luck on your choice.

Gordon

[tekdroid]

I'd like to also use the recorder for stealth taping again and am looking for something in the $300 range, 24 bit and transparent preamp.

Gordon hit the nail on the head, except the PCM-D50 is a tad on the chunky side. That's my only concern about the stealth objectives you have in mind, but as far as I'm aware there is nothing smaller with optical input and 24bit currently selling, so it's hard to recommend anything else. Sound-wise, you will be thrilled.

[earmonger]

Or, before they disappear, you could get the MZ-RH1 or MZ-M200 (same unit, MZ-M200 bundled with a mic) and save many hours of realtime transfer. The MZ-RH1 will directly upload your old minidisc files (SP, LP2, LP4) to Sony's SonicStage, where they can then be converted to .wav.

Jeez, prices have gone up--you're pretty much stuck buying the MZ-M200 at the few places it can be found.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JUXL1G/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000GAPP8G&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1TEN7MFVQT30C21S18G4


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/446847-REG/Sony_MZ_M200_MZ_M200_Hi_MD_Recorder.html

And you can use it for stealth recording in .wav, though I think it's only 20-bit . About 90 minutes per 1GB Hi-MD disc of .wav, 8 hours of  Hi-SP, about 30 minutes per 80-minute MD in .wav.

[Darren]

Or, before they disappear, you could get the MZ-RH1 or MZ-M200 (same unit, MZ-M200 bundled with a mic) and save many hours of realtime transfer. The MZ-RH1 will directly upload your old minidisc files (SP, LP2, LP4) to Sony's SonicStage, where they can then be converted to .wav.

Jeez, prices have gone up--you're pretty much stuck buying the MZ-M200 at the few places it can be found.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JUXL1G/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000GAPP8G&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1TEN7MFVQT30C21S18G4


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/446847-REG/Sony_MZ_M200_MZ_M200_Hi_MD_Recorder.html

And you can use it for stealth recording in .wav, though I think it's only 20-bit . About 90 minutes per 1GB Hi-MD disc of .wav, 8 hours of  Hi-SP, about 30 minutes per 80-minute MD in .wav.

Thanks but will that conversion resample the original file or is it "lossless" .

I don't mind real time conversion of my MD recordings as I make WAVs.  Be cool to hear them again plus in this economy I have lots of time on my hands.

Are any of the m-audio soundcards still bit correct in transfering digital audio?  I may go that route if the inside EMI of my PC can't mess with the sound. (IIRC, sound only gets messed with when recording analog signal.)

[page]

The only other thing I can think of on a budget is the Microtrack 2 (coax in). People here use them as bitbuckets behind V3 (among others).  They can be had for around $150-175 or so, just learn how to use them (they are very particular about how you start them and that sort of stuff).

[Darren]

The only other thing I can think of on a budget is the Microtrack 2 (coax in). People here use them as bitbuckets behind V3 (among others).  They can be had for around $150-175 or so, just learn how to use them (they are very particular about how you start them and that sort of stuff).

I see I can get a M-Audio Delta soundcard in the same price range.

Can I create bit perfect 16 WAVs with those 24 bit cards?  No resampling?

[runonce]

Basically any recorders with a digital input - JB3, Iriver 120, Microtrack...all can be had for cheap. Re-sampling not an issue.

I like using a seperate device as you dont have to tie up your computer during the transfer.

[Darren]

Basically any recorders with a digital input - JB3, Iriver 120, Microtrack...all can be had for cheap. Re-sampling not an issue.

I like using a seperate device as you dont have to tie up your computer during the transfer.

Strangely, I have a JB3 but cannot transfer files from it to the PC!  I'm running Windows XP.  Others have the same problem, also.

It also produces split second "hiccups" when recording optical to optical.  Makes the singer sound like she was snorting here and there.(!!!)

[runonce]

Basically any recorders with a digital input - JB3, Iriver 120, Microtrack...all can be had for cheap. Re-sampling not an issue.

I like using a seperate device as you dont have to tie up your computer during the transfer.

