Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: So How Does It Sound?  (Read 6971 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
So How Does It Sound?
« on: July 07, 2006, 11:24:03 AM »
I have just finished a run of recordings of a varied concert series, all in a single hall, using various mics and recorders.  A friend of mine suggested there might be some interest in a brief recap of results (we have done a lot of comparison listening on various equipment, mostly headphones for me but a high end audiophile system for him and another friend as well).  So here goes, if anything is clear it is that the evaluation is in part quite a subjective business, once you get to a certain level of equipment.

The concerts were classical chamber music and piano recitals.  I taped all of them with two setups: one was mic-in to a SD722 at 24/96, mostly using baffled omnis but also an LSD2 in XY cardioid mode for piano/violin recitals.  The omnis I used were Schoeps CMC6xt 2H, Josephson C617 with Microtech Gefell MK221 caps, Sanken CO-100K, and DPA 4052s; I tried three baffles, a Jecklin disk, a Schneider disk, and the LiteGuy baffle from Sonic Studios.  The second setup was usually a set of DPA4060s worn croakie style, into an MMA6000 preamp into an R1 at 24/44.1, but in June I fed the 4060s>MMA6000 into a Sony D1 at 24/96.  When running the D1 I twice also fed the tape-out from the 722 into the R1 at 24/44.1, to see how the R1 handled the bigger bucks mics.

I think it is clear that the bigger bucks mics give a more accurate and detailed product, and also that it is very hard to distinguish them from each other, at least in this type of music.  I think I like the Schoeps and Josephson best for piano, but will have to continue the experiment in the fall when this concert series starts up again.  However, the better stereo imaging on the headworn DPA4060s often led to recordings that my friends preferred.  I was pretty much in agreement for the Jecklin and Schneider disks, where the stereo separation is effective but not natural.  The LiteGuy baffle was a whole lot better than the other two baffles, but my friend still usually liked the 4060 versions better; I preferred the Schoeps/Josephson/LiteGuy on all counts, accuracy, clarity and stereo.  On violin/piano, the large diaphragm LSD2 gave superb results, once I figured out how to place the mic stand so that the piano didn’t drown out the violin.  For the baffled omni setups, the placement wasn’t so sensitive.  In most cases the mics on the stand were from two to five feet in front of my head baffled mics and about 3 feet higher.  The R1 gave decent results with the 4060s>MMA6000, but sounded rather harsh with the output from the 722.  I don’t know if this was the fault of the R1 or the tape-out of the 722.  The 722 manual claims that the tape-out is the same as the master output bus, so I assume the harshness, compared to both the 4060s>MMA6000>D1 and 722, was simply the R1 not liking a too detailed mic pickup.  The 722, on the other hand, does not like even moderate clipping of the sort the R1 tolerates easily.

I also burned DVD-Audios of the 722 files, as well as CDs dithered and downsampled in Wavelab.  I do not have high grade DVD-Audio playback capability, but my friend with the high-end system sometimes found the original 24/96 files superior, other times about the same as the CDed version.

I think the results are far from conclusive, not only because the mic stand setup was always a few feet from my head but because playback on different equipment, or even on the same equipment to different listeners, had us choosing differently.  Worse yet, the same listener on the same equipment had different reactions when in different moods. 

What I think I now know: LiteGuy baffle beats Jecklin and Schneider.  Don’t put mic stand too near piano, it doesn’t sound natural at least in this hall.  Listen to rehearsal on in-ear monitors to get decent balance.  The SONY D1 will do seamless new file start at 2GB limit (if you remember to shut off “Zero Crossing” in Wavelab when joining them up!!).

The hall in question is an odd one, stadium seating inside a hemispherical domed lecture hall.  I also recorded a chamber recital inside a rectangular boxy hall with stadium seating and found the recorded sound, though realistic, rather tubby, especially where a double bass was featured.  This is the only time I tried adding a bit of reverb, it took out the tubbiness (and my friend said gave the recording a commercial gloss) but we all ended up preferring the original flawed version.  Purists.

Jeff

Offline BC

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Gender: Male
  • Bongo Bongo
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2006, 01:29:08 PM »
good stuff, thanks for sharing.

+t


Might be interesting to compare spaced omnis to a baffled setup. Just thinking out loud...

Oh yeah, I was reading an article recently about this baffle system, pretty crazy!!

http://www.kimber.com/IsoMike/

« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 01:36:38 PM by BC »
In: DPA4022>V3>Microtracker/D8

Out: Morrison ELAD>Adcom GFA555mkII>Martin Logan Aerius i

Offline muj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1544
  • Gender: Male
  • Certifiable Nevaton Fluffer
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2006, 01:46:22 PM »
how do you like the sanken?

