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Author Topic: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?  (Read 11014 times)

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Offline MRC01

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mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« on: November 08, 2007, 02:17:26 PM »
I've used the search feature and done a lot of reading here already. Most of the opinions are based on distant recording of loud rock or electronic music. I was wondering if anyone had much experience with near micing live acoustic classical music?

Most of what I do is small ensemble stuff: solos, duets, trios up to small chamber orchestras. Usually indoors in a controlled space: recording halls, churches, etc. This is not stealth recording: I have a lot of flexibility in mic arrangement. I am looking for the most neutral, naturally balanced clean sound I can achieve.

So far, I've gotten surprisingly good results with my modified Zoom H4 with its built in mics and with a pair of cheap Shure SM58 mics. Actually I like the built-ins better than the SM58s - they are more natural sounding; a little on the crunchy side but not too bad. These recordings are as good as some studio recordings but they are not audiophile grade. I figured if I can get this good with such cheap gear, a little upgrade may take me a lot further. I'm looking at $500 or less for the pair of mics. New or used is fine with me.

So far my short list is:

Rode NT5 or NT4
Studio Project
Peluso
AKG

I've been impressed with the sample NT5 / NT4 recordings I've heard so far. Haven't heard samples of the other mics in the type of music and situation I will be using. Thanks,

Offline Shawn

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2007, 02:20:42 PM »
paging moke.

Offline Tim

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2007, 02:28:20 PM »
paging moke.

what he said

my $.02

- used will allow you to stretch that budget and if/when you decide to sell you should be able to recoup nearly everything you paid.
- The Peluso's seem to be getting some good reviews.
- Are omni's an option? A used set of DPA 406x are within your budget and they are a tremendous bang for the buck. You'll have to get a preamp or battery box setup but there are some low cost options that wouldn't be far outside your budget (Church Audio?)

Good luck
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stirinthesauce

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2007, 02:33:11 PM »
I've used the search feature and done a lot of reading here already. Most of the opinions are based on distant recording of loud rock or electronic music. I was wondering if anyone had much experience with near micing live acoustic classical music?

Most of what I do is small ensemble stuff: solos, duets, trios up to small chamber orchestras. Usually indoors in a controlled space: recording halls, churches, etc. This is not stealth recording: I have a lot of flexibility in mic arrangement. I am looking for the most neutral, naturally balanced clean sound I can achieve.

So far, I've gotten surprisingly good results with my modified Zoom H4 with its built in mics and with a pair of cheap Shure SM58 mics. Actually I like the built-ins better than the SM58s - they are more natural sounding; a little on the crunchy side but not too bad. These recordings are as good as some studio recordings but they are not audiophile grade. I figured if I can get this good with such cheap gear, a little upgrade may take me a lot further. I'm looking at $500 or less for the pair of mics. New or used is fine with me.

So far my short list is:

Rode NT5 or NT4
Studio Project
Peluso
AKG

I've been impressed with the sample NT5 / NT4 recordings I've heard so far. Haven't heard samples of the other mics in the type of music and situation I will be using. Thanks,

I've run 3 and/or owned out of those 4.  I would recommend a fifth for in that price range.  The beyerdynamic mc930.  Very smooth across the spectrum.  Great lows mids and smooth unhyped highs.

The Peluso's are great, but have that "scooped" sound with a lacking midrange (with the ck4 caps).  The mk21 cap however is excellent!  The Studio Projects, while nice at the price, I would choose something else for acoustic work.  The akg's, to my ears, are, well, unpleasing (unless we are talking about c34's, 422/6's or brass caps).  Maybe I should refraise, I dislike the ck61, ck62, ck63 caps and the 480 preamp.  The 460 body is nice and so is the 450 body with the ck1, 2 or 3 caps.  The rodes, I just have zero experience with.

Another option in that price range are Violet Designs Black Fingers.  Very detailed, transparent mics and an outstanding price.  Another is the Nevaton mc49.  Excellent handmade mic!  You will have to wait on these as they are made to order.  

The beyers, nevatons, violet mics can all be had for under a grand and sound as good if not better than mics 2 and 3 times the cost (IMO).  We have run all of the mics mentioned in a variety of settings as ambient pairs for acoustic work, aud mics as part of multitrack mix, overheads, micing guitars, sax, or just plain ole PA 2 channel recording.

