Topic: Cable Break in article

[Shawn]

Audio Cable "Break In" Science or Psychological?
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/Cable-Breakin.html

[OOK]

Interestingly, the New Scientists recently commented on the London Heathrow Hi Fi Show, saying that among the cables selling for up to £30,000 for 6 metres, they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. The orange cable to the speakers looked oddly familiar. When asked about it, Tony Faulkner, the recording engineer demonstrating them (who'd used the speakers as monitors while recording Saint-Saen's complete works for piano & orchestra, Gramophone's Record of the Year), said of the cables:

"Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..."  - New Scientist Magazine

Like I said in another thread copper is copper.

[bgalizio]

Interestingly, the New Scientists recently commented on the London Heathrow Hi Fi Show, saying that among the cables selling for up to £30,000 for 6 metres, they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. The orange cable to the speakers looked oddly familiar. When asked about it, Tony Faulkner, the recording engineer demonstrating them (who'd used the speakers as monitors while recording Saint-Saen's complete works for piano & orchestra, Gramophone's Record of the Year), said of the cables:

"Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..."  - New Scientist Magazine

Like I said in another thread copper is copper.

 

[F.O.Bean]

Interestingly, the New Scientists recently commented on the London Heathrow Hi Fi Show, saying that among the cables selling for up to £30,000 for 6 metres, they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. The orange cable to the speakers looked oddly familiar. When asked about it, Tony Faulkner, the recording engineer demonstrating them (who'd used the speakers as monitors while recording Saint-Saen's complete works for piano & orchestra, Gramophone's Record of the Year), said of the cables:

"Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..."  - New Scientist Magazine

Like I said in another thread copper is copper.

 

thats awesome

[Phil]

Any retail cable I buy over $100 no, $30 should already be "broken in" by the manufacturer. IMHO. Wouldn't the high-end retailers want their cables to sound as good as they can be right out of the box? A simple "break in" would not put them out of business and make their cable sound better then the competition right out of the box.  So maybe it really does not make much of a difference? 

[cshepherd]

Interestingly, the New Scientists recently commented on the London Heathrow Hi Fi Show, saying that among the cables selling for up to £30,000 for 6 metres, they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. The orange cable to the speakers looked oddly familiar. When asked about it, Tony Faulkner, the recording engineer demonstrating them (who'd used the speakers as monitors while recording Saint-Saen's complete works for piano & orchestra, Gramophone's Record of the Year), said of the cables:

"Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..."  - New Scientist Magazine

Like I said in another thread copper is copper.

When Dale and I were at CES in January, we walked into many rooms that had bad sound (Manley and Channel Islands Audio come to mind).  Did we go up to the guy and say, "hey, what's wrong with your system, why does it sound like shite?".  No, we walked out of the room and said, "geez, where'd that extra '0' in the price come from?".  If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

BTW, B&W use Van den Hul wire for their internal wiring  So does Sonus Faber and a host of other manufacturers.

If copper is copper, then wine is wine and beer is beer.  Anybody up for some Schlitz?

Chris

[OOK]

If copper is copper, then wine is wine and beer is beer.  Anybody up for some Schlitz?

wine is not always wine, it can change into vinigar and as for beer and wine well they usually turn into piss. 

Your analogy doesn't hold.  pure copper is pure copper.  Your can't change the molecular structure of a pure element.  Sure there are people who want to believe this.  But if this where the case then we would be changing  lead into gold.  But the reality is it simply can't be done.  Pure is pure, thats it.  Now companies come up with all kind of ways to to say their copper wire is different.  The only thing that is different that I can come with is the way one company may shield its copper ie: teflon, pvc, nylon, cotton, steel braid, "insert your method here" but the wire itself is the same.  Its all about marketing folks. If one wants to buy a 600$ mic cable have at it.  I am just tired of these comapnies stating their copper is the best.  I don't care how you melt, mold, bend, stretch, whind, twist it, copper is copper.

And I will take a ice cold fresh Schlitz over nothing any day of the week.   

