Topic: Mic sensitivity test: DPA4061/SP-CMC-8(AT943)- and R-09HR internals

[Arni99]

I just ran a testrecording to check the sensitivity of my mics and the r-09hr internals.
 
I recorded the same 20 seconds of music with:
 
-dpa4061
-sp-cmc-8(AT943) (high-sens) now
-and r09hr internal mics(switched to low-sens on back of r-09hr)
 
 
Then I checked the amount of amplification needed for reaching 0db with "effects/amplify" in Audacity.
 
The results are as follows:
dpa4061 => +15,5db amplification needed
sp-cmc-8(high sens)=> only +6,7dB amplification needed
sp-cmc-8(low-sens-modded) => +18,5dB amplification needed
internals(low-sens) => +7,7dB amplification needed
 
=>SP-CMC-8 is now almost 9dB hotter than the dpa4061
Before my low-sens-mod-removal the SP-CMC-8 was 3dB LESS sensitive than dpa4061 and I would have needed +18db of amplification.
=>the mod makes about 12db difference.
 

[Belexes]

Thanks Arni for doing this test. I was wondering about the amount of dB loss on my low sens CMC-8's.

T

[Dede2002]

I just ran a testrecording to check the sensitivity of my mics and the r-09hr internals.
 
I recorded the same 20 seconds of music with:
 
-dpa4061
-sp-cmc-8(AT943) (high-sens) now
-and r09hr internal mics(switched to low-sens on back of r-09hr)
 
 
Then I checked the amount of amplification needed for reaching 0db with "effects/amplify" in Audacity.
 
The results are as follows:
dpa4061 => +15,5db amplification needed
sp-cmc-8(high sens)=> only +6,7dB amplification needed
sp-cmc-8(low-sens-modded) => +18,5dB amplification needed
internals(low-sens) => +7,7dB amplification needed
 
=>SP-CMC-8 is now almost 9dB hotter than the dpa4061
Before my low-sens-mod-removal the SP-CMC-8 was 3dB LESS sensitive than dpa4061 and I would have needed +18db of amplification.
=>the mod makes about 12db difference.
 

Thanks, my friend 

[bmr]

Are the lower noise floors on the DPAs advantageous, or does that imply that given the same source, you'd just have to amplify the resulting recording that much more than, say, the AT943s, to get to a certain volume level (which, if I'm not mistaken, would result in an increase of white noise)?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out the ramifications of this -- as an owner of AT943s without the low sensitivity mod looking into a purchase of the R-09HR, I'm curious about pretty much every technical detail regarding the pairing of the two.

+T for the legwork.

[Arni99]

Are the lower noise floors on the DPAs advantageous, or does that imply that given the same source, you'd just have to amplify the resulting recording that much more than, say, the AT943s, to get to a certain volume level (which, if I'm not mistaken, would result in an increase of white noise)?

I guess I'm just trying to figure out the ramifications of this -- as an owner of AT943s without the low sensitivity mod looking into a purchase of the R-09HR, I'm curious about pretty much every technical detail regarding the pairing of the two.

+T for the legwork.

With my former R-09 and used DPA 4061s I had to use MIC-in for taping loud amplified rock shows. On line-in levels were just nowhere..peaks below -20 on the levelmeter.

Mic-in on the R-09HR seems to be about +20dB hotter than its Line-in.
=>with 4061s I simply would use Mic-in IF Line-in-peaks were too low.
=>best results would be gained by using an external preamp plugged into LINE-IN: 4061=>external preamp=>LINE-IN.

With the unmodded sp-cmc-8 you get plenty of signal for recording amplified shows on line-in of the R-09HR....no white-noise problem.

Noise-floor on the R- 09HR is much better than with the former R-09....guysonic measured at least -10dB less noise floor compared to the old R-09.

[Hman]

Thanks Arni..
This is very useful information, since I run the same rig as you do.. (DPA, AT & R-09HR).
Moreover I have an external pre (CA-ST9100), so this gives me a good indication on how much gain to add.

Thanks again!

[ghellquist]

I guess you already know that the 4060 is exactly the same mic, but with 10.5 dB higher sensitivity. As I understand it, the two versions where made to better work together with different types of equipment. And just maybe in many applications the 4060 is better that the 4061.  (There is another difference in that you loose 10dB in max sound level, but both values are well into terribly painful sound levels).

Gunnar

[Arni99]

I guess you already know that the 4060 is exactly the same mic, but with 10.5 dB higher sensitivity. As I understand it, the two versions where made to better work together with different types of equipment. And just maybe in many applications the 4060 is better that the 4061.  (There is another difference in that you loose 10dB in max sound level, but both values are well into terribly painful sound levels).