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 01:56:16 PM »
how do you like the sanken?

I think they're very good, but so far I prefer the Shoeps and Josephson.  I've only run the Sanken 4-5 times, and mostly for piano, so I'll be trying them on strings at least next fall.  What I need to do is run them head-to-head, so to speak, into a 744 or two 722s, but I haven't got the gear or go-ahead for a more extensive set-up in this hall.  Same on spaced vs. baffled omnis, though I might be able to work a second tripod in (or some really long arms for my Manfrotto).  I have a friend in Boston who uses spaced omnis (Schoeps MK2S) for piano and gets good results, though I'm pretty much a fan of quasi-binaural via baffles.

Jeff

Offline muj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1544
  • Gender: Male
  • Certifiable Nevaton Fluffer
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2006, 02:16:54 PM »
how do you like the sanken?

I think they're very good, but so far I prefer the Shoeps and Josephson.  I've only run the Sanken 4-5 times, and mostly for piano, so I'll be trying them on strings at least next fall.  What I need to do is run them head-to-head, so to speak, into a 744 or two 722s, but I haven't got the gear or go-ahead for a more extensive set-up in this hall.  Same on spaced vs. baffled omnis, though I might be able to work a second tripod in (or some really long arms for my Manfrotto).  I have a friend in Boston who uses spaced omnis (Schoeps MK2S) for piano and gets good results, though I'm pretty much a fan of quasi-binaural via baffles.

Jeff


try to get  modified gefell A63 adapters and pair of MK102 capsules, these are the 1 inch capsules (more directivity in Hf and more resolution in LF), MAYBE  David josephson has a pair...

love the gefells... >:D

Offline noam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 185
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2006, 06:50:10 PM »
I spend many hours listening and enjoying Jeff’s tapes. I think of the differences of how the various setups sound in terms of soundimaging, quality of tone colors and degree of listening fatigue. My responses to his tapes are not consistent. They depend on my mood, the equipment I own at various times and what I’ve been listening to lately. To the degree there is anything consistent in what I hear, I would say this: the DPA’s take the top honors for stunning, breathtaking, mind-blowing earth-shattering soundimaging. It’s like you are right there in the hall, the three-dimensionality is startling and very tangible. From Jeff’s descriptions of the placement of the mics it looks like this magical soundimaging is an intrinsic characteristic of the DPA’s and not a function of placement. Maybe it has to do with their high-end bump, because reflected sound is more high-frequencies and the reflected sound is what gives you the feeling of the ambiance of the hall. OTOH there were occasions that the DPA’s sounded distorted – edgy and trebly. Leonard Lombardo from Sonic Studios claims the DPA’s are colored and therefore give inconsistent results because the mic is causing an effect that does not always compliment the subject/recording conditions – I don’t know, maybe there is truth to that. The DPA’s also take top honors in zero listening fatigue – very light on my ears.

The Schoeps CMC6xt 2H have consistently  the best richness of tone colors, with great mid-bass and therefore a wonderful sense of presence, but that is sometimes offset by flat soundimaging. They can be a little heavier in terms of listening fatigue. I found the Josephsons not dramatically different from the DPA’s as far as color, but slightly cleaner and more focused. I did not like the Sankens in a few recordings but my reaction to them has been very inconsistent.

All this pertains of course only to piano/chamber music, mainly in smallish venues. Other performance situations are a completely different story.

Noam
 



Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2006, 10:36:41 PM »
try to get  modified gefell A63 adapters and pair of MK102 capsules, these are the 1 inch capsules (more directivity in Hf and more resolution in LF), MAYBE  David josephson has a pair...

love the gefells... >:D

Spent some time this afternoon speaking with David Josephson about these caps.  I'm not sure they suit my needs (not overly bright hall, some background audience noise and airflow system hum), but they do sound interesting.  Although this is likely to cost me a lot I didn't intend to spend, +T for the recommendation.

Jeff

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 09:16:45 AM »
Ive been using the Gefell MV220/Mk250, and love them! (i also have the Josephson/mk221 caps) they are the absolute flattest mic I have ever heard! very sensitive too!

Another reccomendation for Gefells..Schoeps and many other companies use MG caps to do measurement tests.

Offline machinelf

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Gender: Male
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2006, 10:08:07 AM »
Great thread, thanks!

Offline divamum

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 411
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 11:25:16 AM »
Thanks so much for all this information!! +t
DPA4060
R09

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15745
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2006, 01:07:01 PM »
Great comparison.  Thanks for the writeup.  Interesting that the ellipsoid shaped LiteGuy baffle and head worn HRTF seemed more natural to you than the disk type baffles.  Makes me wonder how a spherical baffle would compare.  Thinking of something like the Shoeps sphere, the T.H.E. sphere or some homebuilt version with either flush mounted caps like the commercial versions or mics mounted right against the surface. 