If looking at LD options (large diaphragm), may I suggest the AT 4050.  A pair can be had for around 700 used and sound outstanding for small orchestral ensembles.  I used them this summer on some chamber music and was blown away.  They are multipattern also (card, omni, fig 8) so are very versatile.

Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2007, 02:34:31 PM »
what about an LSD2? I think then run around $500-600. I personally like the way LD's capture the essence of acoustic. Used to have a pair of Rode NT5's and they were great for close micing bluegrass and acoustic guitar. They are tough to beat for the price.

Offline TNJazz

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2007, 02:44:58 PM »
The beyers, nevatons, violet mics can all be had for under a grand and sound as good if not better than mics 2 and 3 times the cost (IMO).  We have run all of the mics mentioned in a variety of settings as ambient pairs for acoustic work, aud mics as part of multitrack mix, overheads, micing guitars, sax, or just plain ole PA 2 channel recording.

The Nevaton MCE400 can be had for under a grand.  Not the MC49 though...they are about $1200 apiece (new).  The MCE400 are very nice sounding omnis, but I think they're actually a bit more directional than most.

The Violet Fingers are a cool mic.  I actually listened to a jazz recording made with them today and they did quite well.  Not sure how they would do on classical music though.  I don't think too many people are using them so there's no real reference point.

I would second the suggestion of the AT4050's.  Very neutral mic, which is of course ideal for classical music.

The LSD2 is not bad, but IMO there are better choices for acoustic music.  I had one for a couple of weeks.  Did one completely acoustic jazz gig with it and wasn't all that happy with it, so it was outta there.

One thing to note - a lot of people have reported noise when using external mics with the Zoom recorder.  I've seen several posts where the noise was far greater than the built-in mics.  You may want to look at the overall chain and swap out the recorder for something a little cleaner as well.
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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2007, 02:49:16 PM »
TN, what about the price range of $500. Weren't you talking about some EU mini omnis that were good.

stirinthesauce

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2007, 02:58:03 PM »
TN, what about the price range of $500. Weren't you talking about some EU mini omnis that were good.

Those are the mce400 he just mentioned.  As for the price of the mk49, I was getting confused with the mce400.  Ooops  :P

Offline TNJazz

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2007, 03:07:31 PM »
TN, what about the price range of $500. Weren't you talking about some EU mini omnis that were good.

yes, the MCE400.

They're about $600-ish with shipping for a pair.  I am going to post a sample that Tom (tcf) recorded later on this evening in the Team Underappreciated European Mics thread.


Those are the mce400 he just mentioned.  As for the price of the mk49, I was getting confused with the mce400.  Ooops  :P

EDIT:  ^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^   :P
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 03:09:37 PM by TNJazz »
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Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2007, 03:09:54 PM »
One thing to note - a lot of people have reported noise when using external mics with the Zoom recorder.  I've seen several posts where the noise was far greater than the built-in mics.  You may want to look at the overall chain and swap out the recorder for something a little cleaner as well.
Good call there. Back when I first got my H4 I rang out the specs and discovered this problem. Long story short, I ended up adding a few low ESR Tantalum caps to stiffen the DC-DC converter, which improved the S/N ratio by about 12 dB. Also I built a 9 V external battery pack from AA bats and use line power. This improves the S/N ratio even further and enables 48V phantom with no noise issues. In this configuration the noise spectrum at high gain shows a S/N ratio of about 108 dB - significantly better than it was before.

The only problem remaining with my H4 is that its FR is down about 3 dB at 20 kHz. Not really noticeable though, since it has flat response from 20 Hz to 10 kHz and the rolloff to 20k is smooth and linear. A better mic preamp would be nice, but for the price I can't complain with the performance I'm getting.