Gunnar

Yes I know the 4060 very well.
I had the DPA4060 and got extreme distortion 5m in front of stacks ...was taping a gothic-rock-metal band...fortunately I used earplugs.
Personally I believe the irivers line-in got overloaded by the hot signal coming from the 4060s at this extremely loud show.
I don´t thinks the mics distorted BUT the analog line-in of my rockboxed iriver which also showed problems when using high sensitivity HLSC(MKE40s).

The R09 line-in can handle considerably higher SPL than the irivers combined(mic/line-in).

For taping more silent shows I´d use my DPA 4061 on MIC-IN of the R09-HR or an external preamp on line-in OR my SP-CMC-8 on line-in/mic-in.
Plenty of options to choose from .

[Dede2002]

I guess you already know that the 4060 is exactly the same mic, but with 10.5 dB higher sensitivity. As I understand it, the two versions where made to better work together with different types of equipment. And just maybe in many applications the 4060 is better that the 4061.  (There is another difference in that you loose 10dB in max sound level, but both values are well into terribly painful sound levels).

Gunnar

Yes I know the 4060 very well.
I had the DPA4060 and got extreme distortion 5m in front of stacks ...was taping a gothic-rock-metal band...fortunately I used earplugs.
Personally I believe the irivers line-in got overloaded by the hot signal coming from the 4060s at this extremely loud show.
I don´t thinks the mics distorted BUT the analog line-in of my rockboxed iriver which also showed problems when using high sensitivity HLSC(MKE40s).

The R09 line-in can handle considerably higher SPL than the irivers combined(mic/line-in).

For taping more silent shows I´d use my DAP 4061 on MIC-IN of the R09-HR or an external preamp on line-in OR my SP-CMC-8 on line-in/mic-in.
Plenty of options to choose from .

So I can use a 4060 > R-09HR Line In in a loud (club/bar) show?
You have an interesting point right there. I was under the impression that the 4060 distorted at high SPL by itself.
Correct me here if I'm wrong, friend 

[Arni99]

I guess you already know that the 4060 is exactly the same mic, but with 10.5 dB higher sensitivity. As I understand it, the two versions where made to better work together with different types of equipment. And just maybe in many applications the 4060 is better that the 4061.  (There is another difference in that you loose 10dB in max sound level, but both values are well into terribly painful sound levels).

Gunnar

Yes I know the 4060 very well.
I had the DPA4060 and got extreme distortion 5m in front of stacks ...was taping a gothic-rock-metal band...fortunately I used earplugs.
Personally I believe the irivers line-in got overloaded by the hot signal coming from the 4060s at this extremely loud show.
I don´t thinks the mics distorted BUT the analog line-in of my rockboxed iriver which also showed problems when using high sensitivity HLSC(MKE40s).

The R09 line-in can handle considerably higher SPL than the irivers combined(mic/line-in).

For taping more silent shows I´d use my DAP 4061 on MIC-IN of the R09-HR or an external preamp on line-in OR my SP-CMC-8 on line-in/mic-in.
Plenty of options to choose from .

So I can use a 4060 > R-09HR Line In in a loud (club/bar) show?
You have an interesting point right there. I was under the impression that the 4060 distorted at high SPL by itself.
Correct me here if I'm wrong, friend 

Yes, sure you can but don´t use an iriver .

DPA 4060 are about +10db hotter than 4061.

I taped THE POLICE with 4060s and the iriver and it came out great without any distortion.
Was standing at the soundboard in a 10.000 people indoor arena.
Rockbox recording screen showed me only +4db gain at the end of the show(0 gain is unity and all below is attenuation).

When my mics(or the irivers line-in) distorted, the internal gain was set to 0db by "safety-clip".

There is a great sounding TOOL-show on dimeadozen.org, taped with 4060ies.

[Dede2002]

I guess you already know that the 4060 is exactly the same mic, but with 10.5 dB higher sensitivity. As I understand it, the two versions where made to better work together with different types of equipment. And just maybe in many applications the 4060 is better that the 4061.  (There is another difference in that you loose 10dB in max sound level, but both values are well into terribly painful sound levels).

Gunnar

Yes I know the 4060 very well.
I had the DPA4060 and got extreme distortion 5m in front of stacks ...was taping a gothic-rock-metal band...fortunately I used earplugs.
Personally I believe the irivers line-in got overloaded by the hot signal coming from the 4060s at this extremely loud show.
I don´t thinks the mics distorted BUT the analog line-in of my rockboxed iriver which also showed problems when using high sensitivity HLSC(MKE40s).

The R09 line-in can handle considerably higher SPL than the irivers combined(mic/line-in).

For taping more silent shows I´d use my DAP 4061 on MIC-IN of the R09-HR or an external preamp on line-in OR my SP-CMC-8 on line-in/mic-in.
Plenty of options to choose from .

So I can use a 4060 > R-09HR Line In in a loud (club/bar) show?
You have an interesting point right there. I was under the impression that the 4060 distorted at high SPL by itself.
Correct me here if I'm wrong, friend 

Yes, sure you can but don´t use an iriver .