Thanks for reporting your experiences.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2006, 02:41:58 PM »
Great comparison.  Thanks for the writeup.  Interesting that the ellipsoid shaped LiteGuy baffle and head worn HRTF seemed more natural to you than the disk type baffles.  Makes me wonder how a spherical baffle would compare.  Thinking of something like the Shoeps sphere, the T.H.E. sphere or some homebuilt version with either flush mounted caps like the commercial versions or mics mounted right against the surface. 

Thanks for reporting your experiences.

The Schoeps sphere also includes a fair amount of electronics and runs really big bucks.  I saw it in action a few years back at some orchestral concerts that Posthorn was taping for a group called the Wild Ginger Philharmonic, using a Nagra D which was about the super top of the line deck back then.  The orchestra is long gone, and I never heard any of the tapes, no idea what happened to them.  But that's about as close as I've come to hearing any of the spherical baffles.  I'd love to try one out someday.

Jeff

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2006, 02:53:08 PM »
I dont think the KA40 and ka50s contain any electronics, Jeff. They are 180 bucks or so. they are simply baffles.

you may be thinking of the KFM 360 which is a complete mic system.



Great comparison.  Thanks for the writeup.  Interesting that the ellipsoid shaped LiteGuy baffle and head worn HRTF seemed more natural to you than the disk type baffles.  Makes me wonder how a spherical baffle would compare.  Thinking of something like the Shoeps sphere, the T.H.E. sphere or some homebuilt version with either flush mounted caps like the commercial versions or mics mounted right against the surface. 

Thanks for reporting your experiences.

The Schoeps sphere also includes a fair amount of electronics and runs really big bucks.  I saw it in action a few years back at some orchestral concerts that Posthorn was taping for a group called the Wild Ginger Philharmonic, using a Nagra D which was about the super top of the line deck back then.  The orchestra is long gone, and I never heard any of the tapes, no idea what happened to them.  But that's about as close as I've come to hearing any of the spherical baffles.  I'd love to try one out someday.

Jeff

Offline muj

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1544
  • Gender: Male
  • Certifiable Nevaton Fluffer
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2006, 03:00:03 PM »
Great comparison.  Thanks for the writeup.  Interesting that the ellipsoid shaped LiteGuy baffle and head worn HRTF seemed more natural to you than the disk type baffles.  Makes me wonder how a spherical baffle would compare.  Thinking of something like the Shoeps sphere, the T.H.E. sphere or some homebuilt version with either flush mounted caps like the commercial versions or mics mounted right against the surface. 

Thanks for reporting your experiences.

The Schoeps sphere also includes a fair amount of electronics and runs really big bucks.  I saw it in action a few years back at some orchestral concerts that Posthorn was taping for a group called the Wild Ginger Philharmonic, using a Nagra D which was about the super top of the line deck back then.  The orchestra is long gone, and I never heard any of the tapes, no idea what happened to them.  But that's about as close as I've come to hearing any of the spherical baffles.  I'd love to try one out someday.

Jeff


i have seen german schoeps sluts selling their kf6 at various german sites, but asking them why they want to sell them, the reason is to get the kf360 which has better imaging, due to the angle between the omnis. the average price was 2900 euros, maybe northern consult still has one for sale.

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2006, 03:26:32 PM »
I dont think the KA40 and ka50s contain any electronics, Jeff. They are 180 bucks or so. they are simply baffles.

you may be thinking of the KFM 360 which is a complete mic system.




The pictures I've seen of the KA40 and KA50 on the Posthorn website show them not to be Jecklin-disk type stereo baffles at all:

"Acoustically modifies the sound of Schoeps omni transducers
Two sizes, which slip over the capsule and front end of the microphone body
 
These ball-shaped accessories slip over the head of the pressure (omni) transducers, as shown in the photograph. The KA 40 has a diameter of 40 mm, the KA 50 of 50 mm. They alter the sonic character of the microphone acoustically, as is evident by comparing the graphs of the CMC 62 (CMC 6 with MK 2) with and without the KAs. With the 40 mm sphere, the normally ruler-flat on-axis frequency response curve of the MK 2 is emphasized slightly (max. +2 dB) in the region between 1 kHz and 9 kHz. This effect is stronger still with the 50 mm sphere (max. +3 dB). This is not due to any change in directionality, as is sometimes supposed, but rather to the elevated response plateau which is achieved without sacrificing bass response.

Some engineers prefer to achieve this effect by using KAs instead of an equalizer."

So, not at all like the KFM360, which is the one I meant, and runs just under $15,000 at Posthorn.