Strangely, I have a JB3 but cannot transfer files from it to the PC!  I'm running Windows XP.  Others have the same problem, also.

Not sure what the issues are there - seems to be a proven device on XP - most glitches/problems are known and solved.

Although I think since fewer people run the JB3, its harder to come across help.

If you have one - get it running!

[Darren]

Although I think since fewer people run the JB3, its harder to come across help.

If you have one - get it running!

If you say it is indeed bit correct I will give it a try.

Are there any sites with definitive info on how to get the software to work with XP?  I will be reformatting my hdd within a week with a fresh XP install and will definately give it a shot.

I've got 2 or three shows from my last taping gig in 2005 still stuck in that dang thing!!!

[page]

If you say it is indeed bit correct I will give it a try.

Someone tested this a while ago and it is ok on 16 bits, but truncates if fed a 24bit signal.

(the comment comes to mind about "we had ua5>jb3 tapes which we thought were great and nobody cared enough to figure it out, knowing about the truncation now isn't going to change that")

There are a bunch of threads from the golden years about the jb3 and tests.

[sunjan]

Strangely, I have a JB3 but cannot transfer files from it to the PC!  I'm running Windows XP.  Others have the same problem, also.

It also produces split second "hiccups" when recording optical to optical.  Makes the singer sound like she was snorting here and there.(!!!)

The glitches are most likely due to a faulty optical cable. Had the same issues, changed cable, and they're gone.
PC transfers with JB3 can be a bitch. Usually, flushing all drivers and reinstalling might help. Otherwise, there is third-party software that works better (Notmad Explorer and more, use the search function here).

Regarding legacy MD transfers, the jury is still out whether RH1 data or real-time digi is the way to go.
The canonical thread where this was discussed:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,89560.0.html
Previous conclusions:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=106908.msg1443327#msg1443327
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97042.msg1292667.html#msg1292667

[runonce]

A recent thread suggest the Notmad site has gone robotic...
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129036.0

My favorite transfer product is dbPowerAmp's Sveta Portable Audio.

http://www.dbpoweramp.com/sveta-portable-audio.htm

looks like you can still get a 30 day free trial - 30 bucks there after, supports a lot of other portables as well.

Agree on checking the optical cable...

[runonce]

I think going ATRAC > wav is little like going mp3 > wav...the loss is "built in"

The resulting wav becomes the defacto "lossless" master, in spite of it being of lossy sourcing...

I've never quite understood what the underlying bitdepth is for ATRAC...I think I had an early MD home deck that had 20bit converters.

Interestingly enough - your deck has some setup features that allow you to toggle 16 or 24bit spdif output.
http://www.minidisc.org/manuals/sony/sony_mdsjb940_manual.pdf

It would be interesting to know whats to be gained from the 24 bit setting...perhaps you could use a 24 bit deck.

You'd think the most truly "lossless" transfer would be the raw ATRAC files - as long as media players support the codec...not sure if they do. But at least you take one conversion out of the equation.

[earmonger]

The RH1 just uploads the file. Period. No conversion. No recording out of the headphone jack. A digital file goes from the MD to the computer. The way things should have been in the first place.

Your original file was lossy. The upload does not introduce any additional loss or resampling.  All it does is take off Sony's idiotic encryption.

You'll need to install SonicStage 4.2 or 4.3 from Sony. Then you connect the RH1 and upload. Then, for safety's sake, you run the File Conversion Tool which will give you ATRAC (.oma) files that can be played on any computer with SonicStage (otherwise they are locked to that one computer). Again, no loss--just unencryption.

Then you convert them to .wav with SonicStage.

Or, before they disappear, you could get the MZ-RH1 or MZ-M200 (same unit, MZ-M200 bundled with a mic) and save many hours of realtime transfer. The MZ-RH1 will directly upload your old minidisc files (SP, LP2, LP4) to Sony's SonicStage, where they can then be converted to .wav.