P.S. I think I want to stick with directional mics. I like having a natural stereo image that can be collapsed to mono without phase issues causing frequency response problems. That would suggest an incident or near incident 90* type of arrangement, right?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 03:12:58 PM by MRC01 »

Offline TNJazz

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2007, 03:10:57 PM »
One thing to note - a lot of people have reported noise when using external mics with the Zoom recorder.  I've seen several posts where the noise was far greater than the built-in mics.  You may want to look at the overall chain and swap out the recorder for something a little cleaner as well.
Good call there. Back when I first got my H4 I rang out the specs and discovered this problem. Long story short, I ended up adding a few low ESR Tantalum caps to stiffen the DC-DC converter, which improved the S/N ratio by about 12 dB. Also I built a 9 V external battery pack from AA bats and use line power. This improves the S/N ratio even further and enables 48V phantom with no noise issues. In this configuration the noise spectrum at high gain shows a S/N ratio of about 108 dB - significantly better than it was before.

The only problem remaining with my H4 is that its FR is down about 3 dB at 20 kHz. Not really noticeable though, since it has flat response from 20 Hz to 10 kHz and the rolloff to 20k is smooth and linear. A better mic preamp would be nice, but for the price I can't complain with the performance I'm getting.


interesting.  I've read of the problem but this is the first "solution" I've seen.  +t to you!
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Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2007, 03:31:22 PM »
Quote
The only problem remaining with my H4 is that its FR is down about 3 dB at 20 kHz. Not really noticeable though, since it has flat response from 20 Hz to 10 kHz and the rolloff to 20k is smooth and linear. A better mic preamp would be nice, but for the price I can't complain with the performance I'm getting.

That could be the result of conversion.  Worth a test before expecting an external preamp to solve the problem.
You mean the result of the H4's anti-aliasing or other digital filters? I tested it by playing a set of line level test signals from a CD player with known measured flat frequency response and recording them. The H4 has the same FR curve recording at 44.1, 48 and 96 kHz. A mic preamp with ruler flat response would be nice, but the H4's response is actually pretty decent and doesn't color the music in any noticeable way.

Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2007, 03:38:55 PM »
what about an LSD2? I think then run around $500-600. I personally like the way LD's capture the essence of acoustic. Used to have a pair of Rode NT5's and they were great for close micing bluegrass and acoustic guitar. They are tough to beat for the price.
I like my TL's and think they would allow a lot of flex ability w/ four patterns. Twatts has a match pair in the YS.
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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2007, 05:39:31 PM »
Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive. :P

I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers. I posted a test a while back with those microphones in the lineup against some real heavy hitters from DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps, and AKG...quite a few people(all o studio guys with lots of experience recording classical music ) wrote and told me that they were amazed at how great the ATs sounded, and "are you sure you didnt get the files mixed up"? :). I record classical music/acoustic music exclusively and use those mics all the time.

They are clean,perform well in both diffuse and near field applications, cheap, built like tanks, and are extremely versatile. Because of their status as workhorse mics, they will always sell  well.

(also have 3 patterns..card, omni, figure 8) so you can run any config you choose. One of those mics that may not sound amazing on every single application, but will ALWAYS work.(and sound amazing on quite a few things!). I always grab more when I see em on ebay. AT 4050 all the way.
if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy
« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 05:49:04 PM by Teddy »

Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2007, 05:58:00 PM »
Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive. :P
...
I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers.if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy
Close is a relative term. During my last session I was recording piano / double bass duets. I put the mics about 6 feet from the double bass and 10 feet from the piano. This gave a decent balance where the piano didn't overpower the bass. Close enough to pick up good detail, far enough away to get a sense of the room space in the recording (but not too much).

I just rebenched my H4 - with my external battery pack the line input measures -1 dB at 20 Hz and -1.3 dB at 20 kHz (with 0 dB set at 1 kHz). A very flat, smooth response curve. Considerably better performance than I last measured. S/N measures over 100 dB. That line voltage battery pack really makes a difference.

I'm a newbie to external mics and don't know how to capture a good stereo image with omnis. I downloaded a couple of docs from Shure that explain everything but I haven't seen if they cover using omnis.

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2007, 06:34:31 PM »
Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive. :P

I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers. I posted a test a while back with those microphones in the lineup against some real heavy hitters from DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps, and AKG...quite a few people(all o studio guys with lots of experience recording classical music ) wrote and told me that they were amazed at how great the ATs sounded, and "are you sure you didnt get the files mixed up"? :). I record classical music/acoustic music exclusively and use those mics all the time.

They are clean,perform well in both diffuse and near field applications, cheap, built like tanks, and are extremely versatile. Because of their status as workhorse mics, they will always sell  well.

(also have 3 patterns..card, omni, figure 8) so you can run any config you choose. One of those mics that may not sound amazing on every single application, but will ALWAYS work.(and sound amazing on quite a few things!). I always grab more when I see em on ebay. AT 4050 all the way.
if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy

Be interested to hear your sample in a repost.  I'll try and rummage thru my hd for some chamber music I did this summer with my 4050's.  Bout time to track that sucker out  :P  Maybe I'll get a sample up to.

Offline digifish_music

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2007, 06:56:35 PM »

So far my short list is:

Rode NT5 or NT4

I've been impressed with the sample NT5 / NT4 recordings I've heard so far. Haven't heard samples of the other mics in the type of music and situation I will be using. Thanks,

I have an NT4 and NT5s. They make great recordings of acoustic instruments. I would recommend the NT5 pair for the added flexibility and reduced cost relative to the NT4.

That said I often end up using the NT4 as it's so convenient and just works.

NT5 Violin / Cello

NT4 3 Piece group

NT4 Acoustic guitar

I'd also have a pair of AT 3032s if UPS would just work out where I live! :P

This is interesing...piano + vocal

Neumann TLM103

vs

AT3032

Note these are omnis so you can hear more room ambiance vs the Neuman, but the AT3032s sound great IMO.

from

http://www.godsownclay.com/Microphones/at3032page1.html

digifish

« Last Edit: November 08, 2007, 07:15:11 PM by digifish_music »
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RebelRebel

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2007, 08:37:08 PM »
Omnis are far superior to any other pattern for recording classical music,(flat response, best LF pickup, best pickup of the room, many other reasons) provided that the venue doesnt sound like a tiled bathroom underwater.

I will repost those files for you.

Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive. :P
...
I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers.if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy
Close is a relative term. During my last session I was recording piano / double bass duets. I put the mics about 6 feet from the double bass and 10 feet from the piano. This gave a decent balance where the piano didn't overpower the bass. Close enough to pick up good detail, far enough away to get a sense of the room space in the recording (but not too much).

I just rebenched my H4 - with my external battery pack the line input measures -1 dB at 20 Hz and -1.3 dB at 20 kHz (with 0 dB set at 1 kHz). A very flat, smooth response curve. Considerably better performance than I last measured. S/N measures over 100 dB. That line voltage battery pack really makes a difference.

I'm a newbie to external mics and don't know how to capture a good stereo image with omnis. I downloaded a couple of docs from Shure that explain everything but I haven't seen if they cover using omnis.


Offline Jamos

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2007, 10:00:02 PM »
I'd also have to suggest the AT4050, if you can afford them.  They can be had for $400/new, and less used.  They are really outstanding mics for all kinds of things.

I love the Shure KSM32 & 44's also and would suggest them as well.

I've used NT4's as overheads on drum kits before, but that's the extent of my experience with them.

If you can find a good used pair of DPA 406x, that would be a great option as well.

 

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2007, 12:27:45 AM »
You might want to look at the Avenson STO2's as well (omnis).
They can be had for around $500 a pair. I am consistently happy with
the recordings I get with mine, especially when recording acoustic music.
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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2007, 07:46:29 AM »
You might want to look at the Avenson STO2's as well (omnis).
They can be had for around $500 a pair. I am consistently happy with
the recordings I get with mine, especially when recording acoustic music.

Very good option as well.  I miss mine.  Ruler flat freq. response, extremely detailed mics. 

Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2007, 09:00:14 AM »
Omnis are far superior to any other pattern for recording classical music,(flat response, best LF pickup, best pickup of the room, many other reasons) provided that the venue doesnt sound like a tiled bathroom underwater.

I will repost those files for you.

Thanks. A pair of AT4050s is gonna cost twice or more what the NT5 costs. But everyone says they're better and they do look better on paper (I pulled the mfr spec sheet). So it looks like it's down to the NT5 or the AT4050. I look forward to hearing your samples - since the AT4050s are more than twice the price I'd have to be confident how much better they are.