 
 

 

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2006, 03:37:43 PM »
Yeah, I have a pair. (ka40) I thought you were talking about them, and that you were stating that THEY had electronics. Obviously I was wrong, so nevermind! ;D

I dont think the KA40 and ka50s contain any electronics, Jeff. They are 180 bucks or so. they are simply baffles.

you may be thinking of the KFM 360 which is a complete mic system.




The pictures I've seen of the KA40 and KA50 on the Posthorn website show them not to be Jecklin-disk type stereo baffles at all:

"Acoustically modifies the sound of Schoeps omni transducers
Two sizes, which slip over the capsule and front end of the microphone body
 
These ball-shaped accessories slip over the head of the pressure (omni) transducers, as shown in the photograph. The KA 40 has a diameter of 40 mm, the KA 50 of 50 mm. They alter the sonic character of the microphone acoustically, as is evident by comparing the graphs of the CMC 62 (CMC 6 with MK 2) with and without the KAs. With the 40 mm sphere, the normally ruler-flat on-axis frequency response curve of the MK 2 is emphasized slightly (max. +2 dB) in the region between 1 kHz and 9 kHz. This effect is stronger still with the 50 mm sphere (max. +3 dB). This is not due to any change in directionality, as is sometimes supposed, but rather to the elevated response plateau which is achieved without sacrificing bass response.

Some engineers prefer to achieve this effect by using KAs instead of an equalizer."

So, not at all like the KFM360, which is the one I meant, and runs just under $15,000 at Posthorn.


 
 

 


Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 03:45:59 PM »
Actually, you can get the KFM360 bare-bones for $5550, and its larger cousin the KFM6 for $6699, the $15,000 also gets you some extra figure 8 caps and a surround sound processor from Posthorn.  Maybe it's a bargain.

Jeff

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15745
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2006, 04:00:34 PM »
The 'basic' Shoeps sphere I was thinking of is the KFM6 - just a sphere with two flush omni caps, for a Shoeps price of course. 

The  KFM360 thing is wild.  It's basically the same sphere just a little smaller (supossedly for a wider recording angle) but is an entirely differnt animal since its actually 4-channels, two omini's flush mounted in the sphere and two fig-8's just above them and a fancy digital matrix & eq box.  Each omni/fig-8 pair is treated like a sideways M/S array and eq adjusts for low end fig-8 roll off etc.  You end up with a 4 or 5 channels surround output with whatever polar pattern/eq/rolloff you want for each channel.  All configuable in post if you record the 4 feeds before matrixing.  Losts of electonics and a whole nother ball of wax. $15k wheew!

Wonder if I could do the poor man's version with a R-4, an omni & fig-8 straped to either side of my head and some DAW matrixing!?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2006, 04:21:07 PM »
Wonder if I could do the poor man's version with a R-4, an omni & fig-8 straped to either side of my head and some DAW matrixing!?

Actually, Leonard Lombardo (Sonic studios) makes something vaguely like this, which you can combine with the LiteGuy or wear on your head for the ultimate in Geek Chic:

http://www.sonicstudios.com/index.htm#surround

for $3500 to $8500 bucks.  I guess you could even stealth it (good luck).

Jeff

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15745
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2006, 05:37:04 PM »
I guess you could even stealth it (good luck).

Maybe if you wear the 'full fro' wig over the whole kit.  Could would serve a giant windscreen to boot!

I've seen that thing on the Sonic Studios site.  I just wonder how much separation you would get with the surround (back) mics being so close to the main pair.  Lenonard's version seems more akin to that tear-drop shaped Holophone thing: http://www.holophone.com/home.html  Which I think uses the mini DPA's FWIW.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline WiFiJeff

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 980
  • Gender: Male
  • I tape therefore I am.
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2006, 09:50:48 PM »

 that tear-drop shaped Holophone thing: http://www.holophone.com/home.html  Which I think uses the mini DPA's FWIW.

Wild.  They have a NYC dealer (Dale Pro Audio) which is just down the street from me, I'll have to give it a look.  Love that mini HP4, should be perfect to make realistic audios to entertain my collection of shrunken heads.

Jeff

RebelRebel

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2006, 09:56:46 PM »
soundfield mics are supposed to be nifty too.

I wont deal with Sonic Studios on principle alone. The guy from there takes every opportunity to try to pimp his product and bash other companies in the process. YMMV. I dont like his business model.


Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15745
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: So How Does It Sound?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2006, 09:10:11 AM »
soundfield mics are supposed to be nifty too.

Soundfield mics seem like the closest relatives to the KFM360 pattern selection and surround-wise, just coincident instead of near-coincident-baffled and the ability to record ambisonics.  I'd love to hear a true ambisonic playback system sometime.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.091 seconds with 48 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF