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Author Topic: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement  (Read 2071 times)

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Offline Gedit

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Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« on: July 05, 2006, 04:49:23 PM »
I was asked to provide sound reinforcement AND tape a rock band's performance at a community center mainly because of my taping experience.

Here's some info about the venue and equipment ... any suggestions welcome.

Venue:

2400 square-foot rectangle (80' long x 30' wide) with cinderblock walls on three sides and floor-to-ceiling windows on the fourth (long) side. Drop ceiling. Lots of wall hangings so it's not so much of an echo chamber as it might seem.

Rig - PA

ONYX 1640 FOH (16-channel)
Peavey RQ-2314 SOH (12-channel)
1000 watt main amp
500 watt monitor amp
Main Speakers w/stands (2)
Monitors (4)

Rig - Taping

ONYX 1640 w/firewire > IBM workstation w/1gb RAM > Cubase SE

Microphone selection (looking for suggestions about where to use what, other than the drum mics)

2 AT4040
8 Behringer B1-Pro
2 Behringer B2-Pro
8 AT Pro 37
1 Sansom 8-mic drum kit
2 Sansom c02





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RebelRebel

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 05:12:26 PM »
instrumentation???

Offline Gedit

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 05:17:06 PM »
^ instrumentation

DOH .. yeah that would be helpful wouldn't it?

They show seven monitors, but we're going to make it work with four.

Stage Plot --->

Instruments

1.   GUITAR AMP #1 - STG. R
2.     GUITAR AMP #2 – STG R
2.           GUITAR D.I. - STG. R.
3.   KEYBOARD AMP - CTR. STAGE
4.   BASS RIG – STG L
5.    GUITAR AMP #3 – STG L
6.    CONGA #1 – STG R
7.       CONGA #2 – STG R
8.    LUCKY VOCAL MIC - STG R
9.    MEGHAN VOCAL MIC - STG. CTR.
10.   ELEANOR VOCAL MIC – STG. L
11.   SNARE
12.   RACK
13.   FLOOR #1
14.   FLOOR #2
15.    HI-HAT
16.   KICK DRUM

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Offline anodyne33

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 05:51:19 PM »
That's a lot of instrumentation to cover with 1k to the front and 500 on the stage. 1st thing to do is tell the band that if they can't control their stage volume they are not going to be able to hear and furthermore it's going to sound like shit out front. If you're going to go multitrach out of the console make sure pay more attention to the gain before getting a level at the fader. Get a DI from the bass and keys and just let them use their amps for stage volume. Micing an instrument that you can get a DI from is insane. Drums just need a kick and snare (and really you probably won't have to use the snare in the front, and the kick isn't going to give you much with pole speakers -I have a litte over 1k just for the sub at the bar I work at-), everything else will come through ALL of the other open mics on stage just fine. The only mics i've used out of what you have are the 4040s, i'd say use them for either percussion and a drum overhead (if you've got enough chennels, but it sounds like you're a little limited there) or throw them on the two most important guitar cabs.

If you have any other questions feel free to as me or SuperDave... he's an old FOH guy from way back that REALLY knows his shit. I know there are a few other sound guys here that will hopefully have something constructive to add.

And... a good soudcheck (at LEAST a full song) is worth it's weight in gold.

shane
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Offline Gedit

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2006, 10:18:39 PM »
thanks for the suggestions shane ... hoping others will add their .02


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Offline anodyne33

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 11:33:50 AM »
I asked Dave about it (SuperDave) and he saw your post and my response and didn't really have anything to add. After the band I had last night I have to reitterate (sp?) that your best fried in this situation is going to be a nice long soundcheck.
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Offline SuperDave

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2006, 01:14:59 PM »
I'm here, and you're right, a good long 20 - 30 minute soundcheck in an empty room will help you with any problems you may encounter.  Try to keep all amped instruments down to a dull roar on stage and hopefully the drummer isn't a basher.  From looking at the diagram, I'd see the only possible problem would be the stage right guitars bleeding into the percussion mics.  Be mindful of your micing techniques and you should be alright.  I don't know how they are about stage placement but aiming those amps toward center stage instead of straight ahead may help too.  Good luck!       
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Offline rokpunk

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Re: Help - Live Recording and Sound Reinforcement
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2006, 08:25:30 AM »
Wow, you don't have a lot of PA to work with.....
Running 4 mons off of one 500w power amp is going to result in underpowered monitor mixes. Not only does that lead to distortion, but it is bad for the speakers. You didn'
t mention any EQ's in your list of gear. How will you control feedback in these monitor mixes? And how will you shape the house mix with no EQ?

As for the mics themselves, I am not familiar with the Samson mics (although, in my experience, Samson = p00p), but I'd say, stick the condensers on the percussion, and use dynamic mics on the guitar amps/vocals. Don't bother with drum overheads as all you will end up with is bleed from the rest of the stage. In a small enough room with a loud drummer, you might just wanna do a kick snare overhead setup and call it a day. Get the overhead right over the kit...not way up in the air.

I like to have bands turn their amps to face themselves instead of the traditional approach that most bands take by aiming their amps at the back of their knees. Small combo amps can be leaned back and placed in front of the guitarist(s), aiming at their ears instead of the back of their legs. Bigger stacks of amps can be turned a full 180 degrees and mic'ed from the backside. Take a DI line from the bass player, don't bother micing his amp. Same goes for keyboards.

It's all about stage volume.....get the band to keep their stage levels down. Aiming their amps at themselves instead of at the crowd will help. If they are all cranked up to 11 on stage, the 500w amp driving 4 monitor mixes is going to be useless.

Soundchecks are nice and all, but a soundcheck isn't going to make or break the show. The sound will be completly different when you get 250 people in the room and the humidity and tempature go up. I usually get a line check and use the first song to dial in the mix. A good engineer should be able to get the mix at least in the ballpark with a simple line check. Only put into the monitors what the band asks for. Adding guitars and bass to the mons is only going to make things worse. Use them for vocals exculsivly unless someone asks for something else. The only exception is for the drummer, who, assuming he is on his own mix, should get all the vocals, his kick, the bass guitar, and maybe some guitar/keys if he needs it. If everyone else has an amp, they should be using that as a monitor, not pumping it through the wedges.

My best suggestion here is to have whomever owns the PA system buy some decent mics. If you put shit in, you get shit out. Buy some Shure Sm57's and 58's, a decent kick drum mic, and a few DI boxes. The 57's will cover just about any instrument you encounter. A pair of condensers are nice to have around too, but I would concider them secondary to decent dynamic mics. Oh, and get some EQ's in line so that you can actually adjust for feedback/standing waves, etc...

Best of luck.
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