Jeez, prices have gone up--you're pretty much stuck buying the MZ-M200 at the few places it can be found.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JUXL1G/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000GAPP8G&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1TEN7MFVQT30C21S18G4


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/446847-REG/Sony_MZ_M200_MZ_M200_Hi_MD_Recorder.html

And you can use it for stealth recording in .wav, though I think it's only 20-bit . About 90 minutes per 1GB Hi-MD disc of .wav, 8 hours of  Hi-SP, about 30 minutes per 80-minute MD in .wav.

Thanks but will that conversion resample the original file or is it "lossless" .

I don't mind real time conversion of my MD recordings as I make WAVs.  Be cool to hear them again plus in this economy I have lots of time on my hands.

Are any of the m-audio soundcards still bit correct in transfering digital audio?  I may go that route if the inside EMI of my PC can't mess with the sound. (IIRC, sound only gets messed with when recording analog signal.)

[sunjan]

The RH1 just uploads the file. Period. No conversion. No recording out of the headphone jack. A digital file goes from the MD to the computer. The way things should have been in the first place.

Your original file was lossy. The upload does not introduce any additional loss or resampling.  All it does is take off Sony's idiotic encryption.

You'll need to install SonicStage 4.2 or 4.3 from Sony. Then you connect the RH1 and upload. Then, for safety's sake, you run the File Conversion Tool which will give you ATRAC (.oma) files that can be played on any computer with SonicStage (otherwise they are locked to that one computer). Again, no loss--just unencryption.

Then you convert them to .wav with SonicStage.

Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
So basically it boils down to which decoding of the ATRAC is most efficient: software decoding as done by SonicStage (after transfer), or hardware decoding as done by the ATRAC Type R/S chip in the standalone MD decks (before transfer)?!

Some related news!
You're no longer bound to SonicStage for transferring, if you're running on Linux or OSX.
There's an app called NetMDPython that supposedly does transfer of legacy MD, but you still need the RH1:
https://wiki.physik.fu-berlin.de/linux-minidisc/doku.php
"upload of ATRAC-1(SP/LP2/LP4) tracks via NetMD with the MZ-RH1 (Python script)"

Apparently, after uploading, you have to decode the ATRAC file into WAV using ffmpeg:
http://git.ffmpeg.org/?p=ffmpeg;a=blob;f=libavcodec/atrac1.c;hb=HEAD

Maybe (just maybe!) this codec is an improvement compared to the software decoding done by SonicStage?! That could be a solution for Nardo and other users who had issues with frequency cut-off in SS.

I'm on Windows, so I can't test it (and I don't have an RH1 either ), but it would nice if anyone here could decode the same ATRAC file with both SS and ffmpeg, and compare the frequency plots!

The developers are German, so here's the official thread in google-speak:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minidiscforum.de%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D9%26t%3D18579%26start%3D480&sl=de&tl=en

[firmdragon]

man i thought resampling in this context was wiped out long ago like the plague. 

in my experience, soundcards are a pain in the a$$ as well as the source of your resampling fears.  since you already have a md player that outputs digital out, all you really need is a bit bucket.  or essentially a hard drive based digital recorder.

i'm currently using a md player w/ optical out -> iriver.  never been happier w/ transfering.

[Giant_Rick]

If I were you I wouldn't mind about 24 bit. After all the Atrac codec is a lossy one..

The simpliest idea would be  MDS-JB940 (playback) -> wav (16/44.1), you have a line out, a coax out and an optical out. What more can you ask? Moreover, this is a nice playback machine; the JB is a great serie; if it had Type-S playback it would have been even better!

Another idea is transferring with an RH1 straight to the PC, with virtually no loss. But it's not that cheap, so..

Another idea is to use the gear you used for recording. The N510 is a nice playback machine, it has Type-S.. and some people argue that even an R70 can play back with nice quality.

If you decide to playback the MDs keep in mind that the better the sound card is, the better the results will be.
Keep us updated, and let us know what you are transferring!

[sunjan]

Let's straighten out a few misconceptions here...