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2007, 10:34:08 AM »
MRC01, nice to "meet" you--I'm another classical music recording engineer who hangs out here.

When you're recording at relatively close range in a generally well-balanced acoustic (i.e. not harsh or too reverberant), a fully detailed stereo representation down to the last centimeter is neither necessary nor desirable; you tend to get exaggerated width effects such as "the viola that ate Manhattan." Thus you can sidestep the defaults and use microphone patterns such as wide cardioid or omni. These can give a very pleasant overall "feel" of spaciousness to the recording, and musicians often loooove the results as far as their precious tone color is concerned (though my conscience tells me that this is partly a trick of perception).

I'm particularly fond of wide cardioids, since with appropriate placement, they let you get the nifty "feel" while still maintaining a stable stereo image. That is the best of both worlds as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, if you're on a budget, the minimum cost of reasonably good omni microphones is far less than what you have to pay for a good pair of wide cardioids--unfortunately, since this means that a lot of people never get to use any really good wide cardioids, and never realize what they're missing.

If you decide to use omnidirectional microphones, their on-axis frequency response needs to be fairly close to flat in the treble. Thus you may need to do some shopping around, since the most popular omni microphones for medium-distance recording, and thus the ones people here would be most likely to recommend to you, mostly have a rise on axis of some 5 - 8 dB at high frequencies--a characteristic which is quite undesirable for close-up classical recording. There are reasons for all this, which we can go into if you like. Basically you should be looking for a "free field" rather than a "diffuse field" type of omni in your application.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:42:59 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

stirinthesauce

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2007, 11:03:56 AM »
Omnis are far superior to any other pattern for recording classical music,(flat response, best LF pickup, best pickup of the room, many other reasons) provided that the venue doesnt sound like a tiled bathroom underwater.

I will repost those files for you.

Thanks. A pair of AT4050s is gonna cost twice or more what the NT5 costs. But everyone says they're better and they do look better on paper (I pulled the mfr spec sheet). So it looks like it's down to the NT5 or the AT4050. I look forward to hearing your samples - since the AT4050s are more than twice the price I'd have to be confident how much better they are.


I'm sure Teddy's samples will be much nicer than mine, but here is a 35sec clip I dug up from a chamber concert this summer in a small chapel.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2rf4zs

This is a student orchestra.  You will here what sounds like some self noise in the background.  It isn't.  The damn exhaust fan (large, old, and rusty) kicked on in the a/v room right as they started.  If I was being payed, I would have freaked out.  As it was, I was just volunteering some time for my Church through some archiving so I just sat through the concert completely distracted.  Anyways, no processing to this whatsoever, just a pair of at4050's, omni setting, about 8' in front split maybe 10'.  Most of what we do is multitracking in clubs so any other samples I have are not what you would be looking for.  What I hear from this sample is what I heard there.  Very transparent, detailed, uncolored sound.  Exactly what I was looking for and why I chose these over other mics in our locker for doing a simple 2 channel recording. 

Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2007, 11:05:44 AM »
I have an NT4 and NT5s. They make great recordings of acoustic instruments.
I am intrigued by the NT-55 samples on your web site. Looks like a contender and the flexibility of cardiod or omni is a big plus. Based on your sound samples, the NT-55's sounds overall more natural than the Neumann. The Neumann has that super detailed top end that many people like - the "hi-fi" sound - but to me it sounds unnaturally brighter than reality. OTOH, the NT-55's bass is exaggerated, bloomy and muffled - the Neumann's bass is more natural.

I suspect that in these samples, the muddy NT-55 bass response is at least in part due to its being omni and picking up room resonances more than the Neumann. Why not compare using the cardiod capsule?

Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2007, 12:59:37 PM »
I'm sure Teddy's samples will be much nicer than mine, but here is a 35sec clip I dug up from a chamber concert this summer in a small chapel.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2rf4zs
Thanks. It sounds well balanced and slightly on the warm side of neutral. Nice. But a bit boxy. The boxiness could be the room rather than the mic - I'll assume it is, since small chapels can sound that way.
BTW, better intonation than I would expect from a student group  :)

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2007, 02:50:30 PM »
Digifish - you have a great web site, love the samples.