[cshepherd]

There are different grades of copper.  Quality of copper varies by the extrusion process.  Overall cable performance is also effected by the zillions of different cable geometries that people use.  It's not all about marketing.  It might be for folks like Monster and Audioquest, but companies like Van den Hul and Atlas don't have a marketing plan...other than word-of-mouth.  There's less than 10 dealers in the entire country for either of these cable manufacturers.  I'm not trying to start a 10 page meltdown here.  I'm merely trying to differentiate  our cables from the mass market BS you find at Best Buy / Circuit City.  Our entry level cables are better than anything available at the big box stores.  I have heard my share of bad wire that sells for big $$.  I understand where the disbelief comes from.  It sucks to get ripped off, but not all expensive wire is a rip off.  There's a great read that Lil' Kim Jon-Il posted about someone on Audiogon going though a major cable experimentation.  Below is one of the points the guy made after going through all this experimentation to find his ultimate set of DIY cables. 

from http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=67089.msg910689#msg910689

“Cable manufactures are overcharging for their cables.” Yes they are crazy expensive but I can not say they are over charging. My simple little cable takes hours to build, and if a guy is to market, travel, inventory, purchase the equipment needed to produce a repeatable product… then I’m not sure they are so inflated. Yes I agree it’s silly, but my design has about $655 in materials, (approx. $300 in 30ga wire, $285 in 24ga wire, $40 RCA’s and $30 in cotton sleeves) maybe eight hours, so what is that worth? If any comment is true it would be the low and mid priced cables is the scam. Charging a few hundred dollars for a $25 value is the rip off. The top end is closer to a bargain. So yes they are all pricy, buy not out of line if a business is expected to make a profit.

And I will take a ice cold fresh Schlitz over nothing any day of the week. 

It's good to see we agree on some things  .

Chris

[Shawn]

this is a bit off topic, but not entirely....

chris I'd love to hear some comps of your mic cables with cables in the $100-$200 range.

[F.O.Bean]

this is a bit off topic, but not entirely....

chris I'd love to hear some comps of your mic cables with cables in the $100-$200 range.

like our very own leegeddy/toddr/greatgumbino cables

[Shawn]

this is a bit off topic, but not entirely....

chris I'd love to hear some comps of your mic cables with cables in the $100-$200 range.

like our very own leegeddy/toddr/greatgumbino cables

exactly what I was thinking. I'm curious how a $125 set of cables stacks up against a $1900 set of cables.

[cshepherd]

Hi Shawn,
I haven't had the opportunity to do a direct cable comp yet, but I have been collecting sources on the Widespread Panic NW run of shows for a rig comparison.  FWIW, Jeff Betts tookThe Orchids to Washington for the two Panic shows up there.  His recording from 7/15 was AKG 480/ck63>Orchids>722 for the first set and AKG 480/ck63>Orchids>V3 (aes/ebu out)>722 for the second set.  The first set is actually damn good, but his second set recording from that night is one of the best auds I've ever heard. 
The Orchids are brand new.  We bought the mic cables based on our experiences with The Orchid rca cables in our hi-fi systems.  At this point, we're just trying to get some tapes made with them to see what they can do.  I liked them with the 184>722 rig, especially considering how light the rig bag is and how fast you can set up and tear down.  When we put the V2 in the chain, the low end got that last bit of 'ummph' that we weren't getting with the 722 pre's.  Jeff's 483>Orchid>722 recording reinforces that notion as well.  If I was recording an acoustic guitar and vocal, I'm not sure I'd use the V2.  For rock and roll, the V2 is the bomb.  If anyone's curious, I'd recommed downloading our 184s>Orchids>722 tape from Widespread Panic in Portland, Oregon  http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=27126.  There are some nice comments made about the sound quality on the thread.  We were the last tapers to arrive, the first to leave and as far as financial investment goes, even with the $1900 cables our rig was far from being the most expensive rig there.

While we're on the topic of comp tapes, we ran the Quantum Symphony EMI/RFI stabilizers (www.quantumQRT.com) at SCI for the Saturday night show last weekend.  Interestingly enough, the Saturday tapes sound far superior to either the Friday or Sunday tapes (which sound like mud and lack dynamics).  The Symphony is a 9v device so we modded their power cables and powered them with a 10 year 9v battery (for smoke detectors).  I would highly recommend checking out Quantum's site and reading through their customer comments regarding the Symphony and Symphony Pro.  The improvement on sound that is described by their customers can be heard on the tapes.  Better dynamics, better clarity throughout the spectrum, better definition on the low end.  Cheese's PA downright sucked up here in the northwest.  Everybody in the TS was bitching about the sound on Friday.  These boxes are the real deal.  Everybody that has any experience with them will say the same thing.  It's a relatively new technology that we are really excited about.  We'll be posting a torrent for folks to check out later this week.