The simpliest idea would be  MDS-JB940 (playback) -> wav (16/44.1),

I don't know how many legacy MDs the OP has, but if he can borrow an RH1 (friends, gear loaner program?) it sure is simpler than real time transfer in bulk.

the JB is a great serie; if it had Type-S playback it would have been even better!

Type-S only offers improved playback of MDLP (long play, which no taper should have used in the first place!). In all other respects, playback is identical to Type-R:
http://www.audiotstation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16069

Another idea is to use the gear you used for recording. The N510 is a nice playback machine, it has Type-S.. and some people argue that even an R70 can play back with nice quality.

Now we're talking resampling.  For your own listning pleasure, why not.
But if you're spreading the music, I see very little justification going for analog transfers, when Type-R(/S) decks with digi-out go for $50 or so in thrift stores.

If you decide to playback the MDs keep in mind that the better the sound card is, the better the results will be.

Again, this is relevant only for analog transfers, which serious tapers wouldn't go for anyway. For digi transfers, the only thing you have to ensure is that the card is bit perfect. A $30 Zoltrix Nightingale will do.

[sunjan]

Just for the record, I found out that the open source developers now have a solution for Windows too. This means that you can bypass SonicStage alltogether!

https://wiki.physik.fu-berlin.de/linux-minidisc/doku.php?id=netmdpython#upload.py_-_upload_tracks_from_standard_mds_using_sony_s_mz-rh1_m200

This tool is used for digital upload of non-protected tracks... It works with the MZ-RH1 HiMD Walkman only.
...the output format will be ”.aea” for SP tracks (a format implemented by very recent versions of ffmpeg) and ”.wav” for LP2/LP4 tracks.
While the files are really Windows-compatible WAV files, they still do contain the ATRAC3 encoded audio. To play them you need an ATRAC3 decoder. For Windows, that means you have to install the ATRAC3 decoder (acm file)...or a recent version of VLC.

[runonce]

Just for the record, I found out that the open source developers now have a solution for Windows too. This means that you can bypass SonicStage alltogether!

https://wiki.physik.fu-berlin.de/linux-minidisc/doku.php?id=netmdpython#upload.py_-_upload_tracks_from_standard_mds_using_sony_s_mz-rh1_m200

This tool is used for digital upload of non-protected tracks... It works with the MZ-RH1 HiMD Walkman only.
...the output format will be ”.aea” for SP tracks (a format implemented by very recent versions of ffmpeg) and ”.wav” for LP2/LP4 tracks.
While the files are really Windows-compatible WAV files, they still do contain the ATRAC3 encoded audio. To play them you need an ATRAC3 decoder. For Windows, that means you have to install the ATRAC3 decoder (acm file)...or a recent version of VLC.

Wow - interesting

That sounds like the most "true" backup of MD sources...

As long as your media player has the ATRAC codec - no problem playing the raw files.

[andromedanwarmachine]

sorry to come in a bit late on this topic- like 10 months late!!

But I've just read this and have to say "wow"!

I didn't know anyone had scored any success in transferring material from an RH1 to and OSX platform!

When I tried with the handover copy of Sonic stage to my Macbook it just gives you a window in which you can see the material- you can do nothing with it at all.

I still do a bit of Linear PCM recording on my RH-1 and this is groundbreaking- any feedback from anyone who's got this transfer to work with the NetMDPython and the ffmpeg decoder?? and whether it works/would support Linear PCM transfer also...??

JimP

[faninor]

I can't seem to access the NetMDPython scripts:

git clone git://sulphur.uio.no/linux-minidisc
Cloning into linux-minidisc...
sulphur.uio.no[0: 129.240.152.180]: errno=Invalid argument
fatal: unable to connect a socket (Invalid argument)

If anyone else has been using these could you pass the files along to me?

[faninor]

I can't seem to access the NetMDPython scripts:

git clone git://sulphur.uio.no/linux-minidisc
Cloning into linux-minidisc...
sulphur.uio.no[0: 129.240.152.180]: errno=Invalid argument
fatal: unable to connect a socket (Invalid argument)

If anyone else has been using these could you pass the files along to me?