What do you think of that NT1-A? Sounds great to me.

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2007, 03:44:50 PM »
I'm sure Teddy's samples will be much nicer than mine, but here is a 35sec clip I dug up from a chamber concert this summer in a small chapel.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/2rf4zs
Thanks. It sounds well balanced and slightly on the warm side of neutral. Nice. But a bit boxy. The boxiness could be the room rather than the mic - I'll assume it is, since small chapels can sound that way.
BTW, better intonation than I would expect from a student group  :)

boxiness is definitly the room.  Not ideal for recording.  Our theater is much better, but very large (seats 1600) clappboard theater.

The student group are better than what you would typically get.  These are some of the top student musicians in the country who study at the University every summer as part of their concert series.  Basically practice all day and the best of the best get to perform in the nightly concerts.  Where I live, we are on good terms with the University, so we get a concert series too.  We do 3 chamber concerts (1 per week) and then in our Theater, we have the full orchestra (70+ student musicians) put on their final concert at the end of the series. 


Offline digifish_music

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2007, 06:02:00 PM »
What do you think of that NT1-A? Sounds great to me.

Actually I was going to suggest a pair of NT1-A's. To my ear this mic is the steal of the century. The low self noise is amazing in the studio setting. I often pair the NT1-A with a Sound Devices MixPre and together you can hear the termites eating the neighbours house :)   

The NT1-A does have a hump around 12K in the frequency response, however that said I have never noticed the mic to sound unnatural or brittle. some gentle EQ can fix that if it's an issue. Also being a large diaphragm it's supposedly not as good on fast transients, but again, I have never noticed anything but superb results on acoustic instruments and vocals.

You can buy them in matched pairs too.

digifish
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 08:25:06 PM by digifish_music »
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Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 06:18:22 PM »
You can buy them in matched pairs too.
How important is it - in general - to get a matched pair? Does it vary from one maker to the next, depending on how consistent their production runs are?

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2007, 08:26:25 PM »
You can buy them in matched pairs too.
How important is it - in general - to get a matched pair? Does it vary from one maker to the next, depending on how consistent their production runs are?

For an NT1-A probably not that important, their production is highly automated and has per-unit quality control. I remember hearing someone note that a Rode Matched pair was just consecutive serial numbers. It doesn't cost any more from what I have seen.

digifish
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 09:54:45 PM by digifish_music »
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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2007, 12:28:27 AM »
well, it certainly makes life easier..Of course  microphones from "QUALITY" companies(if it were me I would go with the big 3..Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps(or DPA) are going to be so close that it wont matter necessarily whether they are matched(meaning on and off axis response, sensitivity "output") or not, but with some of the cheaper brands, it can be an issue. 
You can buy them in matched pairs too.
How important is it - in general - to get a matched pair? Does it vary from one maker to the next, depending on how consistent their production runs are?

Offline DSatz

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2007, 12:55:10 PM »
MRC01, for the kind of stereo recording techniques in which the main (or only) signals come from two microphones which are coincident or closely spaced, those two microphones must be well matched. With modern-day production techniques and automated quality control, the "serious" manufacturers can produce entire batches of microphone amplifiers which are matched well enough that they don't need to be specially selected. However, microphone capsules are still another matter. That's the critical component of a condenser microphone which mainly determines the sonic characteristics that people get all excited about one way or the other. It is the transducer which converts minute amounts of acoustical energy into electrical energy; it has one foot in both worlds, so to speak.

The problem is a conflict between marketing requirements and technical capabilities. If you are a microphone manufacturer and can convince the public that your microphones are so uniformly produced that no special matching is ever necessary, you've accomplished a valuable marketing feat. And it's certainly true that the better manufacturers' production tolerances have improved considerably in the past several decades. A typical pair of microphones from one of the better manufacturers (not specially selected) could be within 2 dB across the entire audible range at any chosen angle of sound incidence (excluding the region of a null in the pattern, of course). And that's a huge manufacturing achievement--but it's still wider than the tolerances on, say, an off-the-shelf Radio Shack receiver. This is not a problem that can be waved away with marketing slogans.