Chris

[F.O.Bean]

I haven't had the opportunity to do a direct cable comp yet, but I have been collecting sources on the Widespread Panic NW run of shows for a rig comparison.  FWIW, Jeff Betts tookThe Orchids to Washington for the two Panic shows up there.  His recording from 7/15 was AKG 480/ck63>Orchids>722 for the first set and AKG 480/ck63>Orchids>V3 (aes/ebu out)>722 for the second set.  The first set is actually damn good, but his second set recording from that night is one of the best auds I've ever heard. 
The Orchids are brand new.  We bought the mic cables based on our experiences with The Orchid rca cables in our hi-fi systems.  At this point, we're just trying to get some tapes made with them to see what they can do.  I liked them with the 184>722 rig, especially considering how light the rig bag is and how fast you can set up and tear down.  When we put the V2 in the chain, the low end got that last bit of 'ummph' that we weren't getting with the 722 pre's.  Jeff's 483>Orchid>722 recording reinforces that notion as well.  If I was recording an acoustic guitar and vocal, I'm not sure I'd use the V2.  For rock and roll, the V2 is the bomb.  If anyone's curious, I'd recommed downloading our 184s>Orchids>722 tape from Widespread Panic in Portland, Oregon  http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=27126.  There are some nice comments made about the sound quality on the thread.  We were the last tapers to arrive, the first to leave and as far as financial investment goes, even with the $1900 cables our rig was far from being the most expensive rig there.

While we're on the topic of comp tapes, we ran the Quantum Symphony EMI/RFI stabilizers (www.quantumQRT.com) at SCI for the Saturday night show last weekend.  Interestingly enough, the Saturday tapes sound far superior to either the Friday or Sunday tapes (which sound like mud and lack dynamics).  The Symphony is a 9v device so we modded their power cables and powered them with a 10 year 9v battery (for smoke detectors).  I would highly recommend checking out Quantum's site and reading through their customer comments regarding the Symphony and Symphony Pro.  The improvement on sound that is described by their customers can be heard on the tapes.  Better dynamics, better clarity throughout the spectrum, better definition on the low end.  Cheese's PA downright sucked up here in the northwest.  Everybody in the TS was bitching about the sound on Friday.  These boxes are the real deal.  Everybody that has any experience with them will say the same thing.  It's a relatively new technology that we are really excited about.  We'll be posting a torrent for folks to check out later this week.

Chris

are any of them DC powered or are they all AC powered and have to be modded? what type of connections do they have?

do they really clean things up that much? im interested in those

[cshepherd]

Hey Bean,
The Symphony is 9v DC powered and comes with a wall wart.  The Symhony Pro is fitted with a traditional IEC plug for a/c power.  Nobody's ever tried using these on Pro Audio gear, much less in a tapers section.  We have been talking about rigging our Symphonys with battery power for quite some time.  When Dale and I were doing sound for Reeble Jar last fall, we used a 20 amp RT-800 and a Symphony Pro on stage with the two Symphonys at the FOH desk.  We were getting feedback like "best sound in this club in the year and a half I've been booking gigs here".  It was String Cheese's atrocious sound on Friday that motivated us to make the battery mod.  Everybody we talked to Saturday night agreed the sound was much better, and the tapes show that statement to be true.  It's not just our tapes, your buddy Greg Lance taped from the same spot all three nights (1st row TS, dfc).  His Saturday recording was his best from the weekend as well.  We would have brought them on Sunday had I woken up in time for the show Sunday night   .

We are authorized dealers and will beat Quantum's online price.  We'll also be talking with Bill at Quantum about the possibility of a battery powered Symphony Pro, which is 2x as stong as the original Symphony that we use.

Time to eat some homemade pizza pie.

Chris

[scb]

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

[scb]

i was just being difficult, but maybe no one did notice it...

[cshepherd]

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

The speaker cables may have gone unnoticed, but I bet most noticed the bad sound. 

Chris

[Stagger]

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

The speaker cables may have gone unnoticed, but I bet most noticed the bad sound. 

Chris

Or not...

"they found Quad demonstrating their latest speakers to great enthusiasm. "

[RebelRebel]

Tony Faulkner—engineer of about a third of the best-sounding orchestral recordings of the last twenty years—used the Black-and-Decker equivalent to hook up his Quad 989s at the recent Heathrow Show in England—“They are made from good, thick copper wire, look nice and sound good to me”—and that the designer of what is by provable standards one of the half dozen or so most accurate loudspeakers ever made uses and recommends it all the time.

I dont know..if anyone has golden ears, Tony Faulkner does..he is one of the guys I look up to most in the recording industry.

[cshepherd]

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

The speaker cables may have gone unnoticed, but I bet most noticed the bad sound. 