Answering my own question now -- that was an old repository and they've now updated the documentation with the correct server.

I have the NetMDPyton scripts working on one of my computers now. So far, I like it!

[illconditioned]

I am a taper from the 1998 through 2005 era, have a lot of shows and want to get back into the hobby.  Most of the early ones are on Mini Disc and most of those have not been properly backed up.  I want to start dong that right now.

My playback gear is a Sony MDS-JB940 mini disc stereo component deck with both coax and optical outputs.  This was the best $ could buy a few years back.

What portable recorder would you recommend to transfer these MDs to, that has either coax or optical digital connections and WILL NOT resample the digital signal and will not add glitches?

My big concern is with resampling.  Yea, it is MD but I want to do this right before the media begins to go bad.

I'd like to also use the recorder for stealth taping again and am looking for something in the $300 range, 24 bit and transparent preamp.

Don't want to use a soundcard to make the transfers due to problems with them in the past.

Get a NJB3 (nomad jukebox version 3).  This will record optical with no resampling.  Should be very cheap (or free?) here if someone can give it up.

  Richard

[earmonger]

Um, a Nomad is not a minidisc player. The MZ-RH1 is the only thing that uploads from legacy MD (SP, LP2 or LP4 recordings).

[illconditioned]

Um, a Nomad is not a minidisc player. The MZ-RH1 is the only thing that uploads from legacy MD (SP, LP2 or LP4 recordings).

If you can withstand real-time transfers, a regular deck, with optical output > NJB3.  That is what I did to transfer my media.  Of course, the newer RH1 will do uploads (of the old MD media), and it will go (much?) faster than real time, but that unit is pricey, and I don't want to invest in any MD gear now...

  Richard

[detroitblues]

try this been using it for years.
HIMDRenderer 0.54 Released (see last post of this thread) - Sony ...

[sunjan]

Not sure what HiMDRenderer does, but IIUC it only deals with HiMD, and not legacy MD.
HiMD transfers were never really a problem in the first place, the nut that most of us were trying to crack is transfer of legacy MD recordings.

[earmonger]

HiMDRenderer was for the dark days when you could upload from HiMD onto your computer, but it was then encrypted on the computer in ATRAC formats. 

HiMDRenderer made the computer think it was playing back the track and recorded it to .wav. It became unnecessary when SonicStage itself added .wav conversion--which might not have happened if HiMDRenderer hadn't arrived to kick Sony in the...amps.

Sunjan is right--it still doesn't address the legacy-MD transfer. RH1 for that.

[John Willett]

Going digital out from an MD is fine. Just never put it back to MD.

The wav output from the MD would be a clone of the MD quality - but if you go back to MD it will go through the ATRAC process again and throw away more data.

[sunjan]

I have the NetMDPyton scripts working on one of my computers now. So far, I like it!

Looking back at this, the documentation is a bit hazy on whether upload over Windows is actually supported (yet). The steps are just outlined for MacOS and Linux:
https://wiki.physik.fu-berlin.de/linux-minidisc/doku.php?id=netmdpython#upload.py_-_upload_tracks_from_standard_mds_using_sony_s_mz-rh1_m200

<edit>
I just got an answer on the German forum dedicated for this project:
"if you are patient enough to wait another 1-2 months, you will be able to download a more user-friendly version of the software which will allow NetMD down- and uploads (uploads for the MZ-RH1/M200 only)."
(from http://www.minidiscforum.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18579&start=780)

Apparently, this is part of a Google Summer of Code 2011 project:
http://wiki.videolan.org/SoC_2011/LibNetMD

I also read in the footnotes that the python transfer might not work with certain tracks that has been transfered by SonicStage before:
https://wiki.physik.fu-berlin.de/linux-minidisc/doku.php#status

I guess it's The Sony DRM messing around with the file integrity. Might be worth waiting for the GUI version of this open source project...