Again, the "serious" manufacturers make their capsules as uniform as possible, but typically, the actual variations in production are still several times greater than the variations in the response of microphone amplifiers. Mainly the variations are in overall sensitivity and the response at both ends of the frequency spectrum. For any given capsule type, if you know its 1 kHz sensitivity and its 40 Hz and 16 kHz response relative to 1 kHz, you can match a pair on that basis and do well.

Some manufacturers offer pairs of capsules that have been selected and matched on the basis of their actual production curves, which are not normally released to the public. Some importers claim to match pairs of capsules or microphones by ear; that could be feasible using a direct difference (subtraction) method of some kind, though it would still require careful measurement and record-keeping; otherwise the effort and concentration required would be almost unbearable. If anyone really can make such selections entirely by ear without difficulty, that would mainly imply an appalling lack of quality control at the factory! Even highly trained, talented listeners can't usually identify differences of (say) 1/2 a dB correctly even if they do perceive that something is different about the sound.

Meanwhile when you buy a pair of microphones it usually is only the amplifiers whose serial number you get to see. Not very many manufacturers serially number their capsules in a way that lets the customer see this numbering without disassembling the capsule head--and even if you can see the capsule serial numbers, that still doesn't tell you what you need to know (i.e. how closely did they turn out, and was there some other available pairing of equally good capsules that would have matched more closely?).

One prominent manufacturer (Neumann) recently changed over from offering "stereo sets" which their national distributors simply put together based on consecutive microphone serial numbers (which, of course, are the serial numbers of the amplifiers--not where the real problem is!) to "stereo sets" in which the factory selects the capsules and deliberately installs them on consecutively serially numbered amplifiers. Again, from the outside, the customer can't tell which procedure was followed, nor whether perhaps someone has meanwhile exchanged the capsule head(s) of one or both microphones, so this solution is helpful only up to a point. But for those who keep careful track of their equipment, it's a welcome improvement.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 02:13:47 PM by DSatz »
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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2007, 08:22:54 PM »
Hesitant to revive this thread, but I'd love to hear those 4050 samples of Teddy's.  Are they posted anywhere?  I'm considering having busman mod my ADK TL's which I use primarily for acoustic work, but would like to evaluate some other options as well.
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Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2008, 12:07:03 AM »
Actually I was going to suggest a pair of NT1-A's. To my ear this mic is the steal of the century. The low self noise is amazing in the studio setting. I often pair the NT1-A with a Sound Devices MixPre and together you can hear the termites eating the neighbours house :)   

The NT1-A does have a hump around 12K in the frequency response, however that said I have never noticed the mic to sound unnatural or brittle. some gentle EQ can fix that if it's an issue. Also being a large diaphragm it's supposedly not as good on fast transients, but again, I have never noticed anything but superb results on acoustic instruments and vocals.
Well I finally got a pair of NT1-As. I am driving them with my Zoom H4 and I'm happy with the results. Super clean, high resolution, great sound. As you mentioned, these mics are a little bright but not excessively so. For close-up recording which tends to enhance the brightness I EQ it down *slightly*, like -3 dB @ 11 kHz Q = 1.2. But to be fair I would probably do that with any other mic to avoid the artificially bright sound you always get with close micing. The noise level is incredibly low. Even with my cheap portable recorder I'm getting ambient noise about -66 dB on its highest gain setting (very quiet room...). And that's too much gain for recording my chamber ensemble, so the noise level is really even quieter. So low it is just not an issue.

I recorded full spectrum frequency sweeps to see how well matched they are. At all frequencies the levels match within 1.5 dB, and that includes whatever imbalances may exist in my recorder. I reversed the inputs and got the same. And it is not a matched pair, so either I got lucky or Rode has very consistent production.

Incidentally, no issues driving them with the H4. They are quieter than its built-in mics and they are sensitive enough to put out the same recording level at the same gain setting. I've done spectrum analysis on the recordings looking for problems but it's super clean.

Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2008, 12:22:54 AM »
I forgot to ask my question: is a cardiod mic's response pattern spherical? That is to say, does it have the same response pattern in the vertical plane, as it does in the horizontal plane?