Chris

Maybe 'bad sound' was a little harsh.  They are Quads after all.  The article doesn't contradict anything about cable break in.  It sounds like they forgot to bring their speaker cables to the show.   Tony Faulkner said "they sound good to me" and "no one in the audience has noticed".  All that gear and "sounds good to me" was the best they could quote for their article regarding the magnificient Quad speakers.

Chris

[RebelRebel]

He also said the designer of the Quads uses it all the time...

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

The speaker cables may have gone unnoticed, but I bet most noticed the bad sound. 

Chris

Maybe 'bad sound' was a little harsh.  They are Quads after all.  The article doesn't contradict anything about cable break in.  It sounds like they forgot to bring their speaker cables to the show.   Tony Faulkner said "they sound good to me" and "no one in the audience has noticed".  All that gear and "sounds good to me" was the best they could quote for their article regarding the magnificient Quad speakers.

Chris

[ghellquist]

I sometimes see this anti-wrinkle cream ads on the TV. Every time I think that it would be very easy to do an AB test, just spread the goo on one side of the face and not on the other. IF they really worked there would be a difference.

I also think that it would be very easy to do an AB test on mic cables. Simply use two matched mics placed really close and run them through two different cables. After a while, switch cables so you could judge how much of the difference is from the mics, and how much from the cable. If there really was a large difference it would be obvious.

But, well, the never do proper AB tests on the creams. What about the cables?

Gunnar

[cshepherd]

He also said the designer of the Quads uses it all the time...

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

The speaker cables may have gone unnoticed, but I bet most noticed the bad sound. 

Chris

Maybe 'bad sound' was a little harsh.  They are Quads after all.  The article doesn't contradict anything about cable break in.  It sounds like they forgot to bring their speaker cables to the show.   Tony Faulkner said "they sound good to me" and "no one in the audience has noticed".  All that gear and "sounds good to me" was the best they could quote for their article regarding the magnificient Quad speakers.

Chris

I didn't read that anywhere.  This was all I saw regarding the Quad room...

    "Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from  {1} good, thick copper wire, {2} look nice and {3} sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..."  - New Scientist Magazine

Tony Faulkner stated they were bought just prior to the show.  He used the speakers while working for Gramaphone, but I don't see where they state any previous experience with the speaker cables.  They weren't even speaker cables, they were power cords.  The whole article smacks of [edit for poor choice of words] bias.  Notice how sound was third most important attribute.

Chris

[RebelRebel]

and that the designer of what is by provable standards one of the half dozen or so most accurate loudspeakers ever made uses and recommends it(the black and decker) all the time.

He also said the designer of the Quads uses it all the time...

If Quad was running with speaker cable from a black and decker extention cord...people noticed.  They just didn't say anything. 

And you know this how?

It's possible that they didn't notice...

The speaker cables may have gone unnoticed, but I bet most noticed the bad sound. 

Chris

Maybe 'bad sound' was a little harsh.  They are Quads after all.  The article doesn't contradict anything about cable break in.  It sounds like they forgot to bring their speaker cables to the show.   Tony Faulkner said "they sound good to me" and "no one in the audience has noticed".  All that gear and "sounds good to me" was the best they could quote for their article regarding the magnificient Quad speakers.

Chris

I didn't read that anywhere.  This was all I saw regarding the Quad room...

    "Yes, they would look familiar if you have a garden. Before the show opened we went over the road to the DIY superstore and bought one of those £20 extension leads that Black & Decker sells for electric hedge-cutters. They are made from  {1} good, thick copper wire, {2} look nice and {3} sound good to me. The show's been running for three days and no one in the audience has noticed..."  - New Scientist Magazine

Tony Faulkner stated they were bought just prior to the show.  He used the speakers while working for Gramaphone, but I don't see where they state any previous experience with the speaker cables.  They weren't even speaker cables, they were power cords.  The whole article smacks of retardedness.  Notice how sound was third most important attribute.

Chris

[cshepherd]

Well, Roy Gandy of Rega makes great turntables and puts molded plastic ICs on all of them.  He's supposedly not a cable person either.  All any of this means is that the guy who makes Quad speakers isn't into expensive cable and that it sounds good to Tony Faulkner...and that they were willing to go to show with black and decker power cords on their speakers.  They didn't get any opinions on the subject from those running expensive cables at the show.  Not exactly great journalism...more like propaganda.

Thanks for clarifying, Teddy.

Chris

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I heard my speakers sounding like a Black & Decker, once, for about 5 minutes. Never again will I enjoy that splendor of sound.

You didn't accidently hook up the speaker end to the amp did you?  I'm only half making a joke.  That HD cord everyone was buzzing about was reported to be directional. 


I'm still loving the APs.