DPA 4060 are about +10db hotter than 4061.

I taped THE POLICE with 4060s and the iriver and it came out great without any distortion.
Was standing at the soundboard in a 10.000 people indoor arena.
Rockbox recording screen showed me only +4db gain at the end of the show(0 gain is unity and all below is attenuation).

When my mics(or the irivers line-in) distorted, the internal gain was set to 0db by "safety-clip".

There is a great sounding TOOL-show on dimeadozen.org, taped with 4060ies.

Thanks.
So distortion with the 4060 is not due to the mics not be able to handle high SPL, but to the fact that, being hot mics, they might cause distortion with some recorders (like iRivers). Is that it?
Since I don't have an iRiver and do not tape mind freaking loud ghotic metal stuff is it safe to assume that I can run 4060>BB>Line In R09HR for other loud stuff?

[Arni99]

Yes, as I told you before, even THE POLICE was no problem taping close from the soundboard and not in front of the stacks with my iriver.
DPA4060+bbox(or peamp) =>line-in of your r09hr would fit your needs perfectly.
You´ll NEVER EVER gonna sell these 4060s HAHA!

If you go for DPA4060, don´t forget to check how they are terminated:
Either standard DPA microdots => then you need the "MPS 6030" DPA power supply
OR
3.5mm modded like my DPA4061 => you can use your 9100 preamp or any bbox with 3.5mm mic-input.


I modded my DPA 4061 ....hard work choosing tiny dpa-conductors as 1st soldering-experience HAHA.

Get several 3.5mm stereo plugs in case you´ll do it yourself .

[Dede2002]

Yes, as I told you before, even THE POLICE was no problem taping close from the soundboard and not in front of the stacks with my iriver.
DPA4060+bbox(or peamp) =>line-in of your r09hr would fit your needs perfectly.
You´ll NEVER EVER gonna sell these 4060s HAHA!

If you go for DPA4060, don´t forget to check how they are terminated:
Either standard DPA microdots => then you need the "MPS 6030" DPA power supply
OR
3.5mm modded like my DPA4061 => you can use your 9100 preamp or any bbox with 3.5mm mic-input.


I modded my DPA 4061 ....hard work choosing tiny dpa-conductors as 1st soldering-experience HAHA.

Get several 3.5mm stereo plugs in case you´ll do it yourself .

No! 
I would never try to mess with those tinny things. If you ever see me holding a solder iron, please call the police, paramedics etc.

[Church-Audio]

I guess you already know that the 4060 is exactly the same mic, but with 10.5 dB higher sensitivity. As I understand it, the two versions where made to better work together with different types of equipment. And just maybe in many applications the 4060 is better that the 4061.  (There is another difference in that you loose 10dB in max sound level, but both values are well into terribly painful sound levels).

Gunnar

Yes I know the 4060 very well.
I had the DPA4060 and got extreme distortion 5m in front of stacks ...was taping a gothic-rock-metal band...fortunately I used earplugs.
Personally I believe the irivers line-in got overloaded by the hot signal coming from the 4060s at this extremely loud show.
I don´t thinks the mics distorted BUT the analog line-in of my rockboxed iriver which also showed problems when using high sensitivity HLSC(MKE40s).

The R09 line-in can handle considerably higher SPL than the irivers combined(mic/line-in).

For taping more silent shows I´d use my DAP 4061 on MIC-IN of the R09-HR or an external preamp on line-in OR my SP-CMC-8 on line-in/mic-in.
Plenty of options to choose from .

So I can use a 4060 > R-09HR Line In in a loud (club/bar) show?
You have an interesting point right there. I was under the impression that the 4060 distorted at high SPL by itself.
Correct me here if I'm wrong, friend 

Yes, sure you can but don´t use an iriver .

DPA 4060 are about +10db hotter than 4061.

I taped THE POLICE with 4060s and the iriver and it came out great without any distortion.
Was standing at the soundboard in a 10.000 people indoor arena.
Rockbox recording screen showed me only +4db gain at the end of the show(0 gain is unity and all below is attenuation).

When my mics(or the irivers line-in) distorted, the internal gain was set to 0db by "safety-clip".

There is a great sounding TOOL-show on dimeadozen.org, taped with 4060ies.

Thanks.
So distortion with the 4060 is not due to the mics not be able to handle high SPL, but to the fact that, being hot mics, they might cause distortion with some recorders (like iRivers). Is that it?
Since I don't have an iRiver and do not tape mind freaking loud ghotic metal stuff is it safe to assume that I can run 4060>BB>Line In R09HR for other loud stuff?

No thats not it. The problem is the fet overloads in the mic because your asking it to provide more gain. So hence the reason why it overloads sooner. The 61 has less internal gain that means more Max spl and less distortion.

Chris

[Arni99]

4061 is about 10db less sensitive than 4060.