If the diaphragm is circular, I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be symmetric vertically & horizontally - the pattern should be the same. Except perhaps for extreme angles where the mic body gets in the way. Is that true?

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2008, 02:08:39 AM »
I forgot to ask my question: is a cardiod mic's response pattern spherical? That is to say, does it have the same response pattern in the vertical plane, as it does in the horizontal plane?

Well, sort of yes and no. If you take a good end-adressed small diameter microphone, say Neumann KM-184, the answer is quite much yes. This is because the whole design is "circular". If you take one of the side adressed large diaphragm mics, looking something like a U-87, they are pretty much spherical, but not totally so. The body is not quite "circular".

And then there are mics that are by purpose not spherical, two examples here:
http://www.microtechgefell.de/eng/prod/konden/kem970/kem970_0.htm
http://www.pearl.se/estart.htm  (check the Pearl Elm).

Gunnar

Offline DSatz

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2008, 01:30:03 PM »
MRC01, actually there is a bit of a paradox in the situation. ghellquist's reply is perfectly correct, but the directional pattern of an end-addressed, cylindrical microphone can never be perfect at high frequencies--while with a side-addressed microphone, the polar pattern in the horizontal plane can be audibly more consistent (though still not perfect) across the high-frequency part of the spectrum. So you generally have to choose between freedom of orientation and having the best available pattern at all frequencies.

In other words, fact #1 is that in an end-addressed cylindrical microphone, the pattern will be essentially the same in both the vertical and horizontal planes. That's just another way of saying that the microphone doesn't have a "top" or a "bottom" side--you can rotate it on its own axis while recording, and the sound you pick up won't change. But precisely because of the geometry which creates fact #1, fact #2 is that in either of the two planes (or any other plane that you choose), this pattern will vary at higher frequencies and at some angles of incidence. This is because sound at different angles of incidence will "see" a different shape than what front-arriving sound will "see", and will flow around or be reflected or diffracted differently.

Contrast this with a side-addressed cylindrical microphone: fact #1 will not be a fact any more (because in the vertical plane, the microphone has an entirely different shape than in the horizontal). But the situation for fact #2 changes, too, since no matter what the angle of incidence may be in the horizontal plane, the sound waves still come up against an identically-shaped and -sized side of the cylinder. As a result, the directional pattern in the horizontal plane can be somewhat better at high frequencies (of course that's just the housing--the capsule has its own acoustical properties, including its flat surface in the front and back). But you lose rotational symmetry completely, and the horizontal and vertical patterns can no longer be identical.

Does this make sense? It has some pretty interesting practical implications, I think. The cardioids I own which have the least peakiness off-axis at high frequencies are side-addressed, single-diaphragm cardioids. I like these microphones very much, as do many other classical musicians I've recorded with them. I'm at least as much of a gear slut as anyone else here is, yet as of autumn this year, I'll have owned these same microphones for 35 years--and if I absolutely had to sell all but two of my microphones, I would keep those two. (To be fair, I should explain that they're three-pattern microphones of a kind in which the omni setting is a true pressure transducer, unlike most other switchable-pattern microphones. Thus I would still have a considerable range of recording techniques available even if this gruesome choice were forced upon me.)

However, cardioids with a slightly brighter diffuse-field response seem to be more widely preferred in general. I don't always agree with this preference, but I do sometimes--for more distant miking in large, reverberant halls with smooth high-frequency absorption. Of my two favorite microphones of this second kind that come to mind, both are end-addressed--and that's no surprise when you consider the effects of the geometry.

--best regards
« Last Edit: January 17, 2008, 02:01:14 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline MRC01

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Re: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2008, 02:02:03 PM »
Contrast this with a side-addressed cylindrical microphone: fact #1 will not be a fact any more (because in the vertical plane, the microphone has an entirely different shape than in the horizontal) ... you lose rotational symmetry completely, and the horizontal and vertical patterns can no longer be identical.
Hmmmm... so it would be useful for makers of side addressed mics (like the NT1-A) to provide two response graphs - one in the horizontal plane, one in the vertical plane. Mine came with only one graph. I assume it is in the horizontal plane.

That means if I mount my mics sideways, I do not know what the pattern will be, because it won't be the same as the graph in the manual.

 

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